My experience with 2 alts, aka Why people don't tank

[Drunkenvalley]

While tanking your group can either be one of the biggest frustrations you've ever had in your life,
...or be a complete breeze. Never found a grayzone, now that I think of it...

Dungeons are indeed horribly easy from DPS-perspective, and would be for tanking if I didn't have this urge to strangle the DPS that keep fucking things up... Goddamn you, mage, I told you we needed to sheep the mob. You even said "Okay." And then you completely failed to even try. Grrrrrr...

[Deleted]

Yeah, the first trash pulls in HoO are pretty bad. I've had 160k+ hp tanks drop dead in under 3seconds there. You need to be on top of CC,dispelling AND interrupting or at the very least, use shield wall.
Heh, 90% of the posts in here are elitist and pointless.

[davesurfer]

Way off topic but are you guys having issues with HoO LoSing? CC the left and right pull middle back around wall. He will die and big guy will be out of LoS. Then kill big dude, then the CCs one at a time. It really is easy. Not elitist at all

[Deleted]

Been reading all the posts and it seems like, I'm close to the only one who actually understands, what OP is saying?

True some of it doesn't make sense. That apart, I agree with you OP. It IS alot easier for a dps than it is for a tank or healer. While there's 3 dps, there's only 1 tank and 1 healer.

Although i didn't have issues with HoO normal myself, I can understand, why you struggled with it.

Anyways, this is what I get from OP's post:

Specifically for a tank that can't selfheal i.e warrior and druid, it can be alot harder to start tanking heroics, when you have just dinged. It can also be alot harder in normal dungeons, since 1 low dps isn't=wipe, while 1 poorly geared tank=wipe. I know that OP isn't poorly geared for a lvl 84, but that's not the point as I see it.
The point is still, that it's harder for tanks and healers to manage in well any lvl than it is for a dps.

I see that alot of you had zero problems tanking heroics as freshly dinged. Well I had....... I've been tanking for years on both a warrior, DK and bear. I know the basics of tanking i.e. cc when needed, don't turn your back to the mobs, interrupt when needed and tell your dps to do their job.
However I really struggled in heroics, simply cause I took too much dmg (compared to other tanking classes).

Go ahead, call my failbadnoobtank and bla bla bla.

Still doesn't change the fact, that the restrictions for tanks and healers are alot higher than for dps. Not only due to the gear itself, but also due to the fact, that dps seems to meassure the quality of tanks based on their HP pool. Meaning they will start the QQ'ing "tank you suck, why you have so little HP?" etc.

So what was it, OP was trying to say again? Ah yeah, why is it harder for tanks and healers and easier for dps, when this will only encourage more ppl to roll dps (cause there really is a LACK of dps out there).

Ps. OP it does sound a bit like, you are leaving something out of your story. Even though you added the cc'ing part going south, it's still a bit odd that you didn't realize this yourself and told the dps to get their shit together imo.

[bufferunderrun]

When not geared enought you need to stick on a priority list during all pull:
1: CC casters if possible
2: Interrupt, when you see a mob casting something try it
3: dispell/purge buff from mob or debuff from your group
4: kite mobs if they cast some aoe on the ground
5: focus target
6: profit??

prepare a macro to spam at the start of any Dungeon assigning at every simbol a cc; most common are: star sap, square trap, moon sheep/hex/banish, circle mc/shakle, skull focus target and X second target.
Order of kill skull>X>star>circle>moon>square and on top of everything dont do any noob aoe next to cc'ed mob.

[Deleted]

You aren't really supposed to tank the 85 dungeons as 84 since the jump in HP is just massive. Ding 85 and try it again, you'll probably be fine.

[roflpot]

I like how people are trying to argue with the OP as if he's wrong here.

Simple fact is, you queue 30 mins as dps for a tank because nobody wants to do it. DPS is literally 10x easier with none of the pressure. I used to tank WOTLK heroics all the time. I haven't tanked one cata heroic (healed plenty, though) and I'm not sure that I really want to.

[Fela]

My suggestion would be short enrage timers on 5man bosses and more 1shot mechanics. Challenge players and they will improve.

Actually the opposite would probably help more. Remove enrage timers, so you can let bad DPS die without endangering the whole group.
And maybe also disallow need rolls for dead people, maximum greed.

[Kharismal Abyss]

I don't tank because there aren't competent healers.
I don't heal because there aren't competent tanks.

I don't PvE because there aren't competent players.

I PvP.

[JSStryker]

2) Other people in the group being d-bags.




This is exactly why I no longer tank in pugs

[Culexus]

Actually the opposite would probably help more. Remove enrage timers, so you can let bad DPS die without endangering the whole group.
And maybe also disallow need rolls for dead people, maximum greed.

Your solution translates into: "make it easier" ... not the way to got because that way the people get away with their slacking and will therefore never be forced to improve.
I hope the 2nd part regarding need rolls was a joke. That would cause a lot of griefing problems. I (as a healer) could simply let that dps die that could roll on an item i need for offspec even if hes doing fine.

[Mengucekli]

Your comparison with 85 heroics are very wrong in fact, as many people above stated, as you level up to 85, you lose some stats to compansate the factor of better gear at the current tier.

To clarify it for many other people that do not know this simple fact:

When you are level 83, i am totally throwing numbers out of nothing, lets say you have %45 crit chance.
When you reach level 85, if you get no new gear, and no talents that affect crit, you will have %20 crit chance. (NUMBERS ARE INCORRECT, For example purposes ONLY)

Why your crit chance (and many other stats in fact) drop like that? I cannot link you the blue comment from a comment 2 years or more back but blizzard explained it as "making room for the better gear you get at max level".

So your comparison with level 85 heroics are not very accurate.

Still, that does not mean your point is totally wrong. In fact, you are very right.

Dps role needs much less skill and time to play (WHILE LEVELING OF COURSE, LIKE GIVEN IN THE OP's EXAMPLE). In many cases, all you need to do is press 1 or 2 skills whole time from like level 30 to 85. You get the simplest aoe skill and you press nothing but that in dungeons from then on.

As a warrior tank, playing that role since 2006, i can clearly state that tanking is way harder than, lets say, playing a mage.

Still, i have some small advices if you would take my friendly advices into consideration:

You should not gear towards mitigation and avoidance WHILE LEVELING. Stamina is much better of a stat at those stages and can save your life more than simply armor, parry or dodge can.
Those stickies and other stuff is probably meant for people with maximum level with their character which means different measures for different enemies.

At 83-84, in normal dungeons, your best efforts should be put on having gear item level equal to the zone-dungeon you are in. That helps a lot.

At 85, you should really gather all available gear from normal dungeons before moving further in Heroics. Craft epics if possible. These also help a lot.

Last but not least: Use CC well. Allways check healer's gear status and calculate the amount of damage you can take, thus the number of mobs you need Crowd Controlled. too much control makes fights longer- sometimes that drives healer out of mana. Less crowd control means too much damage on you, which also drives healer out of mana or out damages his heals- both means your certain death.

In time, i hope you will master the balance between those and get used to the idea of "tanking". It is not that hard after all, only there is a 'pain threshold' that you must endure first

Good luck friend!

Meng

[Veriu]

You're the one not listening. I've gone over this point, you obviously have not read the thread. Dps are by and large terrible, as they were in this group, -because- of the game's mechanics not challenging them. Humans are lazy and will do the least they have to to get by. Since bad dps can be carried, they have little incentive to improve unless they are the type of person who challenges themselves.


This is what I'd like to see changed. You could've avoided writing that book by simply reading first.

.....how is it that you can't see that you aren't making any sense Baelon?????

bad dps can be carried

...they can't be anymore. as shown by your example, you had bad dps, and you couldn't carry them. Lets say you are mister awesome BiS tanking guy....still is going to be a pain to maintain threat on 4 caster mobs if every dps is attacking a different one...and assuming even half way decent single target dps (say mid teens) keeping agro is going to be almost impossible.

Baelon, you said that the game should be designed so that dpsing is as hard as tanking. I agree...and while it isn't there yet, it is much closer to that goal than it was in wrath. Bad dps can't be carried in cata. It doesn't work. Attacking the wrong mob? dps is probably going to die. Breaking CC? depending on the mob, might wipe whole group.....Hell, if I'm tanking or healing and dps breaks their own cc more than twice, I let them die.

In one of your posts, you said something about challenging people makes them better? some example about 5 pound weights, and x+3=5 equations or something. If the tank and/or healer can and do recover from every mistake a dps makes, then there is no challenge to the dps.

Last but not least: Use CC well. Allways check healer's gear status and calculate the amount of damage you can take, thus the number of mobs you need Crowd Controlled. too much control makes fights longer- sometimes that drives healer out of mana. Less crowd control means too much damage on you, which also drives healer out of mana or out damages his heals- both means your certain death.

....what? just saw this, and I'm at a total loss.....I get if you don't use enough cc, the healer will either oom or won't be able to keep up with the damage....but over using cc = healer oom???? how??? If you cc everything in a group (every mob cc'd) then there is no damage, and healer will never run out of mana unless they are a moron and just casting heals for no reason. Ok, that's a stupid example. Lets say you cc all but one mob, you tank, healer heals, dps kills. That one mob somehow did so much damage healer is low on mana already, and you still have 3 or 4 mobs cc'd, the answer is simple, don't break cc till healer has mana again, if needed keep cc'ing mobs...how is that hard?

every healer has combat mana regen...so the length of the fight is not what makes the healer go oom, it's the amount of damage that the mobs are dealing....

[Zendik]

Since reading the 4.0.6 patch notes over a month ago I've lost a lot of interest in my druid main and I've been playing my mage and warrior alts. Since I hate queues, I PvE as a tank on the warrior.

Mage - Currently 83. I don't care much about gear at all. If it has int I wear it. I don't reforge. Until late in 83, I wore a WoLK-era cloak. I don't enchant at all. I'm specced fire and have not tried arcane at all, or frost in PvE (frost is my pvp spec). I don't worry too much about my spec. I sustain 6-10k overall in dungeons at level 83, doing 9-12k on bosses. My high was 18.4k on Altairus in Vortex Pinnacle. This is far more than is necessary. Dungeon runs go fast & easy. At 83 I'm already doing far more than the 8-10k boss dps people consider the 'minimum' for level 85 heroics.

Warrior - Currently 84. I have respecced my prot spec several times, and am going to do so again later on today. I have deliberated for some time over the best spec. I check the AH daily for gear upgrades. The minute I get one, I reforge it, enchant it, and if applicable gem it.. Everything is gemmed. Belt has a buckle. Everything is enchanted. All properly done, as per the warrior stickies, with a focus on mitigation and avoidance. Smithing is maxed and bracers / gloves have the additional gem slots, which are gemmed. When I dinged 84 I queued for the 3 highest level normal modes and got Halls of Origination. I made the first pull and I got -housed-. The healer and 1 dps survived the first pull. The healer rightfully told me that he was sorry but I just wasn't geared enough. We got another healer. The next pull went much the same, and the healer left wordlessly, followed by 2 of the dps.

Conclusion: At 83, with zero effort expended, my dps class alt is performing at a level more than adequate for 85 heroics. At a similar level, my tank, with a significant amount of effort and gold expended, is not capable of performing at a level adequate for the level 85 normal modes he is capable of queueing for at 84. Blizzard's design places an order of magnitude more burden on the tank than the dps, giving the dps a free ride. It is therefore little wonder that most people choose not to play tanks

I tank with 2 chars, one of them is my main and I am guild leader/raid leader on a 25 man raiding guild. I take a lot of pleasure tanking, more than DPS/healing role.

Halls of originations first packs are a pain, and must be cc'ed properly to succeed with minimum pain. Analyzing the pack:

- the big guy which i can't remember the name will do a channelled fire rain, it's harmless mostly since u can avoid the fire. he also casts fireballs or wtv it is, that will become faster and faster, until it gets interrupted. so after sometime, it's just impossible to heal through if it doesn't get interrupted. he also gets a fire shield that deals a lot of damage on heroic specially, if melees hit. so usually, have a ranged dps it. u can also tank it, but the melee on heroic at least must pay attention to their HP if they go hit the mob with you. the mob can be stunned, silence and interrupted, not cc'ed tough i believe, with sap and sheep etc.

- shadowlancer the most dangerous is a channeled aoe shadow damage, can and must be interrupted. apart from that, tank and spank

- the rune one is a pseudo healer... just puts a circle on the ground that heals friendly targets. drag mobs away from it. also interrupt him when possible.

- swiftstalker is a hunter. ranged attacks, has a very long cast one that can be interrupted. altough this one i don't really find much of a challenge, just get it's agro to be sure someone else doesn't, aka a healer.

in heroic mode, i usually cc 2 shadowlancers if they are 2 of them, otherwise i cc a shadowlancer and swiftstalker, and have ranged dps + interrupt the big mob, while i taunt it once in a while to get the damage directed to myself. ranged interrupt big mob. gg.

those packs can't be aoe'd in normal or heroic mob, no chances there, unless you are with a lvl 85 tank and healer with some epics in between, which will most likely not be happening.

[baelon]

To those who understand my point, thank you for voicing reason in your replies.

For those who trolled and patted themselves on the back for being so elite, I can only laugh. I wasn't complaining. I was illustrating my point with an experience. I've tanked since BC and healed / dps'd stince vanilla. I'm well aware of what I'm doing. The warr is 85 now and tanking heroics as well as my 85 bear druid does. I'm not upset, but I'm a little amazed at how eager people are to put others down. I guess it's human nature. I just don't expect to see as much of it here as on the official forums.

For those telling me that when I ding 84-85 I'll see a marked drop in dps...

[jmoney12rr]

gg on doing 20k dps on a boss fight with a ridiculous haste buff..the fight lasts 45 seconds with cooldowns

[wylatron]

Yes. With a similar level of skill, gear, effort and gold, a tank and a DPS are equally effective at completing their respective roles.

You're looking too hard at comparing survivability (not easily quantifiable) with damage done (easily quantifiable). They don't correlate together, just like HP doesn't correlate 1:1 to mana.

However, I continue to maintain that you each should be equally competent at your given role, given the above variables.

Don't know if you've noticed, but the AH tends to rape tanks of gold a LOT more then dps or heals....that alone makes your point invalid.
Secondly, how many quest rewards OF USE are actually made for tanks?
I am aware there are some, however, there is significantly more dps and heals gears as quest rewards.

Yet another problem here is as mentioned cc, and lets face it, when you are relying on pugs for inturrupts, and cc, you can bet your ass you are gonna get an empty headed meter racer who fails there,
not to mention 'mr.hai guis! I died cuz I stoods in teh fires, is it okay if you do all the work for me every pull and bossfight while I lay here dead and need on lootz I didn't earns?'

There ARE inbalances while leveling, to say otherwise is an outright LIE.
If you fail to see this, just go into a bg early levels, and continue all the way up to 85.
Why bg's? you get to see more ppl on all classes, per hour.
Yes, some are twinked, and some ppl fail at gearing, but after you get your head around that, and start to look around and see the score boards over several hundred bg's, the picture becomes clear.
Things are not balanced at all levels.
Stop filling in your gaps in knowledge with bullshit man, it's toxic to the well being of the community and borders on troll posting.

OP as much as I HATE this idea, maybe it's time to respec to dps until 85?
Or better yet, faceroll some bg's until you ding, god knows your class does not completely suffer in bg's.
fyi: que's for bg's are uber short, no matter if you are a tank, dps, or heals.

Jmoney: gratz on a useless reply, other then cutting him down (tho that is a useless meter to gauge by), what did you accomplish? OH right! gratz on your post count increase....

[baelon]

gg on doing 20k dps on a boss fight with a ridiculous haste buff..the fight lasts 45 seconds with cooldowns

The point being it's higher than the 18.5k I managed at 83, which I was assured would only decrease as I leveled. Try to follow along. Reading helps. Take lessons if necessary.

[Epiclurker]

I'm sorry I seem to have forgotten the actual purpose of this thread. Is it to talk about dps or to find out why the OP died so fast in HoO?

[baelon]

I'm sorry I seem to have forgotten the actual purpose of this thread. Is it to talk about dps or to find out why the OP died so fast in HoO?

Neither, it's to talk about the discrepancy between what game mechanics ask of dps vs. tanks.