Bring the player not the class

[Planetdune]

This seemed to be the stance of Blizzard a while back. Why do I find myself searching for a second priest and DK for Heroic Zul? Why is it so much easier with 2 warlocks and solo runners on G'huun?

Now I am sure these fights are possible with a less ideal setup but not having the two priests on Zul just makes it so much harder that, at least for us, it seems you NEED to have them. Thing is we unfortunately only have 1 priest on progression raids and need to be lucky and get a pug every week. This all seems against the "bring the player, not the class" mantra..

[Kuruption]

That mantra has been dead for a while.

[HuxNeva]

It used to be that a player was a class, even spec.
Modern WoW assumes players can switch specs and class at the drop of a dime

[Aurora]

It's an incentive to raid in balanced teams covering every class and rewards larger raid sizes with stronger coverage, I'm fine with it in certain situations and particularly later heroic bosses.

[killwithpwr]

Ion said sometime in the past year that this mantra is no longer their goal.

They are now trying to focus on class uniqueness more.

That's part of why the Mage, Priest and Warrior buffs came back and the DH and Monk debuffs were introduced.

[Deleted]

That mantra has been dead for a while.

The mantra was always dead. Even if all classes have the same utility, it would be about dps. Atleast utility could give an exuce to bring an ele shaman.
Back in the day the problem was "bring the player, not the spec". E.g it was really annoying to find a ele shaman or demo lock for spellpower back in Wotlk.
But bringing any shaman or Lock isn't too difficult.

I think it's ok for mythic and harder bosses to have atleast one of each class in your team.

[Deleted]

In that case, Spirit Link should be class-wide. It's only utility Shaman is brought into raids for.

[Millyraynge]

It should be bring the player and the class.

bring the player with all classes.

[Hablion]

People who believe the Mantra bring the player not the class are delusional at best

[Great Destiny Man]

This is something that is repeatedly taken out of context. The first time the phrase was coined there was severe stacking issues in raids (most notably the whole 5 shamans per raid for Hero/BL + Group buffs). To a large extent that was dismantled in the WotlK buffing structure where buffs were made raid wide but also shared with other classes.

Nowadays what you find is specific classes being useful for specific fights, rather than their utility being god tier for the entire raid. Blizzard are ok with that philosophy as a whole, though not to the point it cheeses mechanics too much (biggest example being Rogues in ToS for the Avatar fight).

[Deleted]

This seemed to be the stance of Blizzard a while back. Why do I find myself searching for a second priest and DK for Heroic Zul? Why is it so much easier with 2 warlocks and solo runners on G'huun?

Now I am sure these fights are possible with a less ideal setup but not having the two priests on Zul just makes it so much harder that, at least for us, it seems you NEED to have them. Thing is we unfortunately only have 1 priest on progression raids and need to be lucky and get a pug every week. This all seems against the "bring the player, not the class" mantra..

You're living in the past, it's not 2009 anymore.

- - - Updated - - -

This seemed to be the stance of Blizzard a while back. Why do I find myself searching for a second priest and DK for Heroic Zul? Why is it so much easier with 2 warlocks and solo runners on G'huun?

Now I am sure these fights are possible with a less ideal setup but not having the two priests on Zul just makes it so much harder that, at least for us, it seems you NEED to have them. Thing is we unfortunately only have 1 priest on progression raids and need to be lucky and get a pug every week. This all seems against the "bring the player, not the class" mantra..

You're living in the past, it's not 2009 anymore.

[krl]

And yet this is to when you look at "reasonable" constraints of raiding MM Uldir: Vectis, Fetid and Mythrax difficulty increases a lot the more melee you have, with 4-5 being the reasonable max. Zul asking for 4+ rogues. G'huun asking for lock stacking, ideally 4...

[MrKnowItAll]

Ion said sometime in the past year that this mantra is no longer their goal.

They are now trying to focus on class uniqueness more.

That's part of why the Mage, Priest and Warrior buffs came back and the DH and Monk debuffs were introduced.

I guess that if your class sucks ass its counted as being unique,and thus the mission is complete.What blizzard do not realize for some reason is that you cant have classes that dont bring utility.Dps warrior is horrible in high M+ content just because of this and they know it.But still they are not doing anything about it.Bringing that battle shout and winning 3% ap in comparisation to the scroll is nothing.And to think that they were considering nerfing arms warrior a lot just shows how terribly out of touch they are.

[God Save The King]

They've mentioned that they've dropped that ideology because it lead to a great deal of class homogenization. Their goal now is to give each class an area where they shine, and obvious weaknesses, so you can seek out specific roles for your team.

I do a lot of M+, so, as an example, there are some affixes that prefer some classes. Demon Hunters are generally considered great because of their massive AoE damage and decent single target. However there are weeks where you need burst, single target, or the ability to hold back AoE, which is where Demon Hunter lags behind. Bolstering comes to mind. Lots of dungeons with pulls where there are a bunch of weaker mobs around a big mob. Demon Hunters can basically do no damage during those pulls since most of their damage is also cleave/AoE.

[M1r4g3]

This seemed to be the stance of Blizzard a while back. Why do I find myself searching for a second priest and DK for Heroic Zul? Why is it so much easier with 2 warlocks and solo runners on G'huun?

Now I am sure these fights are possible with a less ideal setup but not having the two priests on Zul just makes it so much harder that, at least for us, it seems you NEED to have them. Thing is we unfortunately only have 1 priest on progression raids and need to be lucky and get a pug every week. This all seems against the "bring the player, not the class" mantra..

That hasn't been a thing since WoD/legion, the skill cap to play your class has been lowered to MOBA levels, basically 3 buttons that you can press in almost any order without much dps loss compared to the ''perfect'' version. Now what that means is that there is not much difference between a good and mediocre player(class-playing-wise) which in turn makes it more worth to get a mediocre player with the perfect class than a rank 1 shaman. People remember MoP classes fondly because they were engaging, had a higher skill cap and could do ''everything'', so a great player could actually compete with other classes even if his class wasn't good.
What Ion said worries me, it sounds good on paper ''we want classes to be unique and have unique strengths'' in reality tho that just amplifies the issue of class stacking and needing specific classes for specific things(which is exactly the problem you're describing, and is a terrible thing to exist in a casual/semi hardcore raiding environment where not everyone has 5 alts they can play to fit the role), and lets be honest, does it feel good when the game mechanics carry you? I played an alt rogue on zul mythic for example, yeah its fun the first time seeing those 100k+ burst windows feeling like a god pressing those 2 buttons, but what about the 16 other people in my raid? Did they have fun not being able to touch the adds? Did the frost mage have fun not being allowed to frozen orb the adds? Did the frost dk have fun not being able to dragon the adds? No, they didn't. Same thing applies to other bosses and m+ aswell. I don't know about you guys but i think it feels pretty shit that the best player is not allowed to be the best in most situations due to extreme class limitations.

[TheViper]

And yet this is to when you look at "reasonable" constraints of raiding MM Uldir: Vectis, Fetid and Mythrax difficulty increases a lot the more melee you have, with 4-5 being the reasonable max. Zul asking for 4+ rogues. G'huun asking for lock stacking, ideally 4...

We are currently progging on M Zul, with 2 rogues, one of those being a alt. It has definitely pushed the ST dps requirements but we are pretty close and will likely get it on sunday. So while its true rogue stacking was a thing, and still makes it much easier, average gear levels are now at the point where the fight can be done with a much more "regular" composition. Its just harder, which it should be being after fetid.

We did almost all the encounters with non ideal setups, fetid first kill was with 7 melee, same with vectis, zul as mentioned with 2 rogues.

So while certain compositions make things easier, all the encounters are doable, even with non ideal comps, it just takes a bit of extra thinking/strategy that the guild might have to work out themselves.

[Great Destiny Man]

I played an alt rogue on zul mythic for example, yeah its fun the first time seeing those 100k+ burst windows feeling like a god pressing those 2 buttons, but what about the 16 other people in my raid? Did they have fun not being able to touch the adds? Did the frost mage have fun not being allowed to frozen orb the adds? Did the frost dk have fun not being able to dragon the adds? No, they didn't. Same thing applies to other bosses and m+ aswell. I don't know about you guys but i think it feels pretty shit that the best player is not allowed to be the best in most situations due to extreme class limitations.

I'm interested in doing the mechanics, whether I score high on DPS is irrelevant. If frost mage or frost DKs get that bummed out for not being able to go ham on adds then they need to learn some restraint. As a Boomkin I have to be super careful with all my abilities on that fight as majority of spells I cast have inbuilt cleave. That being said it doesn't phase me not being able to hit Starfall for big numbers, as long as boss dies I'm happy.

[M1r4g3]

I'm interested in doing the mechanics, whether I score high on DPS is irrelevant. If frost mage or frost DKs get that bummed out for not being able to go ham on adds then they need to learn some restraint. As a Boomkin I have to be super careful with all my abilities on that fight as majority of spells I cast have inbuilt cleave. That being said it doesn't phase me not being able to hit Starfall for big numbers, as long as boss dies I'm happy.

Most people do care how they perform tho, the ones that don't are usually the tanks/raid leaders that just sit there doing nothing waiting for the dummies to stop failing on the mechanics. There's a reason why waiting for tanks to get threat isn't a thing anymore and that's because of that restraint, didn't feel good to have to wait for 3 sunders and neither does not being able to use your abilities to their full potential. I don't see how needing to just do the mechanics correctly is better than needing to do the mechanics correctly AND doing your rotation correctly?

[Great Destiny Man]

Most people do care how they perform tho, the ones that don't are usually the tanks/raid leaders that just sit there doing nothing waiting for the dummies to stop failing on the mechanics. There's a reason why waiting for tanks to get threat isn't a thing anymore and that's because of that restraint, didn't feel good to have to wait for 3 sunders and neither does not being able to use your abilities to their full potential. I don't see how needing to just do the mechanics correctly is better than needing to do the mechanics correctly AND doing your rotation correctly?

If your aoe rotation serves no purpose other than higher damage, that's not performance. That's padding pure and simple.

If your damage is being maximised at the points where it needs to be then that's all that matters. Also you aren't doing your rotation correctly if you're dumping damage into points where it isn't relevant.

[M1r4g3]

If your aoe rotation serves no purpose other than higher damage, that's not performance. That's padding pure and simple.

If your damage is being maximised at the points where it needs to be then that's all that matters. Also you aren't doing your rotation correctly if you're dumping damage into points where it isn't relevant.

Most classes aoe rotation IS their st rotation, there is no option to turn it off, so no its not simple... and in other cases they could get a st dmg buff if they for example dot up the adds, but too bad, some other class gets a higher st buff than yours so i guess they can suck it up and not press some buttons, right? Sounds fun.
And while i share your mentality now, i know most other people don't and will pad whenever they can cause the game is in fact competitive, more so on a personal level than on a guild progress level.
But this is my entire issue, people HAVE TO pad and cheese stuff in order to rank high rather than just play their class close to its full potential, because of this type of class design where a mediocre player is not much different than a good one rotation-wise because classes have been pruned to hell.