Going Tanking in 3.1

[Battousai]

Figured I'd switch things up...I've only dpsed on all my toons until now, and I've got the itch to tank. I joined a guild that only does 10 mans and everyone is RL friends...which is good and bad...as we have some "anchors". The weakness as far as I can tell with the guild is their healers are mediocre.

So, I was tinkering with the talent calc, trying to figure out the best build for my situation, and I was thinking Blood would probably be the best as healers are undoutably the guilds weakness.

I can't seem to find anything definitive on any other sites other than offical forums (and I can't post there at work ;D). So, I will ask you guys for critique on the build before I jump into it this week.

Assume I have the best tanking gear 10 man Naxx, Sarth 2D, and Malygos can provide. I know I'm taking all the fun out of flaming, but if you are going to post a change to my spec, specify why (general terms is fine). I can take the theorycrafting...so if you want to be exact...knock yourself out.

http://ptr.wowhead.com/?talent=jcEMV0hIsb0fssxhxZ0gh


EDIT Major Glyphs are Disease, Death Strike, and Vamp. Blood.
minors....far as I can tell theres really only a couple useful ones.

[Gomexus]

As a tank I'd drop Bloody Vengeance and Pick up DRM instead.

The build you linked has no form of Death Rune conversion which will be very needed for tanking (spaming HS/BB ftw).

I'd also drop Might of Mograine and put points into Rune Tap/Improved. You mentioned that you are afriad your healers may be the weakest link...having an on-demand self heal to go with a DS is nice...especially while using VB. Might of Mograine is very good don't get me wrong...but it was the weakest talent for tanking that I could find to make room for Rune Tap considering Death Strike will have a maximum of 20% crit chance.

Rune Tap is questionable...if you feel comfortable enough to not need it then keep MoM. DRM however is mandatory imo and the easiest to drop for it was BV.

[tranq717]

I would go with this build here...

http://ptr.wowhead.com/?talent=jcEMqIhIs000ssZhg00hZ0gh

[Gomexus]

I would go with this build here...

http://ptr.wowhead.com/?talent=jcEMqIhIs000ssZhg00hZ0gh

Not for Blood tanking. You're spending a lot of extra points in Frost for Annihilation which means you won't get Sudden Doom. Sudden Doom is free agro/dmg. DS+Glyph+Talent will do comparable dmg as a tank to Obliterate+Glyph+Talent and the healing component of DS will make up for any dmg difference. As a dps DS may not put out as much dmg and most if not all of the heal will be overheal anyway...as a tank however most if not all of the heal will cause threat and the dmg difference will be made up by the healing threat.

[Battousai]

Assuming my FU attack is Death Strike and I prioritize it over anything, why would I need death runes?

IT>PS>DS>HS>HS>DS>DS>Pest>HS

Repeat? Am I missing somthing?

Also, considering the DS glyph...which would be better, dumping RP with DC? or keeping pretty much max RP...getting an extra large percentage on DS.

I realize most of these questions will be answered within about a week of tanking, but I'm bored and I want to theorycraft. ;D

[tranq717]

Not for Blood tanking.  You're spending a lot of extra points in Frost for Annihilation which means you won't get Sudden Doom.  Sudden Doom is free agro/dmg.  DS+Glyph+Talent will do comparable dmg as a tank to Obliterate+Glyph+Talent and the healing component of DS will make up for any dmg difference.  As a dps DS may not put out as much dmg and most if not all of the heal will be overheal anyway...as a tank however most if not all of the heal will cause threat and the dmg difference will be made up by the healing threat.

It's true i'm sacrificing Sudden Doom for Annihilation; however, based on experience, I don't need the extra damage because i'm constantly pounding my runestrike key because it procs every other hit...I can only speak for myself that threat is not an issue.  I'd rather keep disease up than more damage with Sudden Doom... Just my 2 cents =)

I must be perfectly honest, I don't use DS at all...

My rotations is IT-> PS -> Obliterate -> Obliterate -> HS -> HS
HS-> HS -> HS -> HS -> HS -> HS (runestrike whenever up)

[TheDeathItself]

Well but there are also other factors involved into this, like one being Blade Barrier which is getting nerfed, nerfing your Rune Strike proc chance aswell.

Diseases up? I am assuming you mean using Obliterate? I kinda doubt that will be our FU attack since what they did to Death Strike. I dare say that Death Strike will be used as bloods FU abilities regardless of role. BTW does anyone know if Death Strikes heal does threat? If it does it would be quite nice, especially cause it does AoE threat then.

Assuming my FU attack is Death Strike and I prioritize it over anything, why would I need death runes?

IT>PS>DS>HS>HS>DS>DS>Pest>HS

Repeat? Am I missing somthing?

Also, considering the DS glyph...which would be better, dumping RP with DC? or keeping pretty much max RP...getting an extra large percentage on DS.

I realize most of these questions will be answered within about a week of tanking, but I'm bored and I want to theorycraft. ;D

Well I kinda doubt youd rather use Death Strike compared to Heart Strike seeing as how currently we use only Obliterate to convert our FU runes into death runes just for Heart Strikes.

[Battousai]

Well but there are also other factors involved into this, like one being Blade Barrier which is getting nerfed, nerfing your Rune Strike proc chance aswell.

Diseases up? I am assuming you mean using Obliterate? I kinda doubt that will be our FU attack since what they did to Death Strike. I dare say that Death Strike will be used as bloods FU abilities regardless of role. BTW does anyone know if Death Strikes heal does threat? If it does it would be quite nice, especially cause it does AoE threat then.

Well I kinda doubt youd rather use Death Strike compared to Heart Strike seeing as how currently we use only Obliterate to convert our FU runes into death runes just for Heart Strikes.

Everything I've read says that the DS heal is threat, so it ends up being a lot of threat. I'm just operating under the assumption that the improvements to DS will outshine HS spam.(becuase I haven't done it yet...but I'll be parsing it myself when I actually try the rotation)...I'm just antsy for results.

[Battousai]

Not for Blood tanking. You're spending a lot of extra points in Frost for Annihilation which means you won't get Sudden Doom. Sudden Doom is free agro/dmg. DS+Glyph+Talent will do comparable dmg as a tank to Obliterate+Glyph+Talent and the healing component of DS will make up for any dmg difference. As a dps DS may not put out as much dmg and most if not all of the heal will be overheal anyway...as a tank however most if not all of the heal will cause threat and the dmg difference will be made up by the healing threat.

If HS spam ends up being more threat than using the new DS as a priority, then I would definitly take DRM...has anyone tested the threat output of the new DS compared to HS?

[TheDeathItself]

Sweet, I guess there really is no need for Death Rune Mastery then. Can't wait to check it out! Would log on the PTR but I haven't downloaded the latest few patches since I can't be arsed to do that.

[TheDeathItself]

If anyone is gonna test that can you please try to do it with the Death Strike Glyph and without it.

[Battousai]

If anyone is gonna test that can you please try to do it with the Death Strike Glyph and without it.

Yes I'm wondering which would be better in a raid setting...spending the GCD on DCs to dump RP or to keep max RP with the glyph and look for some really big DS hits and heals.

[TheDeathItself]

Hmm... you maybe could use Death Coil every now and then since Glyph of Death Strike got changed a bit, nerfed maybe, 15% less damage, but you do have to have 100 runic power for it to have its full effect, 65 for the same effect as on the PTR atm compared to 26 runic power for the new glyph to have it's full effect, but it could aswell be a buff, maybe the latter since 74 less runic power required meaning more Rune Strikes aswell as plaussible Death Coils but the loss of 15% damage might be alot (especially cause it means 15% less healing, 30% lesst hreat in the end or did I miscalculate, 50% of damage done per disease is converted into healing, right? I did read they changed something about the healing but I forgot).

[Battousai]

We are now caught up with my original post. ;D Is this a decent tanking spec, and does holding max RP for max death strike damage and heals out threat dumping with DC.

[TheDeathItself]

The spec itself is decent but can't say for sure what to take if you want a cookie cutter build. Hard to say since were still in debate on what's better on threat: Death Strike or 2xHeart Strike. Holding maximum runic power will not increase Death Strikes damage since there's a cap as you can see from my post above (maximum additional damage is 25% which means you need at least 26 runic power).

[Battousai]

The spec itself is decent but can't say for sure what to take if you want a cookie cutter build. Hard to say since were still in debate on what's better on threat: Death Strike or 2xHeart Strike. Holding maximum runic power will not increase Death Strikes damage since there's a cap as you can see from my post above (maximum additional damage is 25% which means you need at least 26 runic power).

Granted.

[Gomexus]

I thought I stated it before but after reading it over again its kind of vague.

DS heal ONLY causes threat for the Healing Done portion and not the Overheal portion.

As a tank it may never be an issue and you could quite possibly get the full heal every time you use it..but its just one of those things that is hit and miss compared to SS and Oblit...they will do the same amount of threat each time...and both will hit harder than DS...DS could cause more threat due to the healing aspect...or it could do less dmg and less threat (than Ob/SS respectively).

If DS is going to be your main FU strike that's good, and it should be such with Blood...but ignoring DRM is a mistake all around regardless of your FU strike. There will be times when you will be tanking multiple mobs, with Glyph of Disease you can Pestilence your main target...then spam BB 5 times, thats a ton of AE threat within a few GCD's.

DS will still be used at least once or twice every other rotation, but just to clear it up before it starts...DS will not win the fight for you...and even with it's threat bonus from possible healing received...it will still be tough to outdps/threat 2x HS instead of 1x DS.

Imo DS will be used to generate DR's...much like Obliterate is now for Blood...then those DR's will be used on HS spam or BB spam depending on situation.

To sum it up:

1) Regardless of spec and glyph's DS is not your threat king, Rune Strike is for every spec.
2) DS for DR's to use on HS/BB.
3) If you're trying to be a self healing tank because your healers fail...then your raid will fail...you have VB+Glyph...you've helped them out enough.

[Battousai]

Ok, the versatility of an AE situation and the overheal threat situation has convinced me. DRM it is instead of Bloody Vengence...especially with the buffed BB damage.

Now that I'm second guessing myself, my inability to read gave me the assumption that I was going to pull off these massive glyphed death strikes, and it would outwiegh the 10% crit on Rune Strike.

Opinion?
Which would be better since DS glyph caps at 25%...Glyph of Rune Strike or Glyph of Death Strike? I'm considering that Vamp. Blood is probably mandatory but the disease glyph and death strike are potentially replaced by Rune strike.

[Gomexus]

Ok, the versatility of an AE situation and the overheal threat situation has convinced me. DRM it is instead of Bloody Vengence...especially with the buffed BB damage.

Now that I'm second guessing myself, my inability to read gave me the assumption that I was going to pull off these massive glyphed death strikes, and it would outwiegh the 10% crit on Rune Strike.

Opinion?
Which would be better since DS glyph caps at 25%...Glyph of Rune Strike or Glyph of Death Strike? I'm considering that Vamp. Blood is probably mandatory as well as Disease Glyph.

Well don't count out Dark Death Glyph either. DC will be your main RP dump and SD will be adding alot of DC's into the mix as well.

Disease Glyph is handy and it's hard to not use it Its convenience makes it hard to pass up for any tank, regardless of how bad it may or may not mess up rotations.

I like the Glyph of RS...I really do...I just can't bring myself to use it. 10% crit chance is nice...but it's a dice roll. Even as Blood you will have a 15-16% crit chance at best...Bumping RS up to 25-26% is awesome...but it's a Glyph that is functionally worthless for 74-75% of all RS's you deal...whereas DS glyph is useful every time you use it (given you have RP stored...which is still more manageable than a dice roll).

I guess I generally lean toward the "sure thing" style Glyph's/Talents. I'd rather know that every DC I throw hits 15% harder than to hope my RS will crit this time...maybe...please...

[Gomexus]

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...4&version=9757

If I were in your shoes that is what I would run with.

I'd end up giving up Glyph of Disease...it's very convenient for sure...but considering Blood's nature and all talents in play I just feel like manually refreshing diseases may not be a big loss in dps/tps.

I also dropped Subversion to pick up Scent of Blood. Added RP generation is always welcome...and will be more so after BoSanc change is in. Subversion is an awesome talent...but a tank should not be built around crit imo. The three points invested into Subversion only affect 1 ability you will use: Heart Strike. Considering dropping MoM to max out Subversion may be a bad idea as well...the crit dmg bonus on MoM affects your main AE ability, your main FU strike, and your main single rune ability...imo the benefit of more crit dmg on multiple abilities that are frequently used outweighs higher crit chance on 1 ability; though I could very well be wrong.