Boy... this makes me really eager to stop advocating mens rights...

[Deleted]

Men and women are objects to each other. The attraction between them is mostly sexual.

What..? You ever been in a proper relationship?

I'm not talking about the lying about the father, but about lying about using contraceptives. She says she uses contraceptives but in reality doesn't to get pregnant. If she was honest about not using contraceptives, the man wouldn't have sex with her and there would be no child.

As bad as the men refusing to use a condom if the woman say she's not using contraceptives. I been there. Basically got a "Handle it yourself if you get pregnant" from the guy even though he didn't want to use a condom because "it ruins the feeling". Never again will I agree to that, was worried like hell for a good while and even more so when my period did not come as usual.

Yes, it does happen that men want sex without condom despite the woman not using contraceptives.

[Snowmist]

In regards to children, get a parental test if you have any hint of a doubt, easy and cheap to do nowadays and you don't even need the mother's permission, you can even get it done by post or get home dna test kits for like 30 bucks. That or appear on shows like Maury Povitch, Jerry Springer like shows - lol

[Malkhor]

which they are doing to preserve their relationship, not be ebil gold diggers, which is the implication i got. so i think its fair to ask how guys compare in the same area before going "WOMEN ARE ALL EVIL LIARS TRYING TO TRAP INNOCENT MEN".

The fact you even thought of saying this really just proves the point of the thread.

[Laize]

Honestly, Laize, you may not "hate" women, but there is a through line in your posts about them that points to a kind of bizarre paranoia about them all being on the hunt for men to enslave with their cum-hungry vaginas.

I gather that you think you are presenting the flipside of the feminist coin but there is a marked difference. Most mainstream feminisms (queer, materialist, marxist, french, postmodern) don't ascribe to men as a class the kind of willful predatory disposition that you seem to perceive in women. - Note that words like masculinism, heteronormativity, misogyny, patriarchy, etc. all exist precisely to identify that the problem is not a specific individual but a series of power relations. Most feminisms are concerned with structures, traditions, privileges, positions, expectations, conditions, etc. These are all things that are often unexamined, unnoticed, naturalized, or reified by mainstream culture. That's why they use words like patriarchy, because they often aren't talking about "a man" doing these things, but systems that were designed by a society that historically privileged men. So long as you keep turning this into a gallery of slights committed by women against men (or in this case, a collection of potential injustices that some women say they would hypothetically consider perpetuating) all you're doing is playing a game of "we're screwed too" which is all well and good, but men are being screwed over by a legal system that is and was wholly created, maintianed, and deployed by men so if you have anyone to blame for these problems, its the same patriarchy that feminists fight against.

I never once claimed or even thought that women were out to get men.

I absolutely think women like that exist and that there should be legal protections against them for men, however.

There currently are none. There should be.

---------- Post added 2013-01-17 at 03:05 AM ----------

No, I get the point he is making, but it is not just men who suffer. Take the whole ordeal with Kirsten Stewart. Had sex with that director and she ended up losing quite a few movie contracts over it. There are examples of the flip side.
my beef with this rant was his referral to women as being "whores." Why are they whores? Why aren't the men involved also whores? Nope, they are just being guys.

No they're not. He flat-out says that what they did should be considered despicable things.

---------- Post added 2013-01-17 at 03:06 AM ----------

This is why surveys are bad at generalizing. You'd have to have much more than 5k people to generalize to >3 billion

Oh really? It seems to be a big enough sample size for most research.

---------- Post added 2013-01-17 at 03:08 AM ----------

Yeah a survey conducted by a random teenage girls' magazine that routinely publishes trash, about what little girls think they might do, is totally a scientific and unbiased basis for generalising about what half the population actually does. While acting super morally superior because the survey only talks about women.

Nope nothing wrong with this logic or hypocrisy.

Maybe if MRA "activists" would find actually credible sources upon which to base their outrage against women, people would actually take them seriously.

The survey was commissioned by them, not performed by them.

[starlord]

The fact you even thought of saying this really just proves the point of the thread.

what point would that be?

[Laize]

Look. I'm not claiming all women do this. It's obviously not a thing that even comes up that often (Though the 1-in-25 number is pretty scary).

My entire point isn't that women are liars, cheats or whores. It never was and never will be.

My point is that women like that DO exist and there should be legal protections against them.

As Bill Burr says, these are the equivalent of wife-beaters for men. No reasonable woman thinks all men are wife-beaters. No reasonable man thinks women (or any person, rather) shouldn't have protections against domestic violence, either.

Why do some women seem to get so worked up when men ask for protections against women who pull the kind of crap like lying to a man about paternity?

[Malkhor]

I do not think they have any valid rational reason for this. It's a base instinct, not one that's predicated on anything that makes good sense.

A lot of things are basic things are basic instincts does that somehow make them less important? Feelings are feelings, doesn't matter where they come from. Love is sort of a basic instinct as well no?

---------- Post added 2013-01-17 at 04:15 AM ----------

what point would that be?

Well, you're a woman (correct me if I'm wrong, I seem to recall you saying this somewhere) and you make it sound like it's not an act so despicable words almost cannot describe it, thus proving the point of the survey and the concern of a lot of people in here.

[starlord]

Look. I'm not claiming all women do this. It's obviously not a thing that even comes up that often (Though the 1-in-25 number is pretty scary).

My entire point isn't that women are liars, cheats or whores. It never was and never will be.

My point is that women like that DO exist and there should be legal protections against them.

As Bill Burr says, these are the equivalent of wife-beaters for men. No reasonable woman thinks all men are wife-beaters. No reasonable man thinks women (or any person, rather) shouldn't have protections against domestic violence, either.

Why do some women seem to get so worked up when men ask for protections against women who pull the kind of crap like lying to a man about paternity?

why couldnt you have just said this in the first place instead of linking some BS survey?

[Laize]

which they are doing to preserve their relationship, not be ebil gold diggers, which is the implication i got. so i think its fair to ask how guys compare in the same area before going "WOMEN ARE ALL EVIL LIARS TRYING TO TRAP INNOCENT MEN".

I feel the need to backpedal a bit and address this.

No one thinks women are all evil liars trying to trap innocent men.

There do exist women who are evil liars who are trying to trap innocent men, however.

The fact that she's lying about who the father of her kid is to preserve her relationship absolutely reeks of self-interest and gives exactly zero fucks about the man. The fact that you are trying to justify such an abhorrant lie that leads to a man raising another man's kid (Which is an 18-20 year investment of time, energy and resources) strikes so far beyond the pale I find it difficult to believe you actually thought this would convince anyone. I don't even think any reasonable woman in this thread would agree with your implication that what she's doing is defensible.

[starlord]

Well, you're a woman (correct me if I'm wrong, I seem to recall you saying this somewhere) and you make it sound like it's not an act so despicable words almost cannot describe it, thus proving the point of the survey and the concern of a lot of people in here.

i think its important to look at the intent before you generalize people as being malicious.

[Laize]

why couldnt you have just said this in the first place instead of linking some BS survey?

Look at any other thread I've suggested men need protections in.

In almost every single one, several people come in and sarcastically say "MEN NEED PROTEKSHUNS FROM EVIL WIMMINZ!!!" or some other nonsense.

[starlord]

I feel the need to backpedal a bit and address this.

No one thinks women are all evil liars trying to trap innocent men.

There do exist women who are evil liars who are trying to trap innocent men, however.

The fact that she's lying about who the father of her kid is to preserve her relationship absolutely reeks of self-interest and gives exactly zero fucks about the man. The fact that you are trying to justify such an abhorrant lie that leads to a man raising another man's kid (Which is an 18-20 year investment of time, energy and resources) strikes so far beyond the pale I find it difficult to believe you actually thought this would convince anyone. I don't even think any reasonable woman in this thread would agree with your implication that what she's doing is defensible.

i dont think its defensible, but nor do i think theyre putting on their snidely whiplash face just for the lulz either.

[Deleted]

Look at any other thread I've suggested men need protections in.

In almost every single one, several people come in and sarcastically say "MEN NEED PROTEKSHUNS FROM EVIL WIMMINZ!!!" or some other nonsense.

The man should be using a condom if he's not sure about whether the woman is using contraceptives or not.

[Laize]

i dont think its defensible, but nor do i think theyre putting on their snidely whiplash face just for the lulz either.

No, they're doing it purely out of their own self-interest.

You think real life bad guys KNOW when they're doing something evil? Even Hitler legitimately thought the world would be better off without the Jews.

Everyone's the good guy in their own mind.

[Daskapital]

Look. I'm not claiming all women do this. It's obviously not a thing that even comes up that often (Though the 1-in-25 number is pretty scary).

My entire point isn't that women are liars, cheats or whores. It never was and never will be.

My point is that women like that DO exist and there should be legal protections against them.

As Bill Burr says, these are the equivalent of wife-beaters for men. No reasonable woman thinks all men are wife-beaters. No reasonable man thinks women (or any person, rather) shouldn't have protections against domestic violence, either.

Why do some women seem to get so worked up when men ask for protections against women who pull the kind of crap like lying to a man about paternity?

First of all, the equivalent of wife-beaters for men are husband beaters.

The thing about asking for protections against this is that you already do have protections against this. Sabotaging birth control is usually charged as violence or sexual violence. Here in Canada, that is called Vitiating Consent by Fraud and it is considered at the very least a form of battery, I am sure your country has similar laws.

Lying about paternity in order to obtain money is out and out fraud.

These are crimes that already have laws against them.

[starlord]

No, they're doing it purely out of their own self-interest.

You think real life bad guys KNOW when they're doing something evil? Even Hitler legitimately thought the world would be better off without the Jews.

Everyone's the good guy in their own mind.

i would wager the majority of them simply wouldnt have the courage to tell such "earth shattering" news. they might not even be sure in any case whos it was. is it right? no, but its not like theyre forming an evil plot to make mens life hell just 'cause. a very few might, but i doubt you have to worry about them if youre under the six figure range.
a man should absolutely get a paternity test if hes in doubt, and he shouldnt have to pay child support if its not his. not because of evil plots by women, but because shit happens.

[DisposableHero]

Why do some women seem to get so worked up when men ask for protections against women who pull the kind of crap like lying to a man about paternity?

Because the dialog in our society does not permit women to do wrong. Nor does it permit men to be victims. It is because our society views men as disposable servants, beasts of burden. That is why phrases like "man up" exist to shame men into putting the desires of others before their own desires. That is why self sacrifice is the only male trait society celebrates.

Society does not value men as people, it values them as providers, who provision for women and children. Our culture is based on this perception of the male gender, it is as old as humanity itself. Society is currently incapable of considering the desires, suffering, or opinions of men unless they conform with the norm that they should be in service of women. You literally cannot live a day in the western world without seeing a myriad of examples of how men are viewed as disposable servants with no desires of their own.

This is why cutting a man's genitals off is humorous but women being struck even when they are more than deserving of it is a travesty. This is why lifetime alimony, no fault divorce exist but battered men's shelters do not. This is why rape accusers are afforded more protection and their cases more zealously prosecuted than any other crime in our society. This is why thousands of incarcerated men have been exonerated by DNA testing but their false accusers are never charged. This is why suicide rates for men are almost four times higher than suicide rates for women. This is why the vast vast majority of the homeless in North America are men. This is why the spell checker on MMO champion recognized misogyny but not misandry. Try it. Every major spell check system for every word processor on the planet can tell you that misogyny is a real word. A tiny fraction of them will tell you misandry is a real word. There really is not more powerful way to say that our society does not value men as people. It does not consider hating them as a group to even be possible.

[Daskapital]

Because the dialog in our society does not permit women to do wrong. Nor does it permit men to be victims. It is because our society views men as disposable servants, beasts of burden. That is why phrases like "man up" exist to shame men into putting the desires of others before their own desires. That is why self sacrifice is the only male trait society celebrates.

Society does not value men as people, it values them as providers, who provision for women and children. Our culture is based on this perception of the male gender, it is as old as humanity itself. Society is currently incapable of considering the desires, suffering, or opinions of men unless they conform with the norm that they should be in service of women. You literally cannot live a day in the western world without seeing a myriad of examples of how men are viewed as disposable servants with no desires of their own.

This is why cutting a man's genitals off is humorous but women being struck even when they are more than deserving of it is a travesty. This is why lifetime alimony, no fault divorce exist but battered men's shelters do not. This is why rape accusers are afforded more protection and their cases more zealously prosecuted than any other crime in our society. This is why thousands of incarcerated men have been exonerated by DNA testing but their false accusers are never charged. This is why suicide rates for men are almost four times higher than suicide rates for women. This is why the vast vast majority of the homeless in North America are men. This is why the spell checker on MMO champion recognized misogyny but not misandry. Try it. Every major spell check system for every word processor on the planet can tell you that misogyny is a real word. A tiny fraction of them will tell you misandry is a real word. There really is not more powerful way to say that our society does not value men as people. It does not consider hating them as a group to even be possible.

Cute. Take a bunch gender inequalities created under patriarchy and then blame women for them... Call it misandry, if you want, but at the end of the day its patriarchy, hypermasculinism, and heteronormativity that puts you into those positions for failing to live up to the ridiculous standards that your own archaic values (the same ones that privileged you as primary agent, pater familias, and property owner for millenia) have wrought for you. I understand the frustration you feel at not being able to live up to what a "man" is supposed to be, but you've been hoodwinked into thinking that it is the people beneath you who have made you subservient rather than the power structures from which you simultaneously derive privilege.

[Deleted]

Not every woman can abort or give the child away, and if you ask me why, you should check on your biology reasons.

Yes they can.......

[Laize]

First of all, the equivalent of wife-beaters for men are husband beaters.

The thing about asking for protections against this is that you already do have protections against this. Sabotaging birth control is usually charged as violence or sexual violence. Here in Canada, that is called Vitiating Consent by Fraud and it is considered at the very least a form of battery, I am sure your country has similar laws.

Lying about paternity in order to obtain money is out and out fraud.

These are crimes that already have laws against them.

You'd like to think that, wouldn't you? There's no shortage of men who thought their gf/wife was on the pill who sabotaged their birth control. No shortage of men who have to pay child support to children who aren't even theirs. Here's a poor dude who is paying child support to a biologically intact family. His wife cheated on him, married the man she cheated on him with and still collects child support from the poor sap.

So no, dear reader, these protections don't exist in America. In fact they don't exist in MANY western countries.

THAT'S what Men's Rights is about.