Gaza rocket fire resumes

[Zhangfei]

Who took it from the Mamluk,Who took it from the Abbasid, who took it from the Umayyad, who took it from the Rashidun, who took it from the Byzantine, who took it from the Romans, who took it from the Jews, who took it from the Greeks, who took it from the Persians, who took it from the Babylonians who took it from the Jews, who took it from the Canaanites.

And? That justifies what? None of those people were living there so how is it remotely relevant?

Prior to 1947 it was British. End of story.

It was ruled by the British (that's what a goddamn mandate means) but owned by the Palestinians.

The UN proposed and approved a partition of British land into 2 states.

But the people living there did not, which according to the UN's own laws makes it illegal, so that ends this pathetic sideshow of an excuse for ethnic cleansing.

[Hif]

Those two paragraphs aren't facts at all. They are misrepresenting the truth.

Lets deal with the UN part first since well I work for the UN. The UN can not approve independence. The C-34 can't even do that. The Trusteeship Council never did that either. So that statement is false. Legally under international law the UN can not approve independence. If it could, Kosovo, Western Sahara, East Timor would all be independent states with a simple vote in the UNGA. It never happened! So nope not facts. Blatant propaganda and a misrepresentation of the truth.

As for the First paragraph. I would like to correct that as well.

Mamluk (Muslims who are now defined as Palestinians) who took it from the Abbasid (Again Muslims who are now defined as Palestinains) who took it from the Umayyad (Again Muslims who are defined as Palestinians).

A simple fallacy of those who know little of Muslim history is that the Muslim Ummah were and are by all means a confederation just like Switzerland. While the Dynasties and families in power changed, the local rulers of the territories, the sheikhs, ummads, Emirs and Sultans are remained in power unless they were over thrown by the people in their own areas.

So even though you had dynasties changed, the local power structures and traditional leadership roles did not.

[Haarvald]

It was ruled by the British (that's what a goddamn mandate means) but owned by the Palestinians.

You mean it was ruled and owned by the British, dontcha?

And while we are at it... let me ask you about Bosnia, and the Muslim ethnic cleansing of the Catholics, driving about 400-500k of them?

[Mavett]

You mean it was ruled and owned by the British, dontcha?

And while we are at it... let me ask you about Bosnia, and the Muslim ethnic cleansing of the Catholics, driving about 400-500k of them?

Don't bother with him, he will fanatically spin it to fit his agenda.

[Deleted]

Yes, I agree with you, crocodile tears for those you pretend to support when you don't actually support them is disingenuous.

You have an incredibly warped world view. These aren't some football teams that you choose to support or be against. You can condemn the actions of Israelis without thinking the state and nation should be wiped off the face of the earth, and you can think that Palestinian have a right to their own state and to be treated with dignity while condemning the use of terror. It seems like too many people have this need to pick sides and see everything as good vs. evil, which is completely intellectually dishonest.

[Collegeguy]

It's amazing how many people are anti-israel. As if any discussion is relevant on the legitimacy half a century ago.

[soulcrusher]

It's amazing how many people are anti-israel. As if any discussion is relevant on the legitimacy half a century ago.

the more children they kill, people they assassinate, countries they undermine then the more this will increase. Im of the opinion that times running out for Israel and if they dont start building bridges with their neighbours soon it will be too late. America cant protect them forever.

[Subetei]

You failed miserably, 'Israel will rise and will remain erect until Islam eliminates it as it had eliminated its predecessors. '

within the first paragraph of the charter.

what part of from 1988 do you not understand? we can take quotes from Israeli officials from 1967 if you want to play that game. that's from Moyshe Dayan... he's basically saying that a prolonged occupation is a good option. This is Israel's position now?

“let’s say ‘we don’t have a solution, and you will continue living like dogs, and whoever wants will go, and we’ll see how this procedure will work out.’ For now, it works out. Let’s say the truth. We want peace. If there is no peace, we will maintain military rule and we will have four to five military compounds on the mountains, and they will sit ten years under the Israeli military regime. Whoever wants to go, will want. It’s possible that in five years, there will be 200,000 fewer people, and that’s an enormous thing.”

RAFI secretary Shimon Peres retorts, “we could act like Rhodesia, but we need to avoid that. Putting aside our standing in the world, there is a problem for ourselves. We need to consider how to maintain Israel’s moral status, and let’s not ignore that.” To that, Dayan replies, “Ben-Gurion said that whoever approaches the Zionistic problem in the moral aspect is not a Zionist.”

[Deleted]

we can take quotes from Israeli officials from 1967

Or you could take the Israeli interior minister Eli Yishai's comments from a few weeks ago:

"The goal of the operation is to send Gaza back to the Middle Ages, only then will Israel be calm for the next 40 years."

"Destroy and damage infrastructure, public buildings and government buildings. We must make sure that Hamas will be spending many years rebuilding Gaza, and not attacking Israel"

That is textbook collective punishment. Lock the Palestinians in refugee camps, bomb them "to the Middle Ages" every five years or so that they have no chance to develop as a nation.

[Valort]

Those two paragraphs aren't facts at all. They are misrepresenting the truth.

Lets deal with the UN part first since well I work for the UN. The UN can not approve independence. The C-34 can't even do that. The Trusteeship Council never did that either. So that statement is false. Legally under international law the UN can not approve independence. If it could, Kosovo, Western Sahara, East Timor would all be independent states with a simple vote in the UNGA. It never happened! So nope not facts. Blatant propaganda and a misrepresentation of the truth.

As for the First paragraph. I would like to correct that as well.

Mamluk (Muslims who are now defined as Palestinians) who took it from the Abbasid (Again Muslims who are now defined as Palestinains) who took it from the Umayyad (Again Muslims who are defined as Palestinians).

A simple fallacy of those who know little of Muslim history is that the Muslim Ummah were and are by all means a confederation just like Switzerland. While the Dynasties and families in power changed, the local rulers of the territories, the sheikhs, ummads, Emirs and Sultans are remained in power unless they were over thrown by the people in their own areas.

So even though you had dynasties changed, the local power structures and traditional leadership roles did not.

I am a self-proclaimed Astrophysicist, therefore I can easily state I have found proof, by examining images of Eris, that Israel belongs to the Jews.

My point > Your point.

---------- Post added 2012-11-23 at 03:49 PM ----------

Or you could take the Israeli interior minister Eli Yishai's comments from a few weeks ago:

"The goal of the operation is to send Gaza back to the Middle Ages, only then will Israel be calm for the next 40 years."

"Destroy and damage infrastructure, public buildings and government buildings. We must make sure that Hamas will be spending many years rebuilding Gaza, and not attacking Israel"

That is textbook collective punishment. Lock the Palestinians in refugee camps, bomb them "to the Middle Ages" every five years or so that they have no chance to develop as a nation.

1 out of 120. I think there were more people in the Knesset going against any attack than for it. Not to mention the several Arabic ones.
Now, the moment you find a Jewish representative on the Hamas' congress, let me know about his opinions.
If we're only going to quote the extremist minority on the Knesset, we may as well throw all common sense out the window.

But that is the beauty of democracy. We have left wings and right wings, we have extremists and peacemongers, we have pro-Palestinians and even pro-terrorist people in our ruling bodies.

[Deleted]

1 out of 120.

Israel has 120 interior ministers? WoW. You don't get to write it off as ramblings of a senile extremist when they guy is a deputy prime minister and the minister of internal affairs.

I think there were more people in the Knesset going against any attack than for it.

Yet it happened anyway.

[Valort]

Israel has 120 interior ministers? WoW. You don't get to write it off as ramblings of a senile extremist when they guy is a deputy prime minister and the minister of internal affairs.



Yet it happened anyway.

1 out of 120 representatives.
And he is the minister of interior because of his ability to deal with such issues, not because of his knowledge of military actions.

And it happened anyway, because, obviously, when you're under fire, you fire back. The will of the people was stronger.

[Deleted]

1 out of 120 representatives.
And he is the minister of interior because of his ability to deal with such issues, not because of his knowledge of military actions.

He is a deputy prime minister and a minister of internal affairs, it's a safe bet he has significantly more influence than a random representative.

And it happened anyway, because, obviously, when you're under fire, you fire back.

And this is exactly what hamas says as well, "when you're under fire, you fire back". It's not going to lead anywhere, but honestly it doesn't seem like there's any interest on the Israeli side to do anything other than keep the palestinians locked up in refugee camps and occasionally bomb them "to the Middle Ages" to make sure they don't develop as a nation.

[Valort]

And this is exactly what hamas says as well, "when you're under fire, you fire back". It's not going to lead anywhere, but honestly it doesn't seem like there's any interest on the Israeli side to do anything other than keep the palestinians locked up in refugee camps and occasionally bomb them "to the Middle Ages" to make sure they don't develop as a nation.

That would be much easier to accomplish if Israel weren't supplying them with electricity, medical services, food and water, right?
It would take exactly 5 minutes for Israel to turn down all those services, if they really wanted to take them back to the middle ages.

If Israel wants something, Israel gets it. Do you really think if they wanted to simply remove the Palestinians, they wouldn't? Just because you CAN do something, it doesn't mean you WILL do something. Any person can murder, rape and steal, but only a minority does.

As of the "more influence" point. No, simply... No. He was part of the deal Netanyahu had to make to get a majority on his side so he could be prime minister. No one takes him seriously in anything but internal affairs, and even then, he is easily ignored as a hack.

[Hiricine]

Every other tyrannical nation on the planet either committed genocide or forced a mass exodus of the unwanted population. Isreal, if it is one, would historically be the first not to do so. Either they aren't the villain or they should start being one, it would benefit them greatly.

[Zogarth]

That would be much easier to accomplish if Israel weren't supplying them with electricity, medical services, food and water, right?
It would take exactly 5 minutes for Israel to turn down all those services, if they really wanted to take them back to the middle ages.

If Israel wants something, Israel gets it. Do you really think if they wanted to simply remove the Palestinians, they wouldn't? Just because you CAN do something, it doesn't mean you WILL do something. Any person can murder, rape and steal, but only a minority does.

As of the "more influence" point. No, simply... No. He was part of the deal Netanyahu had to make to get a majority on his side so he could be prime minister. No one takes him seriously in anything but internal affairs, and even then, he is easily ignored as a hack.

Tbh i never liked Israel... we only gave them the country because we (FN and stuff) feel sorry for them after WW2. If any other country acted like Israel sometimes does, we would have put them down, or at least made trade sanctions or stuff like that... but oh no those poor jews have suffered enough... it is 67 years ago, get over it.

[Hif]

I am a self-proclaimed Astrophysicist, therefore I can easily state I have found proof, by examining images of Eris, that Israel belongs to the Jews.

My point > Your point.

The difference is my entire post is based on fact. Please show me anywhere in the UN Charter, the laws that govern the GA or UNSC that they can declare independence. If it was possible Palestine would have been declared independent in the UNGA 40 years ago. It hasn't because the UN has no legal authority to do so.

More blatant propaganda from Israeli supporters and when faced with facts they put their heads in the sand.

[Deleted]

That would be much easier to accomplish if Israel weren't supplying them with electricity, medical services, food and water, right?
It would take exactly 5 minutes for Israel to turn down all those services, if they really wanted to take them back to the middle ages.

Oh yes, how charitable of them. That makes it all ok then!

If Israel wants something, Israel gets it. Do you really think if they wanted to simply remove the Palestinians, they wouldn't? Just because you CAN do something, it doesn't mean you WILL do something. Any person can murder, rape and steal, but only a minority does.

They can't simply remove Palestinians because that would mean an armed international intervention. UN genocide convention would require every nation to take action in such case without any further debate.

[Wildtree]

A visual presentation:

Okay. That's a rather retarded comparison..
And why?
Just a plain evaluation of the weaponry used.
Hamas throws (almost literally spoken) rockets at Israel of which most are home made from salvaged scrap. Those kind of rockets can be made in ones backyard shop.
It somewhat reminds me of the Cata quest [Everything but the Kitchen Sink] where you shoot with scrap pieces, even roasted chicken at the attacking helicopters.
Some 1500 rockets were fired into Israel over those days now, and the damage they've caused is minimal compared to their numbers. Their effectiveness is that of a hand grenade with wings. Part of the reason why Israels Iron dome defense was actually capable to intercept most of them. They are slow, floating in the air like a lame duck, not like a strong powerful missile.
Whereas Israel has serious missiles which cause a lot more devastating destruction.

Make no mistake here.... Don't associate those Hamas rockets with something like Patriot Missiles and the like.

I am not saying that I agree with them being shot into Israel at all. Neither do I say it's fine Israel fires theirs into Gaza.
I just want to point out that people also need to look at what weapons are in use there.

---------- Post added 2012-11-23 at 09:30 AM ----------

Every other tyrannical nation on the planet either committed genocide or forced a mass exodus of the unwanted population. Isreal, if it is one, would historically be the first not to do so. Either they aren't the villain or they should start being one, it would benefit them greatly.

Not every other, Every!
And every tyrannical nation in history has been brought down, either by allies from outside, who finally had enough. or from within, because one can only tyrannize for so long, until the pure survival instincts break through in an entire society and they stand up against the tyrants.
In many cases it was a combination of the two.
But every single tyranny in the past, came to an end.
So no.. it would not be smart for Israel to become a tyrant or villain. It would be the clear path to their elimination.

---------- Post added 2012-11-23 at 09:41 AM ----------

They can't simply remove Palestinians because that would mean an armed international intervention. UN genocide convention would require every nation to take action in such case without any further debate.

I think so too. And I believe that an obvious removal/ethnic cleansing would bring Russia out on the table and they'd interfere with Military Power. And I am pretty sure that the USA would not risk a war with Russia in Middle East over Israel. Especially not if the obvious reason would be to save the lives of people who are facing another holocaust. That wouldn't happen.
So, Israel cannot bank all their actions on the insurance policy of having the USA as the mighty ally that has their back. Let alone that I do not believe that such actions would be backed by the USA. That would betray everything the USA tries to stand for.
The middle east crisis contributes to our World economy crisis at large. We all are interested to stabilize the region. For all of us the most benefit would come from total peace down there. It has to come to an end.


Interesting read, how not everything is just black and white...
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/comme...rticle5583671/

[someotherguy]

Okay. That's a rather retarded comparison..
And why?
Just a plain evaluation of the weaponry used.
...
I am not saying that I agree with them being shot into Israel at all. Neither do I say it's fine Israel fires theirs into Gaza.
I just want to point out that people also need to look at what weapons are in use there.[COLOR="red"]

Hamas consistently targets civilians.
You can claim that their rockets are just unable to target military.
However there are plenty of bus bombings, nightclub bombings. So target isn't the Israel military, it's civilians.
Hamas get rockets from Iran, and Iran could give them better rockets, but than less civilians would die, and you couldn't make an argument that their weaponry is so mismatching.

On the other side, Israel targets Hamas locations. To stop them from firing at civilians, and in cases when it's leaders - to stop them from ordering firing at civilians.
You don't want Israel to use same rockets that Hamas uses, because more civilians will die, and Hamas won't be hurt (just as Israel military is not hurt), and so they will keep firing, and Israel will keep firing, and it will take far longer to end.