DW vs. 2H? Not a question, giving info

[Stormslap]

At this current point in time with the most current beta build using a program called the hex tool

This tool used level 80 values for hit and crit but level 70 gear and level 80 talents


This means that your hit will be lower then it will be at 80 becuase the values are lessend.


Using warrior T6 gear as the equivelant becuase essentially it will be the same as our DPS gear, current 2H DPS using the build http://www.mmo-champion.com/talent/?...00000000000000
and the rotation, IT, PS, Degen, Oblit Deathcoil until out of runic power does 2590 DPS on a morogrim style boss with 80 values, it takes into consideration glancing and armor etc.



Using warrior T6 dual wiedling gear with 2 slow weapons, and the build http://www.mmo-champion.com/talent/?...00000000000000 using the rotation IT, PS, Degen, BS, IT, deathcoil until out of runic power does 2500 DPS on a morogrim style boss with 80 values taking into considertion armor glancing etc.



The one thing Hex lacks is the current runeforging buffs, wich the 2 stacking fallen crusaders will probably more then make up for the 100 DPS loss from DW'ing AS IT STANDS NOW DW'ing vs. 2H is a simple matter of choice, with 80 gear it may well pass it becuase we will have proper hit rating becuase we are not using 80 values with 70 gear.




I REITERATE DW VS. 2H IS A MATTER OF PREFERENCE

The reason DW can match with 2H for the most part is becuase of blood rune mastery, you have more blood runes, so essentially when somone else could use 2 blood strikes, you can use 4 while keeping the diseases on thus keeping them ticking for what they do. The tests are run in unholy and blood presence, the DPS was pretty much the same.
I prefer DW'ing and thats what I will do, 2H does outperform for once but not by enough to make me want to do so, I just don't like the slow pace of 2H and that is simply my choice but I hope this clears it up and kills the 2H vs. DW crap threads, the Hex tool well google it, not hard to find a very good tool for deathknights atm.

If somone could post this on the beta DK forums for me and give Stormslap of Greymane credit that would be great, I'm just a little forum banned for . shock way back : /

[Gestalt]

The Hex tool is a bit limited for any sort of authoritative theorycrafting, hardly a "final word", but useful nonetheless.
http://deathknight.info/2008/06/beta...sis-tool-v010/
This is also something of a dead subject on these forums, Stormslap. The numbers have been crunched (and we generally appreciate theorycrafting being accompanied by the supporting math) eight ways from sunday, with a wide range of variables, and the "magic number" seems to be around 9%: less than 9% to hit and 2h has the edge, DW getting closer to equivalent the closer both setups reach 9%. Past 9% (6% from gear, 3% from talents), DW starts to pull ahead.
And that's raw DPS, not even taking into consideration questions of tanking utility, etc.

[elidion]

The reason DW can match with 2H for the most part is becuase of blood rune mastery, you have more blood runes, so essentially when somone else could use 2 blood strikes, you can use 4

Blood Strike is instant and doesn't depend on the swing timer, a 2H weapon will have greater Blood strike damage since it is slower and has higher base.

This means that your hit will be lower then it will be at 80 becuase the values are lessend.

Hit is a calculation based on your weapon skill Vs your opponents Defense skill. The 3 level difference between a level 80 player and Boss(lvl 83) will still be the same as it was at 70, meaning you will need the same hit rating.

[Stormslap]

Blood Strike is instant and doesn't depend on the swing timer, a 2H weapon will have greater Blood strike damage since it is slower and has higher base.

Hit is a calculation based on your weapon skill Vs your opponents Defense skill. The 3 level difference between a level 80 player and Boss(lvl 83) will still be the same as it was at 70, meaning you will need the same hit rating.

Thats not what I meant with Blood strike, I meant blood rune mastery procs more, so more blood strikes, and I meant that its using 70 gear so it will has less hit rating then say 80 gear will have

[Stormslap]

The Hex tool is a bit limited for any sort of authoritative theorycrafting, hardly a "final word", but useful nonetheless.
http://deathknight.info/2008/06/beta...sis-tool-v010/
This is also something of a dead subject on these forums, Stormslap. The numbers have been crunched (and we generally appreciate theorycrafting being accompanied by the supporting math) eight ways from sunday, with a wide range of variables, and the "magic number" seems to be around 9%: less than 9% to hit and 2h has the edge, DW getting closer to equivalent the closer both setups reach 9%. Past 9% (6% from gear, 3% from talents), DW starts to pull ahead.
And that's raw DPS, not even taking into consideration questions of tanking utility, etc.

Well that generally supports what I said as to where their equal, I do apologize if they have been crunched alot I just still see alot of threads thought maybe some more info would help, also I'm not really going into tanking with this, this was just raw DPS sorry If that was unclear.

[Gestalt]

OH, no apologies necessary. I'd love to see the actual information as frequently proposed as the question is asked, and the repeat threads are beyond tiresome.

[Laessa]

Sorry i am a bit confused and unclear, but does DK can DW 2 big weapons? Also were these dps tests raid buffed, or just your own buffs?

[Windblade]

no DK's only DW normal one-handers
warrior's can only DW 2h's because of titan grip

atm its still preference on DW or 2handers, it also depends on which will give better stats, and dps, and/or tanking if thats what you wanna do

[Deleted]

Please refrain from using all capital letters in your topic's subject. Your thread will get noticed.

No need to yell.

[Laessa]

Thought so, i just wanted to know what buffs etc were used in this sim, seems to me Dk will do at least as much dps as a fury warrior, regardless.

[Takethecake]

Hit is a calculation based on your weapon skill Vs your opponents Defense skill. The 3 level difference between a level 80 player and Boss(lvl 83) will still be the same as it was at 70, meaning you will need the same hit rating.

Meaning you will need the same % of hit... not the same hit rating. It will take more rating to get 1% hit at 80, just like it will take more crit to get 1% ect... otherwise everyone would be running around with 700 defense or 60% crit in WoTLK

[Visadin]

he reason DW can match with 2H for the most part is becuase of blood rune mastery, you have more blood runes, so essentially when somone else could use 2 blood strikes, you can use 4 while keeping the diseases on thus keeping them ticking for what they do.


Above you state that as if you have a 1h rune weapon in both hands thus increasing your total runes to 12. i dont see how you get more blood strikes in just for having a slightly faster swing as the return from them are based off timers which is only altered by a % chance on hit. I imagine slow or fast weapons this is based off a simple PPM just like your weapon enchant. Thus you should get the same number of PPM from blood rune mastery with either of the weapons you choose.

If i missed something please clarify.

[Laessa]

Well if self buffed with u can do 2500 dps vs a boss, it is very nice. But i do not have a clue wich buffs were they using, i would imagine at least 5 stacks of sunders on the boss. Also the necrosis talent makes it so that 2 handed "white dmg" keeps up with dw i guess..

[Laessa]

Anyway if it is 2500 dps with 10 more talents, full buffs, aka retri pala, windfury, battelshout, leader of the pack, sunders, unleashed rage, drums and at least one heroism i am disappointed. A bshout from a warrior is still >10% str, plus they can TC and demo shout.

[murdibus]

Above you state that as if you have a 1h rune weapon in both hands thus increasing your total runes to 12. i dont see how you get more blood strikes in just for having a slightly faster swing as the return from them are based off timers which is only altered by a % chance on hit. I imagine slow or fast weapons this is based off a simple PPM just like your weapon enchant. Thus you should get the same number of PPM from blood rune mastery with either of the weapons you choose.

If i missed something please clarify.

Blood Rune Mastery is a 10% chance to proc when you hit a diseased target with melee, not a PPM.

[Visadin]

Even if it isnt ppm this is really streaky and cant be counted on for consistant dps hence *consistant* and i imagine necrosis will be similar to Seal of righteous or something like that where the slower weapons gain bigger numbers but even for a total DPS gain of equal assuming no misses and no crits?

[g2tegracer]

Even if it isnt ppm this is really streaky and cant be counted on for consistant dps hence *consistant* and i imagine necrosis will be similar to Seal of righteous or something like that where the slower weapons gain bigger numbers but even for a total DPS gain of equal assuming no misses and no crits?

Not any more streaky than say combat potency for rogues, which is iirc their second best DPS talent.

[Visadin]

Also the procs themselves will seem to hurt a constistant rotation as things are now becoming ready sooner and require more on the spot decisions. There is no cut and dried way to do it and they can very well cause GCD's to allow misses of other abilities or removal of useage in a rotation bringing in loss of DPS.

I am not sure what they were after with this but they are retweaking DK to more releasable state so maybe they will make it a more cut and dried choice.

[Kadvael]

the problem i can see being a dw tank is that you wil have need of +hit on your gear. and this stat will take slots f other usefull caracs like strength agility and stamina.

isn't it a bit expensive to get enough +hit on your stuff ?

[Mirro]

hm what about if you skill like this for dw?