Top 3 things seperating an elite raider from a casual raider?

[Gospels]

Are you an elite/heroic/realm/world first ret?

If so, what would be your three biggest pieces of advice to someone looking to push past the point of being a good ret to a world class ret?

What helped you become the calibur of player that you are? How long did it take you? Were you just always heroically gifted?

There seems to be such a steep seperation between good dps and great dps, I have always wondered what do the really great ones attribute this to, what do they do different than the rest of the players?

[Todyn]

1) UI - clean and neat UI helps to avoid the clusterfuck of your screen
2) Rotation - know it stone cold and be able to do it in your sleep. You should be paying attention to the boss mechanics and not worrying about what button to press next
3) Keybinds - To each their own, but have your main abilities bound so you don't have to click makes a worlds difference

[nightfalls]

Are you an elite/heroic/realm/world first ret? If so, what would be your three biggest pieces of advice to someone looking to push past the point of being a good ret to a world class ret?

It's actually pretty straightforward and some people vastly overestimate the difference. Here's what I would say for raid (I do not play Ret at this level but it is the same for everyone):

1) Time. This includes raid time (for world first/high ranks you will need upwards of 30+ hours a week, for world first expect to take time off of life for this) yes, but also off-time for theorycraft (do your own as well as read others), encounters, etc. Encounter research is helpful but honestly not as needed unless you're a raid leader. You have to know your class well though.

2) Class ability. You need to be really good at your class to the point where you can (almost) play it with your eyes shut. You should know all your class abilities very well, this includes your main rotation and almost all "utility" and personal/defensive abilities. Unfortunately also these days most roles have "meter obsession" (whether you like it or not) to a degree meaning you need to be able, no matter your role, to contribute good throughput.

3) Reactions. UI and Keybinds help a lot with this. Ultimately you have to react to things (think "video game skills") while it's actually more important in PvP than raids it's still needed.

[Bisso]

1) Time, it's one of the best resource a player can have at his disposal in this game, as heroic progression guilds normally go for 3-4 nights a week.
2) Patience, there's a very big difference between wiping a couple of times on a normal boss and calling it, and mashing your head over a boss for hundreds of attempts. I think that this would be my #1 problem.
3) Quick learning, while you can slowly learn a class by heart AND then jump into serious raiding, you HAVE TO understand a boss encounter rapidly, no one in your group will want to wipe a few times just so you can finally understand what kills you all the time. A quick learner won't let a mistake happen again, a good/hardcore raider will know what could kill him, what is the logical thing to do next and not rely on anyone to tell him what to do in order to do make it right.

[kaiadam]

1.) Good raiders respect the environment and mechanics of the encounter and execute them. Great raiders will execute them while optimizing play as well. Examples: you're clearing a Ji-kun nest and you see her cast feed young, but you're not going to finish clearing the platform before the feed hits you. Most decent players will just accept that they missed out on the feed young, clear the platform, then fly back and proceed. A great player will hit their flight button, float 2 feet off the platform while clearing adds, get the damage buff, pick up their feather from the ground, and fly back all on the same feather.

2.) Executing the perfect rotation is a trap. It's much better to execute an imperfect rotation while performing the rest of your duties than to go for a perfect one. To clarify, there is simply no perfect rotation that will take into account movement, the sudden appearance/disappearance of a cleave target, being forced to range, etc. A decent theorycrafting base would be nice so you can prioritize your abilities on the fly, but overall, it's generally better to just keep mashing your buttons without precise direction while paying attention than to tunnel your "perfect" rotation and do the minimum possible in the fight.

3.) Self examination is key. As a world class raider, I am fairly sure I perform to around 70% of my class/gear potential. I fraps our kills, and various other events, and examining the footage global by global, I screw up about once every 5-7 seconds on average. Maybe more in a complex fight and less in a simpler fight, but it happens ... a lot. It shouldn't be your goal to become perfect. It should be your goal to better yourself every time you play. Average players maybe tap into 30-40% of their character's power. It really boggles me the amount of time and effort people spend debating and arguing the benefits of certain secondary stats over others when the most optimized reforge is probably like 1.2% better than the second best. And there's some jerkwad hotshot on worldoflogs who just doubled your damage for that fight - there's no way perfect reforges are going to get you anywhere near that. Incrementally improve yourself. See what those #1-10 parsers are doing, and try your best to emulate them. Don't go overboard trying to do one particular portion of your gameplay perfectly (ie. the perfect rotation is a trap) while allowing other parts to slide.

[Faesroll]

1) UI - clean and neat UI helps to avoid the clusterfuck of your screen
2) Rotation - know it stone cold and be able to do it in your sleep. You should be paying attention to the boss mechanics and not worrying about what button to press next
3) Keybinds - To each their own, but have your main abilities bound so you don't have to click makes a worlds difference

This is all pretty basic stuff.

Mostly it's just personal skill but there's some factors I consider pretty vital.

Experience is really important, not necessarily at your class but at the game itself, know what your class is capable of but know what other classes are capable off as well. I've seen players pick up a class/spec really fast as a result of keeping up with other classes changes, rotations and general need to know stuff. I spend about the same amount of time reading up on other classes than I do on my own. Reading up on boss tactics in advance and preparing yourself for all possibilities that might happen during an encounter and knowing before you even pulled a boss for the first time what scenarios might happen and how to deal with them.

Not being afraid to try stuff out, just as an example we have 2 Rets in my guild. The other day he got HC TF Primordius trinket which would run really well at his gear level alongside feather. However he was blindly following that MrRobot(?) site which told him that the VP trinket was better, what followed was 40 minutes of me trying to convince him that from personal experience the Primordius trinket is our (arguably, but he didn't have any version of Spark) second best trinket. But he was so stubborn just blindly following that site instead of taking the time to actually test it out. He's not a bad player but I've been really unlucky with gear yet still I've consistently outperformed him.

Having good awareness, being able to do good dps is one thing but as a Paladin you have way more up your sleeve then just some damage, tossing out well timed LoH's, sacrifices, instant FoL's and to a lesser extend BoP's can be a lifesaver not only for you but for the raid as well. At the same time performing to the best of your ability on an encounter, in other words not dying/causing wipes. On our first Council Heroic kill this tier I LoH'd our DK tank after purgatory popped, possibly leading to a wipe.

All these things separate can be quite difficult to master and mastering just 1 or 2 of them will make you a decent enough player already, however mastering all 3 of them AND consistently is what makes the difference between a good Ret and a really good Ret.

[Prag]

1. Time - Elite raiders put in a ton of time. Theorycrafting, researching, practicing, progressing. The bulk of this is front-loaded each content patch.
2. Experience - The top players have been putting in the time for a while. Habit breeds better play.
3. Patience - Heroic Ragnaros.

[Vanderhuge]

1. Practice - The more you spend at the class, the better it's going to play and feel. A hardcore raider should have next to no reaction time when it comes to RNG abilities. This will also lead to you being able to make key non-DPS decisions quickly. You got someone that's dropped to 5% HP and death is coming? That Lay on Hands saves a battle rez, it saves someone a cast/global, and it gets you noticed. Naturally you're not doing this in cases where LoH is reserved for something.
2. Accountability - Something that is often overlooked, but great players know when they've made a mistake, they know how to fix it, and they know to never do it again. The best out there turn mistakes into positives and learn from them. What happens to people who repeat mistakes in hardcore guilds? They're never heard from again. I'm sure I don't need to go over how the masses react to mishaps in this game - or any other for that matter.
3. Research - As many others have said, you'll want to theorycraft, you'll want to be looking up the latest info from others, and you'll always want to be thinking of ways to better your game. While I'm on this same note - know what other classes are capable of and plan accordingly. Have a WeakAura set up for things like Stormlashes and Banners alongside trinkets/encounter mechanics.

[anaxie]

#1 Be king
#2 Beat the Game
#3 Collect BiS
#4 ??????
#5 Repeat

And yeah Awareness, Accountability, Pre emptive reactions, able to contribute to progress <strats, comp, ect.>, Awareness, Not a shit UI Hurp durp debuffs are hard, Awareness, Great dps, Awareness, don't be a faggot and try to pad / tunnel on progression.

Games easy specs easy. Don't do PTR still know everything. Big numbers friends. Big numbers.

[Todyn]

#1 Be king
#2 Beat the Game
#3 Collect BiS
#4 ??????
#5 Repeat

And yeah Awareness, Accountability, Pre emptive reactions, able to contribute to progress <strats, comp, ect.>, Awareness, Not a shit UI Hurp durp debuffs are hard, Awareness, Great dps, Awareness, don't be a faggot and try to pad / tunnel on progression.

Games easy specs easy. Don't do PTR still know everything. Big numbers friends. Big numbers.

Anaxie talk good, Goodest advice of all, Most bestest of all.

[anaxie]

1.)
2.) Executing the perfect rotation is a trap. It's much better to execute an imperfect rotation while performing the rest of your duties than to go for a perfect one. To clarify, there is simply no perfect rotation that will take into account movement, the sudden appearance/disappearance of a cleave target, being forced to range, etc. A decent theorycrafting base would be nice so you can prioritize your abilities on the fly, but overall, it's generally better to just keep mashing your buttons without precise direction while paying attention than to tunnel your "perfect" rotation and do the minimum possible in the fight.

3.) Self examination is key. As a world class raider, I am fairly sure I perform to around 70% of my class/gear potential. I fraps our kills, and various other events, and examining the footage global by global, I screw up about once every 5-7 seconds on average. Maybe more in a complex fight and less in a simpler fight, but it happens ... a lot. It shouldn't be your goal to become perfect. It should be your goal to better yourself every time you play. Average players maybe tap into 30-40% of their character's power. It really boggles me the amount of time and effort people spend debating and arguing the benefits of certain secondary stats over others when the most optimized reforge is probably like 1.2% better than the second best. And there's some jerkwad hotshot on worldoflogs who just doubled your damage for that fight - there's no way perfect reforges are going to get you anywhere near that. Incrementally improve yourself. See what those #1-10 parsers are doing, and try your best to emulate them. Don't go overboard trying to do one particular portion of your gameplay perfectly (ie. the perfect rotation is a trap) while allowing other parts to slide.

Wat

#2 thats what AoE and Single target rotations and priorities are for.

#3 No secrets hit buttons the same way I say to. Hit them hard and fast.

- - - Updated - - -

Anaxie talk good, Goodest advice of all, Most bestest of all.

Anaxie Crush

[Masochist]

effort
ambition
attitude

[anaxie]

effort
ambition
attitude
anaxie

much better

[Revvo]

I really agree with the things that daught said. High numbers are great, but a first kill is better.

1. Awareness.
I know everyone likes to do big numbers, but dead dps does no dps. Especially on progression bosses, keeping your wits about you will keep you alive. Don't tunnel, be aware of what's going on, and react to it. Obviously you need to be able to do your rotation while doing this, but being alive on progression is #1. Concentrate on executing the fight perfectly, and then when you start to wipe to enrage you can concentrate on maxing your dps.

2. Knowledge.
I think this one is huge. Knowledge of fights(from every role, not just your own) is a huge help in not only knowing what you should be doing, but in assisting others in their jobs, and being a help to the raid in general. Strats don't come from thin air. Knowing the fight and being able to contribute positively to the discussion is a huge aspect of being a valuable raider. Not only knowledge of the fights, but also knowledge of other class mechanics, and game mechanics in general is invaluable.

3. Attitude.
Raiding is a very persistant, and repetative in nature. Keeping a good attitude even though you've wiped at the same point 100 times to stupid mistakes is hard. This really goes hand in hand with patience. Keeping your head up and keeping the attempts rolling with 100% effort is important, especially when you're 300 wipes in. Bad attitudes corrupt guilds. If you watched the Final Boss stream with Rigg and Amy, they talked about toxic players with toxic attitudes and how they can have a negative effect on your guild's progression.

This one I didn't think was big enough to be in my top 3, but connections are pretty big too. Networking is a big part of how people get spots in guilds. Knowing the right people can help you out a bunch.

[pmgbro]

1. Time

2. Time

3. and uh Time

[Floross]

1. Practice

2. Proper UI setup

3. Hardware ( 20 fps vs 60 fps can be a huge difference ).

[nightfalls]

1. Awareness.
I know everyone likes to do big numbers, but dead dps does no dps. Especially on progression bosses, keeping your wits about you will keep you alive. Don't tunnel, be aware of what's going on, and react to it. Obviously you need to be able to do your rotation while doing this, but being alive on progression is #1. Concentrate on executing the fight perfectly, and then when you start to wipe to enrage you can concentrate on maxing your dps.

In a way I think this does tie in with your rotation/DPS ability. If you're able to do your main rotation (minus some quirks such as specifically timing abilities) comfortably (as mentioned "almost with your eyes shut") then you can be all the more aware while still maintaining a good % of your theoretical max throughput.

[Krekko]

People have said time as #1 so I'll go with a supplemental #1

#1 - A capable computer/accessories. You need a computer to "flawlessly"handle what you have coming to you. This includes any graphics or potential issues any new raids may cause you. You can't drop out to 1FPS for 4+ seconds or have an internet connection which isn't top tier. You can't be jamming buttons to get a single response from your keyboard or mouse. All of this needs to be reliable. This has caused me to step down from raiding and caused me from losing a lot, more than anything else so I'll put that at #1.

#2 Class knowledge and performance capability. You need to know your class and spells inside and out. You need to be able to know what would or should be best suited for when and be able to use it. You also need to be able to and willing to FULLY utilize your entire toolkit. This means taunting a boss from a distance and bubbling, or giving a raid member a Salvation, or using a cleanse when none is available, or utilizing any utility you have to help your raid progress. If you have something to offer the raid OFFER IT. Yes, your DPS Is important and you're expected to maximize on that, but you should be able to trick and max your way through encounters and help ensure a kill by not just pulling your weight, but then some.

#3 Going with #2 in many ways is a capable and functional UI. You have to know what t look for where to look for and when to look for it and be able to maximize on your classes abilities with minimal interference to your roll! The more you do beforehand means the less you have to do later! And that's a good thing. It needs to be clear and concise and functional. Someone once said to be someone should be able to understand your UI within 5 minutes of logging in. I don't know how much I share that sentiment but I think it's worth some weight.


I know it's the top 3 things but there is a smaller 4th that I'd add.

#4 Attitude and raid etiquette. You can have fun and mess around, but you need to be able to sit down and shut up when things need to get going. You also need to have the attitude, mentality and patience to sit there until a boss is down or raid is called WITHOUT complaining (within reason). Nothing killed me more than trying to progress and pushing and then someone getting a piss poor attitude which just annoyed everyone and ended up with an endless circle jerk of nobody wanting to be there anymore. You have to be willing to get it done and not be satisfied until it is. If it's not you need to be willing to figure out what you can possibly do to help yourself, or others, make it happen.

That said I wish I had a raid capable computer. WTB computer part donations

[anaxie]

People have said time as #1 so I'll go with a supplemental #1

#1 - A capable computer/accessories. You need a computer to "flawlessly"handle what you have coming to you. This includes any graphics or potential issues any new raids may cause you. You can't drop out to 1FPS for 4+ seconds or have an internet connection which isn't top tier. You can't be jamming buttons to get a single response from your keyboard or mouse. All of this needs to be reliable. This has caused me to step down from raiding and caused me from losing a lot, more than anything else so I'll put that at #1.

1Mbps download .25upload. 9800Nividia card / 2.3Ghz core 2 processor/ raided at 15 FPS max low with only projected textures.

Still took huge amount of rank 1s and minimal mistakes if any. Hardware a crutch

#2 Class knowledge and performance capability. You need to know your class and spells inside and out. You need to be able to know what would or should be best suited for when and be able to use it. You also need to be able to and willing to FULLY utilize your entire toolkit. This means taunting a boss from a distance and bubbling, or giving a raid member a Salvation, or using a cleanse when none is available, or utilizing any utility you have to help your raid progress. If you have something to offer the raid OFFER IT. Yes, your DPS Is important and you're expected to maximize on that, but you should be able to trick and max your way through encounters and help ensure a kill by not just pulling your weight, but then some.
I'd rather make sure the slow guy dragging his ass out of the huge aoe survives if hes pretty low and i have no faith in a healer when I have an infinite mana pool. Feel like grips are highly underused priest wise.

#3 Going with #2 in many ways is a capable and functional UI. You have to know what t look for where to look for and when to look for it and be able to maximize on your classes abilities with minimal interference to your roll! The more you do beforehand means the less you have to do later! And that's a good thing. It needs to be clear and concise and functional. Someone once said to be someone should be able to understand your UI within 5 minutes of logging in. I don't know how much I share that sentiment but I think it's worth some weight.

75% of total wipes in progression are from retards having a bad UI and can't see shit because ADDON MALFUNCTION or their shit isn't setup in a useful manner. Debuffs should be clearly visible if not the player is a horrible failure at their character.

I know it's the top 3 things but there is a smaller 4th that I'd add.

#4 Attitude and raid etiquette. You can have fun and mess around, but you need to be able to sit down and shut up when things need to get going. You also need to have the attitude, mentality and patience to sit there until a boss is down or raid is called WITHOUT complaining (within reason). Nothing killed me more than trying to progress and pushing and then someone getting a piss poor attitude which just annoyed everyone and ended up with an endless circle jerk of nobody wanting to be there anymore. You have to be willing to get it done and not be satisfied until it is. If it's not you need to be willing to figure out what you can possibly do to help yourself, or others, make it happen.
To each their own. on a difficult boss people need to stfu imo esp if they fuck up alot or die in the early phases of shit that every already has down.
The attitude of trying to parse when it means not dpsing an add or being a dumbass while there is STILL PRGORESSION is one of my biggest player peeves. Just one shot the goddamn farm boss so we can work on shit that matters.

That said I wish I had a raid capable computer. WTB computer part donations

Some stuff n shit

[Deleted]

Stop confusing casual with mediocre / stupid. I used to be a hardcore raider, the 5 days+ a week and realm first kind. For quite some time now I've gone casual, which means I play / raid whenever I have time to instead of Sunday through Thursday from 8PM. I still play at the same skill level, with the same type of UI and whatnot.
With that said there is only one thing separating them ... time spent and commitment to the game.

Now if you're talking about comparing a good player to a mediocre or an exceptional to a retard .. that's what most of you have listed ... which is bad.
There's plenty of skilled casuals as well as a lot of idiots raiding 5 days a week.