Responses from Celestalon on beta warrior changes

[winning131]

I know it says he is a “Technical Game Designer on World of Warcraft. Balance! Tuning! Spreadsheets!” on his twitter account, but the responses he has made about the beta changes to fury don’t really make sense (heroic strike being removed because the “simple nuance” of being off-GCD does not separate it enough from wild strike).

When I googled him I came to a thread about his response to not enough CC needed in MoP dungeons, especially at the start of the expansion, which also had a sense of “I know better what the general population of wow wants and you being above average means you could not possibly understand what players want from the game.”

Has he always been known to blow off players who enjoy challenge in this game and not give responses to valid concerns such as those related to the current dismantling of MoP fury in beta. The live rotation has so much depth for skilled players but does not prevent players of all skill levels from progressing because the rotation is not punishing if you get the overall goal of the spec. I love change and discovery and was hoping for interesting changes for WoD, not this butchering of our class.

His recent response on the front page about WS and placing it off-GCD also seems like he doesn’t want to even try it because it would mean admitting he was wrong (“It'd feel worse with WS off the GCD. You'd have a *ton* of rotational deadtime. Would feel extremely slow.”)

How does it being off-GCD simply mean more down time? The only difference it makes is that we can squeeze more abilities into CS and then treat it like on-GCD when CS is not applied (I am assuming the 0.5 s CD does not stay since it should probably not been applied). Does he think that the majority of players are too “dumb” to come to a similar conclusion and therefor they should not give them the chance to screw it up?

[Retsef]

Let me ask you this question.

If you dropped WS off the GCD, what would you be using in its place on the beta?

[Darkfriend]

Let me ask you this question.

If you dropped WS off the GCD, what would you be using in its place on the beta?

Nothing. That's part of the issue.

[Retsef]

My point exactly.

[Celista]

When I googled him I came to a thread about his response to not enough CC needed in MoP dungeons, especially at the start of the expansion, which also had a sense of “I know better what the general population of wow wants and you being above average means you could not possibly understand what players want from the game.”

He was like that well before his promotion, trust me. In his defense, he usually does know his stuff...although no one is infallible.

[Khorm]

There was a definite overlap between HS and WS in some cases that would warrant either being removed. People are too used to 5.4 Fury with near 100% BT crit and RB's taking up GCD in CS window. WS is a lot funner to use in Beta than HS is now and there will be more times to use it.

[Jalopy]

Let me ask you this question.

If you dropped WS off the GCD, what would you be using in its place on the beta?

Whirlwind.
Alternatively the question is irrelevant, since allowing us to dump off the GCD simply means they can lower the rage cost to compensate or move another ability to make fury like live.

The whole "Trust me you'll love it/it's better this way" is just him not wanting to admit fault.

[winning131]

Let me ask you this question.

If you dropped WS off the GCD, what would you be using in its place on the beta?

Just because it is off-GCD does not mean you cant use it just like an on-CD ability during "rotational downtime" outside of the CS window, as stated in my post. The only difference is that you can ALSO use it like we do with heroic strike on live to cram as much damage into the CS window, seeing how ideally wildstrike is not used while CS is up on the target. Basically wildstrike does what wildstrike AND heroic strike do live in MoP.

The main reason for the post is to point out how Celestalon responds just like you have, not actually engaging in conversation with the reasoning provided and blowing off the point entirely.

[Retsef]

To be frank,
- I don't do Fury, I play prot, and probably badly by many assessments.
- I don't have Beta so I'm only going off vids and reports

In saying this, I believe that without adding another ability - which they don't appear to want to do - that simply taking WS off the GCD won't solve the problem.

Swapping in Whirlwind as Jalopy suggested would make complete sense to me, and would work in the rotation I'd think.

I also beleive that just complaining about something - WS with a 0.5 GCD for instance without offering more of a solution as to what to replace it with is not productive.

For my 2c on the WS@0.5 malarkey, I play from Australia, so a 200-300ms ping means that there is no way that short of a spell time is feasible for me.

Maybe make Colossus Smash Debuff take WS off the GCD and put WCD at a standard GCD normally, so it functions how and when we want it and still consumes GCD's properly outside CS?

[Archimtiros]

Ok a few misconceptions to sort out here. The beta is too unstable for me to play right now anyways.

First on the topic of Heroic Strike v Wild Strike and why Heroic Strike was removed
There is a very real conflict between them both costing 30 rage while one is on and the other is off the GCD. While this is easy to sort out and the rotation works out to become very smooth and consistent (with higher levels of gear), the conflict is still there and they don't like it. This is also why we saw Wild Strike get buffed so much, on live it is only barely more powerful than HS and there is not a whole lot of loss dropping it completely from the rotation and only using Heroic Strike.

Heroic Strike was removed for two reasons.
First: They didn't like the conflict between Heroic and Wild Strike. Was there another way around this? Yes, they could have simply reduced WS damage.

Second: They wanted to remove a button from Fury and Heroic Strike was the best one. Removing Wild Strike (or replacing it as the Off GCD button in place of HS) would have done absolutely nothing to change the rotation, as we would have simply used Whirlwind (also costing 30 rage) on the GCD in its place, leading us right back to the first problem. Keep in mind this is not the style of rotation they want.

Third: Frankly, they don't like Heroic Strike. This isn't speculation but fact (please don't ask). Why is anyones guess, but from what I infer they simply aren't in favor of mixing on/off GCD abilities. Why is it ok for Gladiator? Hell I don't know. Maybe because their rotation is so tight they cant afford to add another button on the GCD to dump rage, and changing an existing button would have implications on the tanking rotation? I'm not going to bother, lest we talk ourselves right out of having at least one well made spec.


On the subject of Ghostcrawler v Celestalon
Ghostcrawler was never a "class designer". He was a Lead Systems Designer. Specifically systems design is everything that is not level, story, quest, PvP or encounter related. His team handled everything from mechanics to items to trade skills to achievements to UI design, etc.
Yes he had a hand in class design but so did many developers who were not specifically on that team (for example, the lead raid encounter designer has a long history of input on the Shaman class).
Celestalon was hired specifically for his work with an older SimCraft type program prevalent during Wrath of the Lich King. He is a class designer, who balances in-game spells and abilities after they have been run through Blizzards own internal programs.


The tweeting and developer feedback
Ghostcrawler didn't "bring us" anything, and he was not ever solely responsible for the way specs were built, all the good mechanics, the ranged mobility while dpsing race, Seal Twisting, Rend, LttS or your mother saving money by switching to Geico.
Likewise, Celestalon isn't solely responsible for most of the new things either, although he has a big hand in it for sure. He is simply one part of the team that works very closely with many other developers (such as the PvP devs).

Ghostcrawler grew into fame and legend because he became the voice of developer feedback during Wrath PTR. Not because he was in charge of it, simply because he wanted to do it and nobody else bothered to (keep in mind this is before Twitter even became really big as it is now), and it expanded on to twitter as time passed.

Likewise, Celestalon is not the endorsed voice of Blizzard. He is not told to spend a certain amount of time giving feedback or anything of the like. He does it simply because he took up the mantle from GC and because he wants to, while the other developers do not care to (as much, we are seeing more and more of them get into it).

End of the day, these are guys that are at least as passionate about the game as we are. They don't all play as much, some don't play at all, but there are more hardcore raiders among them than you'd think.


Beta Fury v MoP Fury
MoP Fury is great. Warriors almost unanimously agree. However (and this simple speculation on my part) it is not the style they want for Fury. While it is a very tactical and well made they want to include two things that it simply doesn't have.

First they want to introduce downtime, not rotationally such as with current Fury when you let one GCD after every BT go instead of filling it with WS; but they want us to dynamically transition between quick spending (via WS spam) and pooling. I can't say I like the system, I think it is in fact very awkward whereas MoP Fury is very fluid, and we all know the issues with 0.5s GCD (especially if you are Australian!), but that is their design intent.
This makes it feel "furious" but still keeping some amount of downtime and "rest period" if you will. Again, I'm not defending it and I don't particularly like it, but looking at it from a design point of view, I see what they are trying to accomplish.

Off GCD abilities simply do not lend themselves to a rotation that has open GCDs, in fact it makes the off GCD ability completely extraneous. Sure you could use the off GCD ability in place of a GCD but then again, what is the point of it being off the GCD?

With the set up we have, there is simply no room for an off GCD ability, even during CS for extra burst. With a short CD on WS there simply isn't enough rage to fill GCDs and off GCDs during CS. If WS was cheaper to allow it, then we would just be filling more GCDs outside of CS to the point where we are GCD locked again, something they do not wish us to have (though they do allow that playstyle through use of the talent UqT). There is no good middle ground.
At best, the only way it would work out is by using UqT if we simply spammed that and RB during CS, along with our off GCD ability to spend rage. However this now makes Wild Strike a useless part of our rotation and requires the use of that talent, so again... what is the point?


Now this writeup actually got longer than intended but once the words start flowing....
I simply wanted to provide some insight and clear up a lot of misconceptions floating around this forum in particular. It isn't nearly as easy as "put WS off the GCD guys!" or "give us Heroic Strike back!" that does very little in the grand scheme of things and to correctly understand you have to keep the entire rotation in mind, as well as the developers intent. There are a lot of things they could do, but at the end they want to stick to a specific type of playstyle, good or bad.

[Deleted]

Seriously you guys like current fury spec?
I think it is horrible... the hwole concept of pooling rage and use it every 20 seconds ist ridiculously stupid.

I am so glad they introduced the glpyhe for CS to get rid of that horrible design for a class.
i'm not feeling like a savage berserker but like a tactican carefully judging every strike and move I make, that is exactly the opposite of what fury should be like.

I tested fury in MoP so far and the ,5sec wild strikes feel actually extremely great. You feel like you're rushing out attacks like a mad squirel and after them you hit with an even more devestating attack ... so yeah I like the way it is now.

[Jalopy]

Seriously you guys like current fury spec?
I think it is horrible... the hwole concept of pooling rage and use it every 20 seconds ist ridiculously stupid.

I am so glad they introduced the glpyhe for CS to get rid of that horrible design for a class.
i'm not feeling like a savage berserker but like a tactican carefully judging every strike and move I make, that is exactly the opposite of what fury should be like.

I tested fury in MoP so far and the ,5sec wild strikes feel actually extremely great. You feel like you're rushing out attacks like a mad squirel and after them you hit with an even more devestating attack ... so yeah I like the way it is now.

I want you to know that people like yourself are why I'm such an asshole.

[Archimtiros]

Seriously you guys like current fury spec?
I think it is horrible... the hwole concept of pooling rage and use it every 20 seconds ist ridiculously stupid.

I am so glad they introduced the glpyhe for CS to get rid of that horrible design for a class.
i'm not feeling like a savage berserker but like a tactican carefully judging every strike and move I make, that is exactly the opposite of what fury should be like.

I tested fury in MoP so far and the ,5sec wild strikes feel actually extremely great. You feel like you're rushing out attacks like a mad squirel and after them you hit with an even more devestating attack ... so yeah I like the way it is now.

To point out the obvious. You are still doing what you dislike. Pooling rage to use every 20 seconds and (at least you should) be managing your rage "tactically".
The glyph offsets this somewhat, but doesn't really change anything between MoP Fury and Beta Fury. You still hit them with a lot of attacks either way, except in MoP Fury you are using an extra button, Heroic Strike; and with Beta Fury you are simply spamming one button, Wild Strike, a lot more.

The main issue people have is with the 0.5s Wild Strike because it is extremely sensitive to lag and twitchy fingers.

[Khorm]

Whirlwind.
Alternatively the question is irrelevant, since allowing us to dump off the GCD simply means they can lower the rage cost to compensate or move another ability to make fury like live.

The whole "Trust me you'll love it/it's better this way" is just him not wanting to admit fault.

Or the community just being ridiculous. Heroic Strike has never been anything special and to hold a spec to ransom over keeping it is dumb.

[Unholyground]

Also current fury sucks in low level gear

[Jalopy]

Or the community just being ridiculous. Heroic Strike has never been anything special and to hold a spec to ransom over keeping it is dumb.

Nobody (whose opinion is worth two shits) is complaining about heroic strike being removed because it's an iconic ability. They're complaining because it removes the ease of rage control we have.

[Deleted]

To point out the obvious. You are still doing what you dislike. Pooling rage to use every 20 seconds and (at least you should) be managing your rage "tactically".
The glyph offsets this somewhat, but doesn't really change anything between MoP Fury and Beta Fury. You still hit them with a lot of attacks either way, except in MoP Fury you are using an extra button, Heroic Strike; and with Beta Fury you are simply spamming one button, Wild Strike, a lot more.

The main issue people have is with the 0.5s Wild Strike because it is extremely sensitive to lag and twitchy fingers.

The glyph makes CS an 20 sec debuff with a 20 sec cooldown, so I don't see the point of pooling rage anymore but just using it when you have it.
Which should also counter against the issue of button sensetivity or lag.

I fail to see where the doomsday like issue is that some people are advocating.

Personally I hoped that they would get rid of CS which leads to all the issues and bake the damage into our normal skills. Maybe Bloodthirst which hits like a wet noodle.

[Banchou]

Seriously you guys like current fury spec?
I think it is horrible... the hwole concept of pooling rage and use it every 20 seconds ist ridiculously stupid.

I am so glad they introduced the glpyhe for CS to get rid of that horrible design for a class.
i'm not feeling like a savage berserker but like a tactican carefully judging every strike and move I make, that is exactly the opposite of what fury should be like.

I tested fury in MoP so far and the ,5sec wild strikes feel actually extremely great. You feel like you're rushing out attacks like a mad squirel and after them you hit with an even more devestating attack ... so yeah I like the way it is now.

Or you have a really low ilv or don't know to play as Fury to say something like that. So spam a button like current Combat Rogue feels "great and furious"? But you see, Combat have mechanics and talents to keep the spam viable and with high damage output without wasting and overcapping resources. Fury don't have that, so you will need to think way more to use WS and calculate how many you can use without mess things and your DPS be a crap.

You see, people want Fury stay as MoP one on WoD because it is fluid and do competitive damage, not because it separate "mans from childrens". You want be the new Shadow Priest? I don't!

Our current best DPS spec is Prot Glad Stance, and when a DPS-to-be spec is more realible than the 2 true DPS specs, something is very wrong...

Well, on topic:

Well, I'm polishing my Prot shield already, no way that I'll be able to play as Fury with 0.5 WS with my ms. I only hope that Glad Stance is fun to play, I don't wanna change my main toon because all specs are boring/unplayble.

[Deleted]

You're right.
I don't play fury because I hate that playstyle. I have played fury in classic and BC but now, no. Since Cata and MoP it is crap, atleast for me, I hate CS and the whole spec being tinkered around these 6secs!

However, numbers are not yet tuned so DPS comparsions are stupid. All that matters at the moment is how the spec feels and I personally like the WS mechanic. It might need to be tuned a bit more, for exemple using more rage and doing more damage so we don't cap as easyly but as I have said, if you take the CS glyph into account there is no need to pool rage anymoe since the CS debuff is on all the time.

You will just use the rage when you have it and all you need to take care of is your raging blows.
I find this way more fluid and way more forgiving than the current stupidly mop rotation that centers around CS and building up 2 RBs +120 rage.

This is not an intuitive playstyle nor is it realy fun to basically do autoattacks for 20sec than unleash hell and again do autoattacks.
Also, MoP fury is balanced around th eneed to spam off gcd Heroic Strikes to top DPS, because it is off gcd. in WoD fury will be balanced around normal strike rotations, so where is the problem?

You can't compare MoP dps with WoD dps at this point, just focus on how the rotation feels and for me, after I have tested it in beta, it feels solid.

[Deleted]

What part of "hit wildstrike 10 times in a row" feels great to you?

I can't understand how anyone with more than 3 braincells would find that fun or solid? It's fucking on-par with Arcane mages, there's no depth, no rage management and nearly nothing to track at all.