Saurfang - why do we need him?

[VladlTutushkin]

The point of this thread is simple - why do we need Saurfang. I thought about posting this in Alliance category but i dont want to turn it into some kind of one sided discussion. However it DOES leans closer to Alliance anyway. So i saw plenty of Horde players being mad with Saurfang "helping Alliance" (though lets avoid entire army of Night Elfs and newly added character instantly switching to the Horde without any clear or logical reason). But why Alliance shall be... glad that Saurfang decided to help us? Or at least shares goal of killing Sylvans with us? You see, since MoP we faced interesting situation - it seems that only reason Alliance still exists and not yet completely annihilated is because some elements of the Horde DONT WANT THAT to happen. So if Saurfang was not as riddled with PTSD and had no conscience to speak of and just agreed with Sylvanas Alliance would be doomed "post factum" since only reason Horde will stumble on the way to victory is once again: infighting. So i want to ask - why Alliance should rely on the whims of the Horde leaders to survive?
Why cant Alliance for example not wait for Horde to start infighting but decisively strike or at least defend valiantly agains the oncoming attacks? Not just "weather the storm" but actually win and push Horde back showing strength? Or for example even pushing back so hard that Horde has to settle the differences and fight back , showing that starting the war with massive strike is not equal to winning it but also uniting the Horde in logical, understandable way? They have to combine "pragamtism" of undead and battle prowess of Orcs and shamanism of Taurens and all the honor and dishonor to even the war again. That would be interesting. So... What Alliance thinks of Saurfang? What Horde thinks of such scenario?

[formerShandalay]

I think there's more than one answer to this.
Anduin seemed to think he could actually take Sylvanas down all by himself (or rather, Alliance only) and underestimated the Horde in his equation. Or maybe he thought the Horde wouldn't go along with her as much as they seem to. But in the cinematic he really seemed to only just come to the conclusion that the Alliance alone (even with the addition of Kul Tiras) would not be enough. It was foolish of him to think Sylvanas would be such an easy target, but well inexperienced, too many hopes and dreams in his dead, not enough realism. And lots of "promises" to fulfill by pretending to be like his father and making good on his threats and promises again ("...if you ever...[etc]... we will end you", just to name one.)
So Anduin sees Saurfang as a chance, because he suspects that Saurfang is not happy with Sylvanas either. He goes asks him, leaves the door open and hopes Saurfang can work some kind of miracle in a situation where he himself could not. Naive, but again... it's Anduin.
Someone like Shaw may actually see letting Saurfang go exactly as what you propose. Set a rebel loose, give him the opportunity to stir shit up and watch your enemy implode. Go in, wipe up the rest and boom, you got yourself a victory. If everything goes well, the rebel leader may actually die alongside the faction leader as well, so you won't even have to A) put up with him once he finds out you used him for something more than what you told him and b) kill another opposing leader. You have an enemy that is torn apart with chaos, paranoia, civil war. What more could you hope for?

From a Horde point of view this is a lot more complicated.
We know that the leaders of the Horde have become more and more alarmed with what Sylvanas is doing, but have not yet intervened, mainly because they seem to fear Sylvanas finds out (in 8.1.5 there seems to be some dialogue in a questline suggesting Sylvanas has spies literally all over the world and watches every place everywhere except for Theramore) and also they probably don't know who to trust. None of them brings up the topic, so everyone just assumes the others might be ok and by bringing it up themselves they may also be ratted out to Sylvanas by the others, who didn't say anything. All of them fear for their people in case Sylvanas gets angry with them.
So, they aren't a unified group against Sylvanas and may never be or at least not anytime soon. If Saurfang manages to gather some forces that are actually able to do something about at least some of the repercussions they may face, they may rally to him, because they probably don't like being pushed around by Sylvanas.
So after that it depends on how strong Sylvanas's hold on some of them really is. If they can unify most of the Horde in rebellion against Sylvanas, they may win decisively and the Horde, while weakened, may remain strong enough for the plan to be a disappointment to the likes of Shaw (for the reason I mentioned up above), but ok for Anduin for example. This may actually lead to some fracturing within the Alliance.
If, however, Sylvanas has an ace up her sleeve and can hold on to maybe half of her troops and maybe even to some surprise racial leader, the fight within the Horde will be longer, cost more and will weaken the Horde significantly.
Another thing to consider would be if Saurfang comes back, wants them to start a rebellion, but they decline, because they fear the alliance might crush them when they start infighting in the middle of a war. This would seem quite logical. Th problem with this is that if they wait until the war is over, they will never get the chance to rebel at all, because for Sylvanas to declare the war against the Alliance over, Stormwind must be a Forsaken city and under her control and that would mean she has one more kingdom under her control. If she and the Horde took out Kul Tiras beforehand she even has two. She could just march over the remains of whatever is left of the remaining 'rebel' factions.

So, in my opinion it depends on what Saurfang can bring along to a rebellion. If he gathers up the Outland Mag'har, the Alterac Frostwolves and maybe some others Blizz come up with, it's the best bet for the 'rebels' to join him and oust Sylvanas quickly and decisively. Everything else leads to the destruction of the Horde.

[Nathasil]

I think you are totally wrong on your premise. Saurfang is not "there for the Alliance". The Alliance is a totally passive, uninteresting plot-device in this whole thing...and arguably, the Horde is not that important either. It is about a conflict between Sylvanas and Life. The Horde just happens to be closer to the action.

Saurfang was added because Blizzard knew that many players on the Horde who actually consider what their character takes part in and do not follow a psychopath's orders blindly simply because she wears a red tabard needed some glimmer of hope in all of this. Think back to what they said after the (unexpected!) reveal of the "Old Soldier" cinematic. It was along the lines of "There are still characters stepping up for what it really means to be Horde. What you should believe in if you are Horde."

Obviously, many players back then misunderstood what Blizzard meant....they saw the cinematic and thought "OK, he pulls himself together in the end and follows our glorious Warchief Sylvanas to fight the Alliance! FOR THE HORDE!"...but that is not what Blizzard wanted to tell them with this character.

I think even when players finally understand what Blizzard wants to tell them with Saurfang, they will ignore it, because accepting it would mean to acknoledge that Alliance or Horde are really not important in the end. In the end it is important what YOU (=your character) stands for and if you are still able to look in a mirror the next morning. It is just about you and your honor. How others treat you and how you treat them. Not about Blue or Red.

That's the message. And clearly a very vocal part of the playerbase does not like it because they are fine with Blue vs Red and inoring everything else.

[Super Dickmann]

The Alliance do not need him, they're already overwhelmingly in the lead.

The Horde does not need him, our cast is cancerous enough without a follower of the God-King who spared not one but two Alliance leaders because muh honor.

However, the Alliance do directly benefit by freeing him, knowing he's going to intensify the internal conflict within the Horde and accelerate the timetable of their victory. Resources spent on a civil war are resources not spent on fighting the Alliance, which is even more essential when the Alliance already have a decisive advantage. Is this Anduin's motive? God no, he just wants to make friends. But it is what he will achieve when he and whatever sadsack becomes Warchief thanks to Saurfang's actions make peace. It'd be the achievement of Anduin's goals through subversion.

@Nathasil

People aren't ignorant of Blizzard's grade school tier message. They just rightfully despise it and have successfully lobbied Blizzard to dunk on it by giving Sylvanas options in two successive patches, delaying the inevitable turn against her and making the story funnier and more nonsensical in the process when it does pivot to that point. The PC not only can support Sylvanas, they're actually obligated to support the Old Gods, who are more evil, as part of the 8.1.5 questline, so much for the PC as a moral agent. Disregarding that the PC depending on his class routinely eats souls and raises undead, putting him well beyond the supposed heinous crimes that we need to get rid of Sylvanas for.

No one gives one fuck about a message about love, peace and harmony in a game where every single problem is solved through violence and core game systems place the Reds and Blues against one another because that's what's, wait for it, fun in a game about two factions.

[owbu]

Just from a history perspective: it is much easier to defeat/occupy/pacify a country, if you have parts of the population on your side.

Also, war isn't really about "could I technically do it without this advantage". Having the horde kill itself instead of your own people seems like a strategic no brainer to me. Sauerfang has 0 value as a hostage (Sylvanas wants him dead) but he could do some damage as a resistance fighter.

(Also the current storyline sounds pretty close to what you are describing. Horde did one suprising Blitzkrieg attack catching the alliance off guard. No they rallied and they are putting pressure back onto the horde (forcing Sylvanas out of her home continent, destroying her fleet, bringing the offensive back to Kalimdor).

[Dagoth Ur]

It might not be Anduin's motive but it most likely Shaw's motive.

I'd actually like if Anduin's and Shaw's dynamic would be explored a bit more. While on the surface Anduin's waging war like it's a Miss Universe competition, if underneath it's actually Shaw who keeps the gears grinding, that'd actually explain a lot.

[Dagoth Ur]

In all honesty Anduin is not waging war, he is caring for refugees and just approving big actions. The war is waged by Shaw and Wyrmbane with the help of the player and the occasional input of Jaina.

Now if only he'd let them win too after they've done all the heavy lifting, that'd be nice!

But yeah, you're right. Apart from SI:7's oopsies here and there, Shaw and Wyrmbane are actually surprisingly okay in my book.

[Weeps]

As someone who doesn't read lore and plays alliance...

I see Saurfang as the Horde Warchief that the Horde deserves. Much more than Baine.

He is an old school Orc that just loves to fight and kill. Reminiscent of Viking Berserkers.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

we don't

perhaps not by Orc standards.... but from human standards, he 's old, but i guess human standards don 't matter to orcs

[Powerogue]

Why cant Alliance for example not wait for Horde to start infighting but decisively strike or at least defend valiantly agains the oncoming attacks? Not just "weather the storm" but actually win and push Horde back showing strength?

Because while they were trying that, Sylvanas's increasingly supervillainous tactics were succeeding, depleting troops to dangerous levels. Stormwind is currently barely defended.

Unlike MOP, the division isn't happening. Not enough to form any serious rebellion, at least. Why just wait for the Horde to "inevitably" turn on itself when you can release a last ditch effort to cause it?

[VladlTutushkin]

And thats what i am talking about. As you recall most of her “genius plans” are working because every alliance character gets mentally castrated and forgets simplest things. Why not write Alliance as competent once instead of doig this hamfisted “splinter” scenario again? Oh i bet you gonna says something amongst the lines of “hur hurr cuz Olianz weak”.

[Super Dickmann]

And thats what i am talking about. As you recall most of her “genius plans” are working because every alliance character gets mentally castrated and forgets simplest things. Why not write Alliance as competent once instead of doig this hamfisted “splinter” scenario again? Oh i bet you gonna says something amongst the lines of “hur hurr cuz Olianz weak”.

They did in this patch. The Alliance undo everything the Horde do in their war campaign. Sylvanas's incredibly retarded Derek plan fails isn't stopped by the Alliance only because it's stopped by internal sabotage first.

That does come after the Alliance leave their brain at the door in Lordaeron, but that's what happens when all strategic geniuses are just the people who borrow the community brain that evening.

[Zandalariprelate]

They wanted to sell some orc statues in the store and nobody remembers Thrall anymore

[VladlTutushkin]

Derek plan is retarded to begin with, true. What she planned to achieve? There are three living Proudmoores: 1) Thandred - captain of a single ship who got lost and considered dead before and nothing happened. 2) Katherine - ineffective and unpopular (she managed to get all three main Houses plotting against her and also was just as blind as a Demon Hunter in terms of choosing councilors) who also just retired in favour of Jaina. So she is just an old lady now. 3) Jaina. Chances of a mindwashed assasin killing a frost mage of her caliber are not even laughable, they are non-existant. And even if he does kills her then Kul’Tirans will elect a new Lord Admiral, this is an option, they have their “gathering” of nobles. Fleet will still exist and thats what matters. Plus if Rastakhan’s death was actually “a boon” to fighting spirit of Zandalari then death of Proudmoores would just be the same shit to already quite “hordophobic” nation.

[KaPe]

The best part is the collaborative leadership. Wyrmbane at every step seeks to consult with all his operatives and come to a plan through consensus. Even though our characters cannot voice an opinion, the general feeling of open communication creates an illusion of agency. This then stands in stark contrast to what the Horde players have to suffer.

Horde has Nathanos, constantly complaining and treating everyone like a peon with brain damage. It's especially jarring in raid, where he goes "what are you waiting for?!" while we're stuck waiting for him to clear some impassable obstacle (and skipping a cutscene does nothing to speed it up). Or going all "why isn't she dead yet" after he's freed from ice block. It's like they're trying to make us hate him.

[VladlTutushkin]

Well he is a sleasy prick who sucked up to a despot and now rides the high of power ruling over better people then himself and trying to overcompensate for that by insulting and demeaning the heroes.

[MatthiasVonTzeskagrad]

To be fair, I'd be all in for Nathanos to treat the player like dirt IF he actually won something. Besides surviving two buffed army-killer monstrosities (aka Malfurion and Tyrande) all we see him do is somehow arrive in time to get his ass handed by any random Alliance character possible.

I bet by 8.2 we'll have him both being stunned and nearly killed by Flynn Fairwind and then would go and kill a bunch of murlocs just to get trapped in a bubble and mock us after we free him. It's a pity... like so many BfA characters had great potential, only to be sucked by comic book superheroes levels of inconsistency, and desperation uselessness.

Edit: Now I think of it, it all makes sense now. In their efforts to make Sylvanas to look more evil, Blizz wrote her champion to be your average Hanzo main.

[steelballfc]

Saurfang is useless in the horde or alliance

[VladlTutushkin]

Useless and egotistic. Yep, thats him.

[Dagoth Ur]

You don't exactly need him, but him raising ruccus in the Horde with his would be rebellion defitely makes things easier for Alliance.