Just got kicked from my casual guild for refusing to play affliction-hug this kitten

[Bruddoris]

for me this becomes a really simple issue,

1. Every one who responded to this with "Screw your guild" " your guild sucks" " to hell with those guys" or anything similar to that, is a part of the reason that the WoW player base has a shit reputation for being anti-social trolls, and asses.

Is it completely fine to play however you want? Absolutely, is it fine to play however you want and expect others to accept it? Hell no, You made a choice, now You live with the results. if the group you are in doesn't approve of that choice then it's your job to find a compromise or respectfully part ways like adults, not throw a temper tantrum and pick up your metaphorical basket ball and go home.

2 As a raider you are a part of your team, and if it's a casual raid then it's likely that when the leader is looking at how well someone is doing he is more concerned with where that player falls on a scale of personal potential. So if you have a hunter that is just not very good, but they are trying as hard as they can, and attempting to improve that is fine, where if you have a lock like you who is doing more damage than the hunter, but is admittedly under-preforming based on personal potential, that is a slap in the face to the whole raid, because there are people who are doing all they can to progress and you are sitting back and coasting. In this situation I think it's more a matter of you refusing to put in the effort rather than you dps or spec, had you switched and shown that your gain isn't significant or if it was, and you spoke with the raid lead and agreed to play the more optimal spec when asked but could fall back to your proffered spec when the added DPS was not important, I doubt this would have been an issue.

3. People need to take the whole it's my 15 dollars stuff and shove it directly you know where, because that is a pathetic argument, because it may be your 15 dollars but the second you are in a group you are simply 1 person in the group, exactly no more or less important than any other person in it. they all payed their 15 dollars, so your desires are not one spec more important than theirs. If you have a way you like to play great, find people that feel the same way, or a place where you playing that was doesn't bother others. In short be decent human beings for christ's sake.

[Deleted]

The sadder part is that I think most people here, including myself, believe the OP is correct from the very beginning in one sense: playing destruction in raids is fine.

No it is not. You're wasting other peoples time playing sub-optimal specs, in a casual guild or otherwise. Even if you top the dps meters there is no excuse for it, as you should maximize every passive mean of increasing your dps. If the guilds aim is to progress, you should as a good team player do everything towards that goal within reasonable limits.

You can think of it like this, if everyone played whatever pvp spec for raids you wouldn't get anywhere. So why should one person be given special treatment over the others?

[Cairhiin]

1)Im not a bad player.I perform the mechanics of a fight without making stupid mistakes(something players on my guild did plenty) and often offer advice on the fights we do.
2)Yes,especially on non-havocable fights,dps is shit.Still,it's always acceptable for enrage timers.

Dunno,but i think that being on a casual guild that doesnt have a spectacular progress does kinda mean that if you're doing enough dps to avoid a wipe(aka doing your part) is enough.

Raiding is a team sport and you apparently don't want to be part of a team. I fully agree with the decision of your RL/GM to bench you. Other raiders who do help out by changing specs or talents have more rights than you to be in that raid. Especially because you know you are not performing to the height of your abilities and refuse to do something about it.

[Harpocrates]

The mentality of a lot of the raiders is saddening, if you aren't going for world firsts or even server firsts then what spec you play doesn't matter. If you disagree with this then you pointlessly take this game way to seriously. OP, find a guild with mature people.

[Shauni]

I remember having read something along...
"You paid 12€ to play the game your way. Fine, but the 288€ of your fellow raider says 'Learn your class !'"

[Brauhm]

No it is not. You're wasting other peoples time playing sub-optimal specs, in a casual guild or otherwise. Even if you top the dps meters there is no excuse for it, as you should maximize every passive mean of increasing your dps. If the guilds aim is to progress, you should as a good team player do everything towards that goal within reasonable limits.

You can think of it like this, if everyone played whatever pvp spec for raids you wouldn't get anywhere. So why should one person be given special treatment over the others?

No, I don't agree with this.

There are two parts to raiding, the fun and the progression, depending on your "team" you can do both, one, or neither. If your goal is progression, than everyone should be playing their most optimal spec, if your goal is fun, then play what you want, but if your goal is both, which is what most casual guilds go for, then its a grey area and its usually considered that "as long as your not holding back the raid, you're fine."

But with your logic, a boomkin, shadow priest, ele shaman, windwalker, etc, if any of them were in the raid, they should be replaced, otherwise the raid is being "sub-optimal" why should I have to suffer playing a better but potentially more boring spec when the rest of the raid is playing sub-optimal classes that could never keep up with me? Why do I have to carry the raid? Why is that burden on me.

But from what it sounds like, that's not the case, it sounds like OP wasn't topping charts, or even close to it, and that's why they replaced him. There is nothing wrong with playing the spec you want as long as you're not dead weight, (and consdiering Blood Legion's Heroic Dogs kill has a demo lock, not an affliction one, they'd agree.)

[dakalro]

Your guild sucks cause they were unable to see that you were the weak link, not your spec.
I've taken WoW break, playing 2-3h a night, 2-3 days a week. In that time I still did my best to play as good as possible. Being casual is not an excuse for being shit.

[Deleted]

Find another guild and screw those guys. I'd rather have a player who does the mechanics well in my group then someone who does 1 billion dps then dies 10 seconds later.

[Deleted]

Personally I find destruction incrediboring on all fights, except for Elegon. But even then, affliction is still more fun imo.
Destruction has just been simplified to a point of Arcane Mage status imo, where affliction is still complicated enough for me to enjoy. I feel that I can never do affliction perfectly, where as destruction I can never do wrong. Possibly because I played destruction since vanilla (more or less) and only changed to affliction here in MOP.

However, if you're good at destruction and bad as affliction, your numbers should still be really good as destruction (better than they would be at affliction if you weren't good at that)...

I don't really get the problem though, affliction is alot of fun imho.

[Volitar]

I don't doubt he was pulling piss poor DPS (player issues) but I also think its sort of stupid that a guild stuck on blade lord normal is asking him to play a spec he doesn't want to play. There are progression minded guilds and fun guilds, If your a progression minded guild stuck on the second boss of normal there is something wrong.

[Jessicka]

I don't doubt he was pulling piss poor DPS (player issues) but I also think its sort of stupid that a guild stuck on blade lord normal is asking him to play a spec he doesn't want to play and expect him to do better by doing so.

Just added a bit that basically sums up my view. If he's bad, he's bad and the theoretical difference between specs isn't going to fix that. This isn't the difference between Frost and Arcane Mages in Wrath we're talking about here; it's two specs in the theoretical top half of the charts.

[Deleted]

I remember having read something along...
"You paid 12€ to play the game your way. Fine, but the 288€ of your fellow raider says 'Learn your class !'"

pay money for something you don´t enjoy? that sounds about right!
the solution is finding another guild not playing a game the way others want you to

[Wildtree]

Main spec the best spec for your role.
Off spec the spec you enjoy playing most (or another role, if you're a hybrid class).


Different things matter to different people, and nobody has the right to decide what matters to people besides themselves. It's their leisure time and they can decide how they want to spend it. If the OP isn't prepared to conform to the standards the rest of the group expect them to then they can find another group.

And that's the clear attitude difference to WoW 2012 and WoW let's say 2008.
Given, there have always been players who tried to squeeze the absolute maximum out of their toons and specs. This is a very valid view point. And it is acceptable for those who want to play with this geeky/nerdy mindset. Or they aren't attached to their toons too much for whatever reason they have, and simply don't mind playing whatever spec is the current top.
But this is not the rule to the game. Forget that. This is not how the game is designed on a more laid back level. I don't like the term casual, because casual doesn't refer to the level seriousness a player has when they play, but more to the time they spend in the game altogether. Like others gave perfect examples for it here already.
We all know, at least if one is somewhat informed, that Blizzard does not like that "only the best is desired in raids" attitude.
The famous motto stands above else in Raiding for that matter: "Bring the player, not the class."
They tweak and change things around constantly, and more than often we don't agree with many of those changes, because we feel that there's too much homogenization going on.
Those changes also include that the gap between different specs for pure dmg dealers is nowadays usually not that wide anymore as it once was.
For rather laid back raiders, those who don't really thrive to be at the top of the boards, and don't mind if the last boss dies in time before the next tier, or the tier thereafter dies. Because for them raiding is just another activity in the game with not much more value in regards of spare time usage, than farming crops in Halfhill.
Now before someone tries to argue that. Think a moment. Do not make the mistake of looking at the situation from your own preference. Rather look at it from a general perspective.
Bring the Player, not the Class is the key. That also includes something else, that should not be pointed out at all.
Everyone should be able to play the game to the most fun they can have. Many many players (I think that it is safe to say the vast majority), play the spec they love the most. THIS spec is the main spec. Always was the main spec. Cannot be argued. Because it's the spec people using the most, the one they are most familiar with. The second spec is the one people choose for other purposes, be it PVP, off-heals, off-dps, or spec swap on raid encounters.

For the particular case, we don't know the numbers. We don't know what else is going on.

DPS: Only BAD Raid leaders look at DPS. Really... DPS means crap if one dies all the time, or causes the death of others. It means little if the person has little dmg contribution. it is not how much dps one carries (I claim that's only there as a slight indicator of being in the toons ability range, and to please ones ego). What really matters is how much of the Boss's health did the toon contribute to kill. Damage Done > DPS. There's no if's and but's.

What else is going on: Reading the OP carefully, he say he offers advice. That caught my eye. How does he offer advice? If he offers it, because he's asked for it, that's a good thing. If he offers it without anyone asking at all. Then it can be, that this is the reason for everything. If I lead a raid, or whatever event, and I don't ask the group for any input or idea, what we can tweak, then I can get very touchy with those who constantly throw their two cents in.
That is not only disturbing, but annoying and rude. I will eventually discard that person from the roster sooner or later, and their raiding quality plays zero role in my decision. It could be my best raider, but he is out.
One foul apple destroys the entire basket.

If only the best DPS counts.. We'd all run around as Warriors and / or Firemages.
We wouldn't be able to raid, since no one would play the lowly other classes.
We wouldn't have a variety of tank classes, a variety of melee, and no variety of healer classes.

Elitism towards theory numbers is luckily not the basis of the game.

[PutressFIRST]

This thread makes me cry.

[Housemdoctor]

Looking at your attitude wonder why that guild didnt kick you earlier. You are wrong, you know you are wrong and you dont try to improve yourself for raid. Raiding is about teamplay, everybody needs to suffer something for good of others, you refuse and you should be kicked. Id kick you even earlier so you wont get hand on too much gear that can be useful to ACTUAL RAIDERS.

[Deleted]

No it is not. You're wasting other peoples time playing sub-optimal specs, in a casual guild or otherwise. Even if you top the dps meters there is no excuse for it, as you should maximize every passive mean of increasing your dps. If the guilds aim is to progress, you should as a good team player do everything towards that goal within reasonable limits.

You can think of it like this, if everyone played whatever pvp spec for raids you wouldn't get anywhere. So why should one person be given special treatment over the others?

That's up for the guild master or raid leader to decide. But you have to understand that not everyone cares enough to play 100 % optimized, to take all that extra time to get as much as possible out of their spec. Most will gem and enchant their gear, learn the spec they like, and try their best during the encounters. But if you told them that this is still not enough, the spec they play and enjoy isn't the best spec and they need to learn something new, just so you can save maybe 5 seconds on the enrage timer when the biggest issue if you're wiping is learn to play issues and not optimizing issues, they are far more likely going to say "fuck it, I'm not doing this, it's not fun anymore".

This is the core difference between a casual guild and a hardcore guild in my opinion, a casual guild is more after the fun experience in general of raiding, and for as long as they progress further and don't hit a wall it doesn't matter if you have the most optimal spec or not.

[Heltoray]

Good damage output will always help you
you play a DPS class
you do shitty DPS

case closed

[Granyala]

No it is not. You're wasting other peoples time playing sub-optimal specs, in a casual guild or otherwise. Even if you top the dps meters there is no excuse for it, as you should maximize every passive mean of increasing your dps. If the guilds aim is to progress, you should as a good team player do everything towards that goal within reasonable limits.

Dude, the target content is NORMAL MODE. I Agree with you for heroic progression, but for normal progression it won't matter whether the OP plays destro or affliction. If the raid wipes in normal usually there are a lot of other fails involved. A THEORETICAL dps gain of 10K for one person won't make a difference.

[Odina]

We have a destro lock in our guild and I would consider us very casual. We raid 4 hours a week total and we just cleared MV this week for the first time. However the same lock I'm tlaking about gets ranks on WOL and as such we would never tell him to go afflic as that would probably be a loss of dps for some one that is doing so well as destro.

The issue is never about "take spec X because you will auto be a dps god" but rather " you are not only playing a sub optimal spec, but you are also playing it badly". If you play a spec that has less potential but you play it really well then there is never any problems at all. Casual or not you must look at your own guilds progress to determine if it was a valid request. If you are stuck on boss X and more dps can help and you have player A in sub optimal spec pulling shit dps then a good start to kill boss X is have them swap specs for more dps!

Casual =/= bad play

[Spoiledkid]

Dude, the target content is NORMAL MODE. I Agree with you for heroic progression, but for normal progression it won't matter whether the OP plays destro or affliction. If the raid wipes in normal usually there are a lot of other fails involved. A THEORETICAL dps gain of 10K for one person won't make a difference.

If he does 50% of theoretical dps, it is still 5k dps gain. And bosses like Blade Lord will be easier if you have enough dps. If you don't, you won't have enough time for P2 and just can't kill him.