[Spoilers] Elune talks!!! We finally hear/interact with Elune directly.

[Syegfryed]

I do hope my night elf and alliance fans friends are appreciating all the love, bias and focus Blizzard and the devs are giving to then lately.

I mean, they complained for years that they complaint about the bias and focus of the horde got, they must be rly happy when they are getting the same treatment the horde got so far, it must feel rly good when you are the focus of the story right? get development and cinematic all to yourself

[geco]

I would not say that this is entirely true, Tyrande does not toss away revenge entirely. This entire conversation about revenge vs renewal has been going on since 8.2.5 in Boralus.
Shandris thinks renewal is more important than revenge... but she also says that this does not mean that they forget about it
Maiev is all for revenge as expected...

In truth, according to the latest novel, Maiev wants less revenge than Tyrande. So it's not like he wants to start a war either.

[Hellspawn]

In truth, according to the latest novel, Maiev wants less revenge than Tyrande. So it's not like he wants to start a war either.

Thats true, I liked Maievs position the most. It was actually nice to see different viewpoints.

[Dhrizzle]

The disgruntled spirits are no wisps, usually, these are Highborn ghosts that for some reason did not leave the ruins they lived in before. I don't think Elune made them stay... that would be pretty weird.

There's also Prince Farondis's people living in Aszuna. My point is Night Elf spirits tend to linger quite often especially when they were slain en masse in a traumatic way. I'm not saying makes them stay but she could certainly whisk them to Ardenweald instead of letting them linger.

I would agree, but keep in mind that spirits can still change their covenant if they want to (for example some leave Revendreth for Maldraxxus)

I don't mean one of the main Covenants, I'm talking about Night Elf souls going to one of the countless afterlives beyond them.

[LuminaL]

well shit here goes my hope they keep her like an omni potent god and not some kind of enlarged humanoids that can die but somehow they are considered gods.

[Hellspawn]

There's also Prince Farondis's people living in Aszuna. My point is Night Elf spirits tend to linger quite often especially when they were slain en masse in a traumatic way. I'm not saying makes them stay but she could certainly whisk them to Ardenweald instead of letting them linger.

Farondis and his people are only there because Azshara cursed them. They actually want to die but can't.

I don't mean one of the main Covenants, I'm talking about Night Elf souls going to one of the countless afterlives beyond them.

who says they can't? We don't even know how things work for different covenants than the four main ones.

[vondevon]

There's also Prince Farondis's people living in Aszuna. My point is Night Elf spirits tend to linger quite often especially when they were slain en masse in a traumatic way. I'm not saying makes them stay but she could certainly whisk them to Ardenweald instead of letting them linger.

The Highborn spirits in Aszuna are specifically bound by a curse. Living spirits don't really 'haunt' in WoW in the way that you're implying.

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A spectator is by definition not a participant. If we accept it at its most literal then she's even less an actor in making her decision than she already was regarding 'renewal' or 'vengeance' as she's just watching this bs with the rest while Elune puppets her body.

Yeah I don't see the "choice" Elune offers Tyrande as being resolved within the cinematic. I read it as more forward-looking (i.e. you can continue to chase Sylvanas and suckle at my power until you explode, or you can use my power to save your people from the Maw). I don't think Elu/rande doing magic patty-cake with the Winter Queen to produce a new tear was the choice part, because Tyrande was not in control of herself in that moment.

The part that is confusing to me is that I can only assume Elune pulled the plug on Tyrande mid-fight with Sylvanas because Elune wanted Tyrande to live long enough to save the night elf souls, except Elune didn't know the souls were in the Maw until the Winter Queen told her after the fight. So there must be some yet-unrevealed reason as to why Elune would not allow Tyrande to kill Sylvanas. Without that reason, it is hard to understand why Elune would present vengeance as an option after having just denied it. In that regard, I agree that it seems like a bit of a false choice, but I don't think the choice was "blow up now with Sylvanas nowhere in sight or go save the souls I couldn't save when Teldrassil burned."

And to that point, I also don't think Elune earmarked the souls for Ardenweald. The burning of Teldrassil was not the original plan and only happened in response to that one elf telling Sylvanas "You can't kill hope". I think anyone would be hard pressed to argue that Elune tilted the scales toward the burning. It just happened and Elune was left with a decision. There probably wasn't much she could have done to intervene at that point to stop the tree being burned or ferry the living away from it, so the alternative was to ease their suffering and allow them to die as peacefully as possible. That's what Elune meant when she says "...in the wake of tragedy, I sent forth a cascade of souls to sustain you." Without knowing that the Arbiter was down for maintenance, Elune either concluded that through the Night Elves' inherent connection to Nature most of those souls would be sorted into Ardenweald anyway and allowed them to die, or she knew she couldn't stop them dying and somehow deepened that connection in their final moments (effectively a Property of Ardenweald stamp on their soul passports) so they would be sorted that way. Where she fucked up is that she didn't know the sorting wasn't happening.

And one final point: I keep seeing people assume that souls and anima are the same thing, and that Elune sent them/allowed them to pass to Ardenweald to be used as fertilizer in the Winter Queen's groves. Souls have anima which they accrue during their life, and it's the duty of each realm to extract it. Through this process, the souls are reshaped into the denizens we interact with. I think everyone has just gotten really used to seeing how anima is extracted in the Maw, which is different than anywhere else. Zoval doesn't have time to milk souls for anima. He's busy building a war machine so he tosses the whole soul in the juicer, or else extracts anima so quickly and thoroughly that the soul is shredded of its identity or consumed entirely in the process. Most of the time the souls just drop off their anima and move on, and at least in Ardenweald, they have a chance to be reborn and accumulate more anima.

[Traveler Voltin]

players with meta knowledge: Elune is an idiot and a failure.

so if no one in the shadowlands knew what was going then how do people expect Elune to know? also dont bring up she could have looked into it, the people of the shadowlands didnt even look into until it was too late.

people need to quit using meta knowledge to whine about things.

[Hardwing]

The Highborn spirits in Aszuna are specifically bound by a curse. Living spirits don't really 'haunt' in WoW in the way that you're implying.

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Yeah I don't see the "choice" Elune offers Tyrande as being resolved within the cinematic. I read it as more forward-looking (i.e. you can continue to chase Sylvanas and suckle at my power until you explode, or you can use my power to save your people from the Maw). I don't think Elu/rande doing magic patty-cake with the Winter Queen to produce a new tear was the choice part, because Tyrande was not in control of herself in that moment.

The part that is confusing to me is that I can only assume Elune pulled the plug on Tyrande mid-fight with Sylvanas because Elune wanted Tyrande to live long enough to save the night elf souls, except Elune didn't know the souls were in the Maw until the Winter Queen told her after the fight. So there must be some yet-unrevealed reason as to why Elune would not allow Tyrande to kill Sylvanas. Without that reason, it is hard to understand why Elune would present vengeance as an option after having just denied it. In that regard, I agree that it seems like a bit of a false choice, but I don't think the choice was "blow up now with Sylvanas nowhere in sight or go save the souls I couldn't save when Teldrassil burned."

And to that point, I also don't think Elune earmarked the souls for Ardenweald. The burning of Teldrassil was not the original plan and only happened in response to that one elf telling Sylvanas "You can't kill hope". I think anyone would be hard pressed to argue that Elune tilted the scales toward the burning. It just happened and Elune was left with a decision. There probably wasn't much she could have done to intervene at that point to stop the tree being burned or ferry the living away from it, so the alternative was to ease their suffering and allow them to die as peacefully as possible. That's what Elune meant when she says "...in the wake of tragedy, I sent forth a cascade of souls to sustain you." Without knowing that the Arbiter was down for maintenance, Elune either concluded that through the Night Elves' inherent connection to Nature most of those souls would be sorted into Ardenweald anyway and allowed them to die, or she knew she couldn't stop them dying and somehow deepened that connection in their final moments (effectively a Property of Ardenweald stamp on their soul passports) so they would be sorted that way. Where she fucked up is that she didn't know the sorting wasn't happening.

And one final point: I keep seeing people assume that souls and anima are the same thing, and that Elune sent them/allowed them to pass to Ardenweald to be used as fertilizer in the Winter Queen's groves. Souls have anima which they accrue during their life, and it's the duty of each realm to extract it. Through this process, the souls are reshaped into the denizens we interact with. I think everyone has just gotten really used to seeing how anima is extracted in the Maw, which is different than anywhere else. Zoval doesn't have time to milk souls for anima. He's busy building a war machine so he tosses the whole soul in the juicer, or else extracts anima so quickly and thoroughly that the soul is shredded of its identity or consumed entirely in the process. Most of the time the souls just drop off their anima and move on, and at least in Ardenweald, they have a chance to be reborn and accumulate more anima.

I agree totally here! While the real interepretation is for Blizz to give us, it makes most sense ... of course they could have been more clear in the cinematic, but hey, when did gods ever talk clearly?

[TyrianFC]

I have to say, no matter what you think about the cinematic, this is a fucking beautiful line

"By our hand, we may yet guide their souls unto their Spring".

Considering Ardenweald itself represents Winter/Spring (the dormant/death/rebirth aspect of The Great Cycle), its a beautiful, and literal, way of saying the Night Elf souls should be guided back from the Maw to where they belong: Ardenweald.

Its pretty easy to imagine a future, epic cinematic where this cascade of souls all arrive together, back in Ardenweald, where they belong, with the entire night sky and forest literally being lit up by their arrival. It would actually be a good end-of-expansion cinematic and bring the Burning of Teldrassil story full circle: All the remaining souls who perished, at long last, are finally guided back to their Spring, where they can rest before their eventual rebirth.

Imagine the epic music from this cinematic, with the visuals of thousands of spirits (wisps) arriving en masse in Ardenweald, like the archimonde wc3 cinematic - to be greeted by Elune, The Winter Queen and Tyrande with their arrival.

[Hellspawn]

I have to say, no matter what you think about the cinematic, this is a fucking beautiful line

"By our hand, we may yet guide their souls unto their Spring".

Considering Ardenweald itself represents Winter/Spring (the dormant/death/rebirth aspect of The Great Cycle), its a beautiful, and literal, way of saying the Night Elf souls should be guided back from the Maw to where they belong: Ardenweald.

Its pretty easy to imagine a future, epic cinematic where this cascade of souls all arrive together, back in Ardenweald, where they belong, with the entire night sky and forest literally being lit up by their arrival. It would actually be a good end-of-expansion cinematic and bring the Burning of Teldrassil story full circle: All the remaining souls who perished, at long last, are finally guided back to their Spring, where they can rest before their eventual rebirth.

This is a misinterpretation. This is what they said to us about Ardenweald:
"As the Emerald Dream represents the cycle of life between spring and summer, Ardenweald reflects autumn and winter, and a cycle of rest and hibernation."

We already collected all the souls of the Night Elfs from the maw. So I guess they will go back to the Emerald Dream or back to Azeroth.

[Raetary]

I remembered this from the Dreadlord infiltration book.

The adherents to Life are the most insidious of opponents, perhaps because their nature is so antithetical to our own.

Still, we learned much from observing the link between their plane and Ardenweald, and we have high confidence that a vulnerability has been identified.

Our operative has already gained the trust of her target.

I wonder if they'll use that as the reason why Elune had that big brain idea, that it was suggested by whatever Dreadlord is currently infiltrating the Life plane.

[geco]

I have to say, no matter what you think about the cinematic, this is a fucking beautiful line

"By our hand, we may yet guide their souls unto their Spring".

Considering Ardenweald itself represents Winter/Spring (the dormant/death/rebirth aspect of The Great Cycle), its a beautiful, and literal, way of saying the Night Elf souls should be guided back from the Maw to where they belong: Ardenweald.

You are not understanding the basics. If it belonged to Ardenweald Elune would not have condemned them or sent them to Ardenweald.

I think
Souls belong to the Spring Gardens.
That cinematic may be but to go to your real destination that would be the Spring Gardens

[TyrianFC]

I remembered this from the Dreadlord infiltration book.


I wonder if they'll use that as the reason why Elune had that big brain idea, that it was suggested by whatever Dreadlord is currently infiltrating the Life plane.

Makes sense to me. Next question is: Who is the female who is close enough to Elune to directly convince/fool her in this fashion? Could be a new, as yet unknown character.

Also makes Elunes decision to send the cascade to Ardenweald even more tragic -- but also more interesting, imo. She had the wool pulled over her eyes etc

[mysticx]

I remembered this from the Dreadlord infiltration book.


I wonder if they'll use that as the reason why Elune had that big brain idea, that it was suggested by whatever Dreadlord is currently infiltrating the Life plane.

Am i the only one who finds this "It was all the Dreadlords all along!"-twist incredibly tiresome?

Basically being dragged around by the nose since at least "Warcraft III" by the supreme 5D chess players of the universe, they're sooooo smart, they controlled everything in the history of ever, and even when we exposed one of them, that was part of the plan too, really!

Feels a bit... cheap, i guess, sure it was a surprise, but not a very interesting one, all things considered.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight]

Am i the only one who finds this "It was all the Dreadlords all along!"-twist incredibly tiresome?

Basically being dragged around by the nose since at least "Warcraft III" by the supreme 5D chess players of the universe, they're sooooo smart, they controlled everything in the history of ever, and even when we exposed one of them, that was part of the plan too, really!

Feels a bit... cheap, i guess, sure it was a surprise, but not a very interesting one, all things considered.

You're not the only one, I wasn't impressed to discover that Shadowlands changed their origin story and motives, and that they supposedly manipuled all of creation including the Burning Legion and the Light.

[Super Dickmann]

Depends on the context in question - spectators can certainly be affected by what they're experiencing or observing, and in a broader context could certainly be considered participants to a particular occurrence or phenomenon. Tyrande was most definitely a participant in this particular context, even though she relates a sense of being outside herself she is involved in the decision on a fundamental level - Elune literally puts it into her hands.

Tyrande makes an entirely different choice in the very same patch and when she attempts to follow through on it, Elune pulls the plug on her. Following this, she's on the verge of detonation and needs multiple people to come (and fail) to save her. Her choice is a complete farce, where only one option achieves anything at all and the other results in her dying having achieved nothing except killing Nathanos, a feat that could be just as easily accomplished by an airship or a particularly large tractor.

I would not say that this is entirely true, Tyrande does not toss away revenge entirely. This entire conversation about revenge vs renewal has been going on since 8.2.5 in Boralus.
Shandris thinks renewal is more important than revenge... but she also says that this does not mean that they forget about it
Maiev is all for revenge as expected...

Keep also in mind, the whole Night Warrior thing also warped Tyrande's mind, in the end, she attacks everyone, even her own daughter. So with a clear mind, Tyrande could have come to the conclusion that renewal is more important for now.

It's explicit that the choice made is on here and that this is where the Night Warrior story concludes. Tyrande can keep the power just like how Jaina kept the powers she got inexplicably for raid boss purposes after she converted to Anduinism permanently at the end of Kul Tiras but her actual arc of grievance is concluded. To even phrase 'vengeance' and 'renewal' as opposite elements reveals the hand of the narrative to those few who somehow expected this to end in any other fashion given BFA's mission to gut all ground level political conflict from the factions. Tyrande isn't some irrational lunatic pursuing personal revenge, she was fighting someone who at the time was a serious threat to everyone everywhere and who if killed as soon as possible would help others as well. Her doubts in the Horde aren't the ravings of a madwoman but the only rational conclusion one can come to after having their race be the repeated object of attack year on year regardless of which leader is in charge of the Horde, with the only result being the night elves continually losing people, land and influence. In the span of what are 20 years in setting they've gone from a continental power to vassals to humans a continent away.

As I point out repeatedly, the WC3 version of Tyrande who didn't have any extenuating effects on her mind of her own volition had zero trouble indiscriminately killing humans, orcs or even her own Wardens when they impeded her goals. Night Warrior Tyrande never takes any action against Horde forces not trying to kill her or who aren't explicitly involved with Sylvanas. Whatever the influence on her mind it produced someone more moderate than her during her introduction to the franchise when circumstances were considerably better for the night elves.

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Yeah I don't see the "choice" Elune offers Tyrande as being resolved within the cinematic. I read it as more forward-looking (i.e. you can continue to chase Sylvanas and suckle at my power until you explode, or you can use my power to save your people from the Maw). I don't think Elu/rande doing magic patty-cake with the Winter Queen to produce a new tear was the choice part, because Tyrande was not in control of herself in that moment.

I don't think this take holds water both because of the framing of the cinematic itself, with the tear not really materializing until Elune talks about the choice in question. Tyrande then goes on about renewal, love and peace to her fellow night elf. She keeps the power and there might be more to do with the night elf souls later on, but this is irrespective of the conclusion of Tyrande's conclusion which is her learning to appreciate her fellow man.

Elune doesn't learn about the souls going to the Maw during the cinematic itself, as she isn't surprised when the Winter Queen tells her, only regretful it came to that point. It's likely she learned it through Tyrande given that Tyrande traipsed through the Maw and fighting night elf soul agglomerations with Elune as her co-pilot. Suppose the following reading - Elune cares about keeping Tyrande alive and wants to pay her sister back after failing. She sabotages Tyrande during the fight with Sylvanas so that Tyrande doesn't die and she can then hijack her body to chat with her sister. She cares about Tyrande's position on this only in so far as Tyrande can 'choose' to make the right choice this go around and that choice is to do what Elune intended in the first place and help her sister and by extension herself. This may or may not be followed by some other use of the night elf souls by Elune but this no longer concerns Tyrande.

Regarding the rest of your post I actually agree with large portions and went on the headache-inducing exercise in piecing this together earlier in this thread to see if it internally made sense. Tl;dr it mostly does. Elune earmarking the souls for Ardenweald doesn't mean that Elune had the ability to stop Teldrassil or is somehow negligent for not stopping it - she has canonically not interefered in events much more relevant to both the night elves and the world at large than the destruction of one (1) city and its population. Additionally, provided the afterlife works fine, the means of their death unlike the Legion, Old Gods etc. preserves their souls and sends them on to the afterlife. For a goddess, that should be enough. Elune also not knowing the Maw was gulping up the souls makes sense as well as her only information comes from the Winter Queen, who also didn't know the source of the drought. Additionally, Elune can't skip Oribos due to the logistical way the afterlife works. Your comment about the difference between souls and anima is also true and a bit I didn't elaborate on but that fairly pushes that point.

The issue with this plotline isn't that the internal behaviour of the characters as presented to us, given the information they have doesn't make sense, at least for the Winter Queen and Elune. It's explaining Elune in the first place and that the resolution of a major point of drama ends up a wet fart where neither the victim (the night elves) nor the perpetrator (Sylvanas and the Horde) have much role as compared to secondary characters, the demystification of which needed more justification than this.

[Aucald]

Tyrande makes an entirely different choice in the very same patch and when she attempts to follow through on it, Elune pulls the plug on her. Following this, she's on the verge of detonation and needs multiple people to come (and fail) to save her. Her choice is a complete farce, where only one option achieves anything at all and the other results in her dying having achieved nothing except killing Nathanos, a feat that could be just as easily accomplished by an airship or a particularly large tractor.

Except you don't know how the road not chosen (Tyrande chooses vengeance over renewal) would've played out with Elune's involvement, so you can't really confirm it's a farce as you put it. The basic sequence of events as I see it as that Tyrande enacted the Night Warrior ritual and began to destabilize, but during her fight with Sylvanas in Ardenweald she directly called out to Elune, specifically telling her to grant her more power, but the presumed answer from Elune was to de-power her during the fight, which allowed Sylvanas' escape but also likely saved Tyrande's life as even more power would've likely detonated her.

What Tyrande was able to accomplish as the Night Warrior isn't really germane to her choice in Ardenweald - she's in a state of flux (and presumably considerable agony), but in communing with her goddess the unnatural rage aspect of the Night Warrior state is soothed away and she makes the choice with a more or less clear state of mind to renew her people and surrender the mantle of the Night Warrior, as opposed to retaining the mantle with Elune's sanction, and potentially stabilizing the power-set and being able to take the fight directly to Sylvanas and/or Zovaal. The basic choice was "save your people or become my direct avatar" and Tyrande chose to save her people instead of pursuing her vengeance.

YMMV as to whether she made the right decision, but I'd say it was pretty far from a farcical one. It would be a decision that would give most people considerable pause.

[TyrianFC]

Did anyone else get the vibe that Elune comes across as the 'little sister' here? Everything about the Winter Queen screams older sister. From her voice, tone, actual words, body language, actions etc. Elune seems like the younger, more vulnerable (and even perhaps more emotional) sister.

If true, it makes me wonder if whichever cosmic beings created these characters created the realms of Death (and Winter Queen) first, before creating their respective counterpart - bringing the realms of Life (and Elune) to existence.

[geco]

Did anyone else get the vibe that Elune comes across as the 'little sister' here? Everything about the Winter Queen screams older sister. From her voice, tone, actual words, body language, actions etc. Elune seems like the younger, more vulnerable (and even perhaps more emotional) sister.

If true, it makes me wonder if whichever cosmic beings created these characters created the realms of Death (and Winter Queen) first, before creating their respective counterpart - bringing the realms of Life (and Elune) to existence.

It looks like Tyrande's younger sister. And when she talks about the Kaldorei she seems like she's talking about her toys breaking.