5.2 tuning pass

[Carp The Fish]

It was one or two builds ago. My question is, did they buff Envenom and Dispatch AGAIN, or am I remembering them saying "We're buffing those two abilities" in the Balance thread and now the change is implemented?

[Wow]

Just thought I put these here

Undid the buff to Vitality for Combat. It's back to 30% AP.

We are concerned that fully geared Subtlety, Enhancement and Windwalker DPS are still too high. None of these are particularly easy specs to play, so it might be okay that given that players won't realistically be able to hit their theoretical maxima. Just wanted to let you know they are on our radar.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...1?page=80#1591

[D3athsting]

Just thought I put these here

Undid the buff to Vitality for Combat. It's back to 30% AP.

We are concerned that fully geared Subtlety, Enhancement and Windwalker DPS are still too high. None of these are particularly easy specs to play, so it might be okay that given that players won't realistically be able to hit their theoretical maxima. Just wanted to let you know they are on our radar.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...1?page=80#1591

Yes plz nerf sub! Top 3 rogues in the world with fully hc gear and sub spec could beat mages !! This cannot be!!
Here's a suggestion: if u can't address subtlety's scaling why don't you delete the spec at all? None will miss it since we already have only 2 viable specs...

[Deleted]

Yes plz nerf sub! Top 3 rogues in the world with fully hc gear and sub spec could beat mages !! This cannot be!!
Here's a suggestion: if u can't address subtlety's scaling why don't you delete the spec at all? None will miss it since we already have only 2 viable specs...

You clearly don't play PvP -.-

[Verain]

Yes plz nerf sub! Top 3 rogues in the world with fully hc gear and sub spec could beat mages !!

Note that arcane is nerfed from live, and I believe affl is as well.

This cannot be!!
Here's a suggestion: if u can't address subtlety's scaling why don't you delete the spec at all? None will miss it since we already have only 2 viable specs...

You clearly don't play PvP -.-

If he PvPed, he'd complain about 0 viable specs...

[orderofmaken]

Either he is being sarcastic as usual or trolling... sure, in a perfect scenario Sub can pull close to combat and assassination if played perfectly at the moment in bis gear. I'm not that convinced it will scale that far ahead of the two in just a tier that it will suddenly become obscenely over the top over everything else especially given the recent buff assassination received to dispatch and envenom.

[D3athsting]

I think the reason behind subt's obnoxius scaling is sinister calling which gives agility a colossal EP value causing the spec to go from cr*p at expansion start to godmode at expansion's end, need a fix? Remove Sinister Calling and buff Bstab Hemo and rupture, less passive dmg and less steep scaling for the spec...

[Sesshou]

Damn it, I wanted my extra 5%. Also the tooltip still is showing 56% AP for 5cp envenom which isn't changed to reflect this supposed 20% buff.

[Kael]

I think the reason behind subt's obnoxius scaling is sinister calling which gives agility a colossal EP value causing the spec to go from cr*p at expansion start to godmode at expansion's end, need a fix? Remove Sinister Calling and buff Bstab Hemo and rupture, [removed] less steep scaling for the spec...

I think this is pretty spot on from a control point of view. The passive damage argument I agree with for completely unrelated reasons, but for scaling, all they have to do is adjust the bonuses that make gear LEAP ahead for subtlety. A nerf to Sinister Calling and a buff to base damage on sub's attacks would keep it in line at the high end, and help it catch up at the base.

---------- Post added 2013-02-26 at 04:10 PM ----------

Damn it, I wanted my extra 5%. Also the tooltip still is showing 56% AP for 5cp envenom which isn't changed to reflect this supposed 20% buff.

I'm hoping that's just tooltip error, given the updated blue post with 5.2 changes still showing 20% to envenom.

[Ryme]

I really want more real world tests with subtlety done, if both third party and internal sims show it being ahead, I think we have to accept the possibility that it is.

Honestly, the only thing holding it back now, in my opinion, is positioning requirement - which isn't too much of a big deal this tier, but I hear it's a chore in the next

[Menk]

I raided with sub for a good few weeks. On fights where there is little movement or rotation disruption, sub pulled comparitively higher numbers. So encounters such as HOF 1st and MV 3rd it was better but considerably worse on encounters such as HOF 2nd. Assassination suits more encounters at the moment so that's why it pulls higher on WoL. With combat losing cleave, optimal spec combo may be ass and sub come 5.2.

[Sesshou]

I really want more real world tests with subtlety done, if both third party and internal sims show it being ahead, I think we have to accept the possibility that it is.

Honestly, the only thing holding it back now, in my opinion, is positioning requirement - which isn't too much of a big deal this tier, but I hear it's a chore in the next

Well that was talking about fully geared 5.2. And only 1 3rd party resource is showing that at the current gear level. Shadowcraft is showing sub reasonably close to what real world testing is showing, and I bet you that with the SV buff if you were to put in ilvl 538 bis gear, sub would look really good in that too due to its scaling (which granted is assuming patchwerk scenarios we aren't likely to see).

[Ryme]

Well that was talking about fully geared 5.2. And only 1 3rd party resource is showing that at the current gear level. Shadowcraft is showing sub reasonably close to what real world testing is showing, and I bet you that with the SV buff if you were to put in ilvl 538 bis gear, sub would look really good in that too due to its scaling (which granted is assuming patchwerk scenarios we aren't likely to see).

Fair. It does seem to be going with the prediction that subtlety would fall where it did in Cataclysm, behind in the opening tier, competitve/ahead mid tier, ahead in late tier.

As for shadowcraft, how far behind is it showing a fully geared subtlety rogue to a fully geared assassination rogue? The site breaks for me when I'm work, so I can't go do this myself

[Deleted]

Assassination: 127.967 DPS
Combat: 124.952 DPS
Sublety: 122.672 DPS

[Ryme]

That's a nice spread, comabt seems a little high though. For completeness and contrast, simc has:

Assassination: 115,261 - Percentage difference: 9.5%
Combat: 110,285 - Percentage difference: 11.7%
Subtlety: 115,777 - 5.6%

[Deleted]

That's a pretty big discrepancy - guess we have to talk about settings. I was running with all buffs except using and receiving tricks on cooldown, 360sec fight as a troll with leatherworking and enchanting.

The interesting bit is how the specs compare to each other. In my all three specs are within 4,2% of each other. Of course playing sub perfectly is a lot harder than playing assa perfectly, so it might be a bit more than that in reality, but still quite nice if you ask me.

[Elmurda]

That's a nice spread, comabt seems a little high though. For completeness and contrast, simc has:

Assassination: 115,261 - Percentage difference: 9.5%
Combat: 110,285 - Percentage difference: 11.7%
Subtlety: 115,777 - 5.6%

Vitality with 30% or 35%?

[Sesshou]

That's a nice spread, comabt seems a little high though. For completeness and contrast, simc has:

Assassination: 115,261 - Percentage difference: 9.5%
Combat: 110,285 - Percentage difference: 11.7%
Subtlety: 115,777 - 5.6%

Is that with your gear? The simc bis t14 hm list (which I think is what he was pulling shadowcraft numbers for) has:
Ass 122859
Com 118672
Sub 124411

[Ryme]

Vitality with 30% or 35%?

25%

Is that with your gear? The simc bis t14 hm list (which I think is what he was pulling shadowcraft numbers for) has:
Ass 122859
Com 118672
Sub 124411

How odd :S This was on a 25k iteration sim with BiS profiles... What version of simc are you using?

---------- Post added 2013-02-28 at 10:00 AM ----------

Found the issue, my simc is still set to 600 second length with no vary - a relic from when I was testing some odd ideas, I'll rerun to double check.

---------- Post added 2013-02-28 at 10:07 AM ----------

Assassination: 117,329
Combat: 112,384
Subtlety: 117,711 (oo a palindrome!)

This represents an 8.3%, 10.1% and 4.0% drop from the shadowcraft results respectively.

[Avengerx]

25%



How odd :S This was on a 25k iteration sim with BiS profiles... What version of simc are you using?

---------- Post added 2013-02-28 at 10:00 AM ----------

Found the issue, my simc is still set to 600 second length with no vary - a relic from when I was testing some odd ideas, I'll rerun to double check.

---------- Post added 2013-02-28 at 10:07 AM ----------

Assassination: 117,329
Combat: 112,384
Subtlety: 117,711 (oo a palindrome!)

This represents an 8.3%, 10.1% and 4.0% drop from the shadowcraft results respectively.

So that would mean with the 30% vitality the 112,384 would go up to 116,87936?

Do these numbers include the buffs to assasination already? Or that still would have to be added to the above mentioned number?