Quick question about Slice and Dice

[Firebert]

http://www.wowhead.com/talent#fcIf0s...uZ0h:qVkVbqmcz

This is what I'm aiming for when I hit 85 (I'm currently 82).

What will be the maximum length of Slice and Dice (or, does the Improved Slice and Dice talent go first or second when calculating the length of Slice and Dice)? I'm trying to weigh up whether the extra time that the glyph gives is longer or shorter than the six seconds the Vendetta Glyph gives.

Thanks for your responses.

[Tripping]

Go 2/2 in that... and go combat

[Pancunchi]

You don't need to improve slice and dice if you got cut to the chase, about the durations I don't know I haven't played since September :/

[Firebert]

Go 2/2 in that... and go combat

I personally favour Assassination, as I don't like the quick combo point generation that Subtlety gives (via Honour Amongst Theives) nor the situational signature ability that selecting Combat gives (sacrificing energy in order to cleave is terrible when compared to similar abilities on other classes, making it a "do less" button).

And that didn't answer my question. >_>

[DerSenf]

You don't need to improve slice and dice if you got cut to the chase, about the durations I don't know I haven't played since September :/

This is still true. CttC refreshes your Slice and Dice every time you hit the envenom button, making SnD a fire and forget spell for Assassination. It's very rare to refresh it manually during a fight, and even if you have to, a 1 combopoint Snd without any enhancing talents or glyphs will to the job.

Tl;dr: You don't need to improve the lenght of your Slice and Dice at all when you play Assassination correctly.

[Firebert]

You don't need to improve slice and dice if you got cut to the chase, about the durations I don't know I haven't played since September :/

At the moment, I'm doing Expose Armor into Rupture, then Slice and Dice, then Envenom till Rupture drops on lowish HP targets. On bosses, I'm swapping Slice and Dice and Rupture, so with a bad dodge streak or Combo point generation (sitting on 4CP waiting for the energy for Backstab FTL) it does occasionally fall off (and I have to spend five combo points replacing it).

I'm guessing it'll get better with gear caps at 85. I'll swap to the Vendetta glyph in that case, and find somewhere else to put that last point (Deadened Nerves or something).

Thanks

[Tripping]

I personally favour Assassination, as I don't like the quick combo point generation that Subtlety gives (via Honour Amongst Theives) nor the situational signature ability that selecting Combat gives (sacrificing energy in order to cleave is terrible when compared to similar abilities on other classes, making it a "do less" button).

That combat button make it the strongest spec of any class for most encounters. Also, on fights such as Ultrax, being combat or Sub will suck due to no backstabs.
But for fights in which you can backstab, sub is better on paper.

But if you are really against both of those specs, despite them being better, then I have no idea as I havnt been Assasination :P

[Deleted]

Completely and utterly wrong. Why the hell do you want to increase SnD's duration when it's refreshed for FREE constantly? Waste of talent points and glyphs. Not really sure why you'd want to spec into Improved Expose Armor either. Haven't touched that skill since Cata launched.

What you'll want is this: http://www.wowhead.com/talent#fcIfzs...Zbhc:zqVrobmcV

1 point is movable from Deadly Brew into Deadened Nerves. Brew will let you slow the adds on Madness for free, while Nerves will assist your healers a little during progress. If your gear doesn't grant you enough Hit rating either you could move one point from Opportunity into 3/3 Precision. That's about as much freedom as you have.

Regarding your question; a fully specced/glyphed SnD will last about 41 seconds. But returning to my previous point, SnD doesn't matter AT ALL regarding Assassination. Don't misunderstand me; It's still one of the most important buffs you have. However, ideally, you'll use it once and it'll never ever fall off at all during the reminder of the fight. Which is why it's pointless to spec into.

The spec above is currently the only way to go.

[Firebert]

Also, I'm wondering if it's worth having so much put into Expose Armor, seeing as a Faerie Fire on the target seems to prevent me from applying it (even though at 5CP and with 3/3 Relentless Strikes, it's free).

[Kael]

Forego the EA, pop SnD first, and you should be able to get the envenom out before your initial SnD dies. Garrotte -> SnD Mut->5cp -> (pool)rup -> mut->5CP -> Env should get all your finishers rolling. If you can't keep the initial SnD that way, open garrotte/mut rather than using a 1CP SnD.

http://elitistjerks.com/f78/t110134-..._12_01_2011_a/

[Deleted]

Also, I'm wondering if it's worth having so much put into Expose Armor, seeing as a Faerie Fire on the target seems to prevent me from applying it (even though at 5CP and with 3/3 Relentless Strikes, it's free).

It's by no means "free". While it doesn't cost you any Energy, you're wasting 5 cp's that could've been a perfectly good Envenom.

Seems to me like you're having problems with your rotation due to over complicating it. You shouldn't use Expose Armor at all, really. Your rotation is simply this:

Get SnD running (and keep it refreshed with Envenoms) > Get Rupture up > Mutilate to 4/5 combo points > Envenom
Use Backstab instead of Mutilate when the enemy is below 35%.

That's it.
SnD, Rupture, Envenom. These are the only finishers you should focus on.

[DerSenf]

I sorta have to agree with Tripping: It might be your opinion and if you don't like combat or sub, thats okay. But the are the most effective specs currently, Assassination only shines on Madness heroic and maybe Sinestra.

I get the feeling that you are not a raiding person. Improved Expose Armor is not the greatest talent in the book, while it might sound very useful, Other classes have less trouble to apply the armor debuff and there should usually always be at least on person in a raid (especially LfR) that just reduced armor for you. If you're worried about the debuff not being applied in a 5-man, it won't make much of a difference there either. Most of your damake is magical (nature) anyways.

You can safely drop those points from Expose Armor and Recuperate (unless you're just soloing stuff) and go for the Opportunity Talent in the second Subtlety tier. The "optimal" raiding spec has 2/3 Precision and 3/3 Opportunity, thought the difference is not that high.
For Glyphs, Mutilate and Rupture are a must, depending on what you're doing, take either Backstab (for raiding) or Vendetta (for... i dunno... other things). If you're not going to use Backstab at all in the execute phases (not recomended), you can also drop the Murderous Intent Talent an spend them wherever you like.

[Meejum]

you dont have to spend 5 points putting up slice and dice, and should never use that many points on it, ever, as Mut. A 1 point slice and dice, followed by a 1point envenom would bump it up to a full duration slice and dice, because of cut to the chase. As long as you aren't missing with your envenoms, slice and dice should never fall off on a single target fight. Any strength envenom, from 1 CP to 5 CP will refresh slice and dice to full duration.

If you had spent a bit of time throwing rupture back on, or vanish/garroting, and for some reason didnt have any combo points on the boss and slice and dice was soon to wear off, just shiv once and then envenom, and you are back to full duration. Shiv, being far cheaper than backstab or mutilate, can be helpful to maintain your S&D uptime with, and you shouldnt really ever be waiting on energy for a single shiv, like you may have to wait on a mutilate.

[Kael]

I sorta have to agree with Tripping: It might be your opinion and if you don't like combat or sub, thats okay. But the are the most effective specs currently, Assassination only shines on Madness heroic and maybe Sinestra.

I may stand corrected by the OP if needed, but a level 82 asking questions about his rotation because he didn't research it doesn't strike me as someone optimizing his spec for heroic modes, but someone looking to have fun and do decently in the spec he's asking about.

[DerSenf]

I may stand corrected by the OP if needed, but a level 82 asking questions about his rotation because he didn't research it doesn't strike me as someone optimizing his spec for heroic modes, but someone looking to have fun and do decently in the spec he's asking about.

True, I admit I just forgot he is only 82 while writing my post. Looks like I got a little blinded by the statemens, why the OP doesn't like the other two specs, despite those reasons didn't had much weight.

[Firebert]

What you'll want is this: http://www.wowhead.com/talent#fcIfzs...Zbhc:zqVrobmcV

Why Nightstalker? I don't intend to be running about in stealth during fights, and would get far more use out of Improved Recuperate.
Why Backstab over Vendetta? Seeing as Ultraxion exists, you'd get more mileage with Vendetta (and more consistency everywhere else).

1 point is movable from Deadly Brew into Deadened Nerves. Brew will let you slow the adds on Madness for free, while Nerves will assist your healers a little during progress. If your gear doesn't grant you enough Hit rating either you could move one point from Opportunity into 3/3 Precision. That's about as much freedom as you have.

The extra point in Precision's 241 Hit Rating, which frees up (at 100% efficiency) 241 Mastery rating, which is up to 4.7% more Poison damage, over 7% more Mutilate/Garrote/Backstab damage... I'm not 85 and raiding yet, but I'll look and see what most of my damage is coming from and balance accordingly.

---------- Post added 2012-04-30 at 11:25 PM ----------

http://elitistjerks.com/f78/t110134-..._12_01_2011_a/

I don't like EJ, but not for Rogue-related reasons.

---------- Post added 2012-04-30 at 11:30 PM ----------

It's by no means "free". While it doesn't cost you any Energy, you're wasting 5 cp's that could've been a perfectly good Envenom.

Whilst specced into Improved Expose Armor, those 5CPs are instantly refunded. All that's lost is a GCD, I suppose.

Mutilate to 4/5 combo points

Why shouldn't I be always going for 5CP finishers (and getting the energy back from Relentless Strikes)? I seem to be lacking consistency when trying to execute my rotation due to poor energy generation (hence why Rupture currently sits at the front, for when my target dies I get energy refunded via Venomous Wounds). I always open with Garrote on unstunnable targets, and Cheap Shot on stunnable targets.

[DerSenf]

Why Nightstalker? I don't intend to be running about in stealth during fights, and would get far more use out of Improved Recuperate.

It's a filler talent to reach Opportunity. It's mostly useless, but there are not much better choices. Ans Opportunity IS good. It also helps you to get behind your target a little faster. If you're soloing, the reduced Stealth cd can also be helpfull if you forget about dots on yourself at the end of the fight.

Why Backstab over Vendetta? Seeing as Ultraxion exists, you'd get more mileage with Vendetta (and more consistency everywhere else).

Not every fight is Ultraxion. And even on non-Ultraxion fights, the Vendetta Glyph isn't always usefull. Vendetta itself might sound very strong for a beginner, but in reality it is pretty meh. Still, if you're not raiding, Vendetta Glyph will probably be okay for 5-man bosses.

The extra point in Precision's 241 Hit Rating, which frees up (at 100% efficiency) 241 Mastery rating, which is up to 4.7% more Poison damage, over 7% more Mutilate/Garrote/Backstab damage... I'm not 85 and raiding yet, but I'll look and see what most of my damage is coming from and balance accordingly.

The maths show that it does indeed make up for it. But as I already stated, the difference between 2/3 and 3/3 Precision isnt that high on singletarget fights. For heavy AoE, 3/3 Presicion might indeed be better, but honestly, AoE is rarely important.

I don't like EJ, but not for Rogue-related reasons.

Again, if this is your opinion, then fine. But If you want help, EJ is a good source. Most of the stuff posters here (including me) comes directly from EJ anyways.

[Firebert]

I may stand corrected by the OP if needed, but a level 82 asking questions about his rotation because he didn't research it doesn't strike me as someone optimizing his spec for heroic modes, but someone looking to have fun and do decently in the spec he's asking about.

I don't think I'll be taking my Rogue much past LFR this late into 4.3, and with my Fury Warrior and DW Frost DK both near-fully Cataclysmic, I thought I'd try my hand at something else, and got promptly put off by the other two DPS specs.

I levelled to 70 as Sub and the combo point generation just got unbearable. :/

[Deleted]

People like you get on my nerves, you re-roll a Rogue, ignore all the current best practices, decide to choose a non-viable spec then ignore all the advice on that spec as well. These things have been worked out since the beginning of cata if not before, go and read the EJ threads if you want the maths behind it.

---------- Post added 2012-04-30 at 11:42 PM ----------

Why shouldn't I be always going for 5CP finishers

Wow these noobs make me sick, we haven't used 5cp finishers for muti ever. Please learn something about the rogue class before you start challenging things.

[DerSenf]

I levelled to 70 as Sub and the combo point generation just got unbearable. :/

But you agree with me that a fast CP generation is a good thing, IF you can hanlde it, right?