About Divinity

[Copain]

Just thought I'd ask this question because it keeps popping up in my head.

People have recomanded going away from things like Ardent Defender and Devinity and saying that it's abetter idea to invest in things in the ret Tree for more damage (and thus more threat). This seems logical to me, but what if you don't need that?

I won't pretend I'm some "Pro" who has full Ulduar 25 Hardmode gear and I know how to play a Prot Pally the best and balh blah blah, but I find it very rare for a Prot Pally to complain about threat, even those who don't go down the ret tree and get those damage skills.

So my question is, if one doesn't have threat issues, and/or doesn't NEED to get those things for threat, is it still recomanded to get them because you can deal a tad more DPS (Which would help down a boss a bit faster), or should one invest in things to help them stay alive (Which would help in some of the harder hitting Ulduar bosses or when you have weaker healers).

[Xs]

Argent defender is skipped because it sucks
Divinity is reasonable if your healers aren't just over heal spamming you

[Copain]

Argent defender is skipped because it sucks
Divinity is reasonable if your healers aren't just over heal spamming you

WHY does is suck though? I find when the healers are worse, or if I get nuked or something that it can give people time to get me back up.

[Xs]

If you're below 35% you'll probably be 1 shot unless its trash, its really not worth 3 points at its position

[Copain]

If you're below 35% you'll probably be 1 shot unless its trash, its really not worth 3 points at its position

What about Gluth or a boss that hits fast and weak (Something like Patch, maybe Ingnus, haven't tried him lately)


Either way, what else would I put it into that would be worth it? Like I said, if we don't have threat issues..

[grymgroeth]

WHY does is suck though? I find when the healers are worse, or if I get nuked or something that it can give people time to get me back up.

It's trash because you shouldn't be under 35% on anything that doesn't stun the entire raid (Maex) and if you are, that little bit of damage reduction isn't going to save you. If AD was say a 2nd or 3rd rank talent it wouldn't be bad filler but as deep in the tree as it is, it's a waste.

[Zorbak]

Download the tankadin add-on, it will tell you how many times Argent Defender has saved your life, it's immensely useful.

http://www.wowinterface.com/download...Tankadin2.html Tankadin add-on

http://wowinterface.com/downloads/in...erPlug-in.html Argent defender addition.

Divinity isn't as useful as that 5% extra healed on you will most likely be over heal anyway, if you want know more about the theorycrafting and good talent builds you can't do better then Maintankadin.

http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/

[Copain]

I believe Argent Defender is useful as it has saved me, but I won't argue that much. If I tossed out those points, what Shoudl I invest in for less damage? Not many (if any) other talents I cna get for damage reduction, I don't have an issue with threat..

[xdwbx]

Ardent defender is extremely useful because it scales with our health pool. As our health pool goes up that 35% goes higher and higher, ie if you have 45k health raidbuffed, then it will take a hit worth 22.5k damage to kill you (after mitigation) if you are @ 35% of your health. It is clearly a situational talent that you dont want to have to use, but it has definitely been a raid-saver for me many times.

I personally take it all the time, though as you can see, there are naysayers who say its crap. One fight I can think where it would be useful is if you are MTing Mimiron during phase1 and hes nuking the hell out of you every 30 seconds. Where else are you going to put those extra points anyway? Id rather have AD than that 3% extra damage that I get from going further into the ret tree that is about as useful as the overhealing from divinity.

[Martini]

Like XS said, on trash this might actually help you. I have always specced into AD, it has always looked like a great talent to me. And I was about to try and bring numbers into the thread to show how it would help you. So after running those numbers, instead of wnting to post them to show off it's glory. I'm more inclined to do more research on it and possibly respec out of it. It actually doesn't look like that great a talent. But before I come to a complete Jugement on the talent, I'm going to be a little wise and do some looking around like I said.

Well really only 1 question. If you are healed out of this "danger zone" is there actually a buff applied to you that allows yo to keep the reduction you would have gained from being under 35% for any length of time or is it strictly only applied wen you are under 35%?

If the answer to that is no, then I'm afraid this talent just it my lack luster list. And thinking back on articles and posts I've read I remember things that make me think the answer is actually is no.

[Clockmort]

Like XS said, on trash this might actually help you. I have always specced into AD, it has always looked like a great talent to me. And I was about to try and bring numbers into the thread to show how it would help you. So after running those numbers, instead of wnting to post them to show off it's glory. I'm more inclined to do more research on it and possibly respec out of it. It actually doesn't look like that great a talent. But before I come to a complete Jugement on the talent, I'm going to be a little wise and do some looking around like I said.

Well really only 1 question. If you are healed out of this "danger zone" is there actually a buff applied to you that allows yo to keep the reduction you would have gained from being under 35% for any length of time or is it strictly only applied wen you are under 35%?

If the answer to that is no, then I'm afraid this talent just it my lack luster list. And thinking back on articles and posts I've read I remember things that make me think the answer is actually is no.

If you're healed above 35%, chances are you'll be leapfrogged to your death on a boss or any other hard hitting mob. There is no buff that you gain when knocked under 35% at all. If that were the case, then it'd be extremely useful.

[Bizarre]

If you are dropping below 35% health a lot, then "Houston, we have a problem."

[Martini]

If you're healed above 35%, chances are you'll be leapfrogged to your death on a boss or any other hard hitting mob. There is no buff that you gain when knocked under 35% at all. If that were the case, then it'd be extremely useful.

Yeah I found some of those posts I was refrencing. There is no buff, the only trigger to this ability is the fact that you dropped below 35%. And like i said I was running numbers earlier, and the sad truth of the matter is, this talent doesn't is not hold it's weight. I'll refrence link those post and explain it a bit more maybe tonight, after I finish my Glyph of Salvation project I'm working on. Found a place to host my blog ^.^, and a new place to host pictures. File Front is staying, but it is just not going to be rady anytime soo looks like. But anyway back on topic. AD is defidently on my lack luster list for now (notice I didn't say shit list)


Edit: Okay, now that my moping is over with I changed my mind again. Even though this talent isn't as good as I previously allowed myelf to think it is... I'm going o keep it anyway. I was looking at my build and trying to do one without it. There are 0 mitigation abilities I can replce it with. So go for threat? I'll replace minute mitigation when a warrior can out TPS me. until then Ardent Defender stays in my build.

XS, you might get a laugh out of this
And nthing is official on me doing that project yet

[Offhand]

The most compelling arguments for ardent defender and divinity can be found on maintankadin.

AD: Simply put, AD has been and will continue to always be worth spec'ing into. For its point investment, it mitigates roughly 2% of damage taken. Flat out damage reduction is something we can all appreciate. What else are you going to take at that point in the talent tree anyway? http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#sZV0tAbuMuo

What people forget is that AD mitigates the 2% of damage that would have killed you

Divinity: Divinity is another beast entirely. A fairly new tank would assume the 5% more healing received translates into a 5% easier to heal tank, this is wrong. Simply put, throughput via talents and scaling have made healers consider spellpower something secondary, a stat which will increase with gear level and that's all that's necessary. On the average fight, a healer wants to consider mana regen (crit, mp5, spirit, etc) and often times placement (haste) above spellpower. Think about how much overhealing the average holy light does in the first place.

Now, if you WANT you can put three points into divinity. We need three points of filler at some point to get further down the tree. All it does is make you feel better, but to each their own.

[Lumidar]

the Ardent Defender addon for tankadin is not accurate. it only calculates the hit that might've killed you but it does not calculate the previous hits that brought you down that low and if it was in between heals.

sure it's rare that ardent defender in itself will rarely prevent a killing blow but it reduces any damage when below 35% health

most prot pallys are around 40k HP fully buffed, which means 35% HP is 14k HP. Not many bosses hit for 14k or more on plate with 25k+ armor. there are alot less chances for a boss/mob to "Leap-Frog" over the 14k mark than it did in TBC when our health pool was half that.

[mitchimitch]

boss hit for 15-30k in ulduar you know (30k being special ability)

but yeah the sell point for AD is that you don't really have other place to put point in other then threat and we don't need that(I went 3/5 conv and 2/2 pursuit just for the added mobility as well as 20sec stun cd)

as far as divinity goes, most build only have 3pt on it, and i consider it as a buff for hots as other people are saying, most big heal will heal you to full or overheal anyway.

[Tyneside]

The people talking about how "AD SUX" are pretty ill informed. The fact of the matter is that AD has a very small effect, yes, but that that effect is almost 100% useful. Leapfrogging 14-15k HP is nearly impossible. I have tanked everything from Ignis/Razor through Hodir and nothing hits so hard as to consistently leapfrog the ability. I wish this thread had come up yesterday, I would have screen capped my AD use from the Tankadin addon.


No top end pally tank does new content without AD. While AD only prevents about 2-3% of damage across an entire raid, it will always be the 2-3% of damage that will cause you to wipe. Numerically the effect is minimal, but in practice that means that it is an invaluable asset.

Once content is mastered/outgeared it suddenly becomes wasted talent points. Now, rather than mitigating 2-3% of the damage you take it is only doing < 1%. If you want to take a page from the "pros" it is good when you're learning fights and bad when you've mastered them. But I generally don't gear and spec for the things I've mastered. I gear/spec for what is still to come.