1.3 million sub drop

[Granyala]

Sorry but it is a fact its dying the question is how long until its dead 5 months....5 years...50 years...No one knows but it is dying this isn't a argument its a fact anyone to disagree's is just in denial.

Good one. We're all just dying then. ^^

and bring in some fresh blood - this is an innovation industry and the definition of stale is having the same people at the top driving the "Innovation" year after year.

Lots of folks quit because they are frustrated by the constant class changes they can't keep up with.

[Teriz]

the barrier for entry is too high for WoW.

Most people that are interested in trying out a new game, just want to buy the game and be able to play it. With WoW, you have to buy the game, then buy several more games, then set up your subscription. Then you can finally play.

If they really wanted to survive, stop separating the expansions from the original game. Every new expansion should come with ALL previous games. This would allow new players to revive the game.

I'm pretty sure that the previous expansion come in a value pack that costs like 20 bucks or something. It's not that big of an investment.

You also get to play the first 20 levels for free.

[imnotatroll]

Sorry but it is a fact its dying the question is how long until its dead 5 months....5 years...50 years...No one knows but it is dying this isn't a argument its a fact anyone to disagree's is just in denial.

Feel free to bash/yell at me but yes wow is dying anything that can age is dying wow is not immune to this rule. The difference in a few years ago and now is we see it more clearly with the sub drop.

WOW will never reach 12 million subs again "unless they pull a rabbit out of the hat" and subs will get lower until they balance out at some point for awhile but even that won't be forever.

Blizzard themselves have done stated that by the end of MOP subs will be lower. No clue how low that will be would be 1 sub could be 1 million more subs.

My personal guess is it will be around 5-6 million subs left when mop ends.

You're wrong. IT'S NOT AN ARGUMENT, IT'S FACT.

Guess your bulletproof debate strategy backfired.

[Antipathy]

Lots of folks quit because they are frustrated by the constant class changes they can't keep up with.

Class changes are one component of innovation, and are by no measure the be-all and end-all.

also, people have unsubbed because Alliance got Shamen. using the Unsub argument is invalid unless you can show that a relevant percentage of people that unsubscribe do so because of class changes.

[Frozen Death Knight]

I would advocate that anyone who is advising an organization to benchmark its performance against significantly smaller competition (particularly when it is the industry leader) and is willing to tolerate double digit subscription losses in a time period of less than a year from a set of designers who have been entrenched in the management structure for many years doesn't at all understand the business world in the first place.

Just to add value to this discussion, when you are the business leader, you set the standards for performance that you can expect, using incremental percentages and based on consumption trends. a 1.3 Million loss of your consumers in a 3 month period is a metric that screams "time for something new" and is by no measure "bringing in the results" as you aptly put it.

I'm also not sure that "Revenue has increased" either...

Should these guys be recognized for their past contributions? sure, give em a big fat bonus, offer them an executive consulting role, and bring in some fresh blood - this is an innovation industry and the definition of stale is having the same people at the top driving the "Innovation" year after year.

The investments for the game since its creation has long since been paid back in spades. So yes, the game has been a ridiculous success, and it still will bring in enough revenue for the game to be updated with expansions and patches. The investors obviously don't agree with your assessment by how they continue to invest in the game and Blizzard so they can make new games and expansions.

Also, I am not advocating anything of the sort. Their own performance speaks for itself and it states that despite the sub losses, they still manage to keep the investors happy when the company keeps going plus.

Have you not even paid attention to the revenue reports they have had the last few years? It has been increasing, even when they lost subscribers in Cataclysm. Don't know how it looks at this very moment, but nothing has suggested that they have had a bad start in 2013 when their games remain popular and brings in revenue (i.e. HotS and Diablo 3).

Heck, Blizzard even expected the subs to drop even more this year, and nothing drastic is happening. What do you think that says about the situation when the developers themselves don't even seem to worry that much about it and will continue with the plans they have already made before this announcement? If anything, people on this forum seems to make a bigger deal about it than the ones that should.

[Antipathy]

The investments for the game since its creation has long since been paid back in spades. So yes, the game has been a ridiculous success, and it still will bring in enough revenue for the game to be updated with expansions and patches. The investors obviously don't agree with your assessment by how they continue to invest in the game and Blizzard to make new games.

That would be fine, If I had made an assessment on whether or not the game has been lucrative or whether or not it was successful - The investors make the call on who sits on the board of an organization, and have no say over what the design team looks like, this is usually in the hands of the CEO. This is not a discussion about investor confidence or whether the game has been a success - so this entire paragraph is moot.

Also, I am not advocating anything of the sort. Their own performance speaks for itself and it states that despite the sub losses, they still manage to keep the investors happy when the company keeps going plus.

yes you are. you baited Pann into a discussion about how Blizzard are doing much better than the competition and because of that they are doing great. When Pann brought up the SW example, you knocked Him/Her down. you opened that door and promptly closed it. your justification was, "they are doing better than the competition and therefore all is well" it speaks well for itself.

and OK, another reference to investor confidence, which is not the point of the discussion. Investors may be confident for other reasons than management competence, and a lot of WoW's investors also hold a stake in Activison, which used to be an entirely Separate but also immensely lucrative company - just as an aside the stock price dropped, btw, after close of trading hours on that day, and has only just rebounded. I don't want to enter into an investor confidence discussion because we are both so incapable of making such an assessment.

Have you not even paid attention to the revenue reports they have had the last few years? It has been increasing, even when they lost subscribers in Cataclysm. Don't know how it looks at this very moment, but nothing has suggested that they have had a bad start in 2013 when their games remain popular and brings in revenue (i.e. HotS and Diablo 3).

I have not, but several posters have put up graphs and charts in previous pages showing a quarter-on-quarter decline in revenue (I cannot corroborate these) - the last revenue spike corresponded with an expansion release and they can't exactly release those on a quarterly basis. If I am wrong, then I am wrong, and would like to see the actual revenue gain(s) to carry this discussion forward.

Heck, they even expected the subs to drop even more this year, and that is something Blizzard even expects. What do you think that says about the situation when the developers don't even seem to worry that much about it and will continue with the plans they have already made before this announcement? If anything, people on this forum seems to make a bigger deal about it than the ones that should make a deal about this.

No one designs an expansion with the "Understanding" that it will be losing subscribers. I think the fact that they don't seem to worry much about sub losses speaks volumes about how jaded they are. You would think, that a developer closely interfacing with a client base on a daily basis, would show a great deal of passion about this subject in particular - they certainly are extremely passionate when they have sub gains.

I haven't really seen much of a "Big deal" in this thread other than some very intelligent discourse and speculation as to why subs have declined - People love to speculate.

[Frozen Death Knight]

That would be fine, If I had made an assessment on whether or not the game has been lucrative or whether or not it was successful - The investors make the call on who sits on the board of an organization, and have no say over what the design team looks like, this is usually in the hands of the CEO. This is not a discussion about investor confidence or whether the game has been a success - so this entire paragraph is moot.



yes you are. you baited Pann into a discussion about how Blizzard are doing much better than the competition and because of that they are doing great. When Pann brought up the SW example, you knocked Him/Her down. you opened that door and promptly closed it. your justification was, "they are doing better than the competition and therefore all is well" it speaks well for itself.

and OK, another reference to investor confidence, which is not the point of the discussion. Investors may be confident for other reasons than management competence, and a lot of WoW's investors also hold a stake in Activison, which used to be an entirely Separate but also immensely lucrative company - just as an aside the stock price dropped, btw, after close of trading hours on that day, and has only just rebounded. I don't want to enter into an investor confidence discussion because we are both so incapable of making such an assessment.



I have not, but several posters have put up graphs and charts in previous pages showing a quarter-on-quarter decline in revenue (I cannot corroborate these) - the last revenue spike corresponded with an expansion release and they can't exactly release those on a quarterly basis. If I am wrong, then I am wrong, and would like to see the actual revenue gain(s) to carry this discussion forward.



No one designs an expansion with the "Understanding" that it will be losing subscribers. I think the fact that they don't seem to worry much about sub losses speaks volumes about how jaded they are. You would think, that a developer closely interfacing with a client base on a daily basis, would show a great deal of passion about this subject in particular - they certainly are extremely passionate when they have sub gains.

I haven't really seen much of a "Big deal" in this thread other than some very intelligent discourse and speculation as to why subs have declined - People love to speculate.

My original statement was that the competition is weak, therefore Blizzard does not really push themselves further than they already do. Heck, I even stated that the game and its flaws have done a lot of damage to the subscription numbers, so how does that align with your assessment?

What happens financially affects organization as well. If the investors aren't happy, then that will influence decisions in the rest of the company. I know that they don't control everything, but my point by bringing it up was that their influence matters.

Things go up and down, yes, but what matters is that subscription numbers don't make or break their quarter reports when they still can go plus. The company as a whole performs well and produces good results. This may or may not change in the future. Probably the revenue will go down when they don't have any major releases in a while. We'll see what happens when Hearthstone launches.

You need to read the forums on MMO-Champion a bit more. Also, I don't doubt that there are intelligent discussions about the topic as well.

[Biggles Worth]

I don't pay to play, I sell my gold to pay for my subscription and I still don't play WoW.

[Shennanigans]

Its just an older game. Speaking for myself I have just lost interest over all. Not saying new content was particularly bad or good. Doing anything for as long as I have good as it has been in the past reaches a point thats its just not as much fun as it used to be. I still think its an incredibly fun game for a new person and wish I could someone experience all over again.

[Pann]

Wait, did you just have SW: TOR and successful in one sentence? Why should I even take you seriously at this point?

They do work hard. Contrary to internet belief, if they did not work hard they would not be employed to work on WoW. Their hard work has paid off as well, so replacing them when they still manage to keep the revenue flowing in after all these years is outright moronic. Again, you would make a terrible business man with your less than stellar logic.

Hmm, reading what I wrote again, no, no I did not have SWTOR and successful in one sentence. Is there anything else I can help you with?

On serious note being successful is not the same as whether or not you think SWTOR is a good game. There is a strong argument to be made that SWTOR's inability to retain and build on the initial rush of subscribers when it was released meant that it was unsuccessful however EA have reacted to this poor performance and by changing the payment system have managed to attract 1.7 million new customers and double revenue in the process. That is a success in anyone's book.

Again how do you know? As I said in my previous post what Blizzard achieved in the past is amazing and I am sure that the people responsible were adequately rewarded for their efforts at the same time they have to take responsibility for current decline it is no good patting them on the back and praising them for the work they did three or four years ago when their current work is causing your product to lose money year on year.

[Ausr]

How do you know how hard Blizzard's developers work? Blizzard have not performed well attracting new customers since 2008, five years, and for the past two and half they have been losing customers at alarming rate. In most businesses after such a long period of failure if the current people are not capable of pushing it further you find people that are.

Err... what? I believe at the end of Cata, they actually regained subs and stopped the bleed.

[Pann]

Err... what? I believe at the end of Cata, they actually regained subs and stopped the bleed.

And where are they now?

[Lilly32]

Theres finally decent free games out there: Aion, GW2, Tera, SWToR, etc. Hell I seriously think that WoW is the only MMO left that even has a sub now that I think about it. While one of those alone wont pull a lot of subs from WoW add them all up and they do. Theres just no reason to pay even $15 a month if there are other decent games out there you can hop around to every few months that dont cost anything. I use to only have WoW installed on my PC. Now I have 5 MMOs installed. Free games means people can finally try something that maybe they werent ready to commit $60 + a sub fee for. Then after they play it they go "Damn why wasnt I playing this before its pretty fun and I dont have to pay for it"

[Frozen Death Knight]

Hmm, reading what I wrote again, no, no I did not have SWTOR and successful in one sentence. Is there anything else I can help you with?

On serious note being successful is not the same as whether or not you think SWTOR is a good game. There is a strong argument to be made that SWTOR's inability to retain and build on the initial rush of subscribers when it was released meant that it was unsuccessful however EA have reacted to this poor performance and by changing the payment system have managed to attract 1.7 million new customers and double revenue in the process. That is a success in anyone's book.

Again how do you know? As I said in my previous post what Blizzard achieved in the past is amazing and I am sure that the people responsible were adequately rewarded for their efforts at the same time they have to take responsibility for current decline it is no good patting them on the back and praising them for the work they did three or four years ago when their current work is causing your product to lose money year on year.

It was a figure of speech. The success part was in the contents of your post.

SW TOR was a financial failure. There is no argument there. Have never mentioned my personal opinion of what I think of this game in this thread and I have no plans to do so.

How hard a worker works does not determine how successful his/her work will be. Also, if they did not work hard so they fulfilled the company's production schedule they would be fired. Also, Blizzard itself acknowledges their employees to be hard workers, and they are the ones who hired them. Arguing that they don't work hard would undermine Blizzard's ability to actually get the right people, so Blizzard is a lost cause in that case when they don't know what the crap they are doing when hiring for their own company.

[paralleluniverse]

Theres finally decent free games out there: Aion, GW2, Tera, SWToR, etc. Hell I seriously think that WoW is the only MMO left that even has a sub now that I think about it. While one of those alone wont pull a lot of subs from WoW add them all up and they do. Theres just no reason to pay even $15 a month if there are other decent games out there you can hop around to every few months that dont cost anything. I use to only have WoW installed on my PC. Now I have 5 MMOs installed. Free games means people can finally try something that maybe they werent ready to commit $60 + a sub fee for. Then after they play it they go "Damn why wasnt I playing this before its pretty fun and I dont have to pay for it"

"Decent free game" is a oxymoron. There's no such thing. You mean shitty, moneygrubbing, F2P games.

[Pann]

It was a figure of speech. The success part was in the contents of your post.

SW TOR was a financial failure. There is no argument there. Have never mentioned my personal opinion of what I think of this game and I have no plans to do so.

How hard a worker works does not determine how successful their work will be. If they did not work hard so they fulfilled the company's production schedule they would be fired. Also, Blizzard themselves acknowledge their employees to be hard workers, and they are the ones who who hired them. Arguing that they don't work hard would undermine Blizzard's ability to actually get the right people, so Blizzard is a lost cause in that case when they don't know what the crap they are doing when hiring their own developers.

I only mentioned success in that post when talking about WOW not SWTOR.

Without access to EA's I don't see how you are able to make that determination undoubtedly it did not meet the expectations placed on it by players and the gaming press and possibly EA. However EA have taken steps to change this they merged servers when their populations became low and they changed the payment scheme and have reaped the benefits since.

Nonsense, a worker that works hard will be more successful than one that does not. Again you do not know how hard they work, the fact that losses are continuing and no one has been fired suggests that there are failures at a management level in either getting the best from their employees and turning the losses around or addressing the under performing workers.

[HardCoder]

Nobody is going to buy a game, and 4 expansions and subscription to be able to play a new game when there are so many F2P options out there.

A million plus people do exactly that every year with WoW: Buy it and play it.

So if by "nobody" you mean "less than the population of most European nations" then you are correct.

[Pann]

A million plus people do exactly that every year with WoW: Buy it and play it.

So if by "nobody" you mean "less than the population of most European nations" then you are correct.

Where do you get this figure from?

[Frozen Death Knight]

I only mentioned success in that post when talking about WOW not SWTOR.

Without access to EA's I don't see how you are able to make that determination undoubtedly it did not meet the expectations placed on it by players and the gaming press and possibly EA. However EA have taken steps to change this they merged servers when their populations became low and they changed the payment scheme and have reaped the benefits since.

Nonsense, a worker that works hard will be more successful than one that does not. Again you do not know how hard they work, the fact that losses are continuing and no one has been fired suggests that there are failures at a management level in either getting the best from their employees and turning the losses around or addressing the under performing workers.

We were talking about the success of Blizzard's competitors and you brought up SW TOR, a game that got released at a time when the revenue from EA took a massive plummet. By all accounts the game failed to bring in the desired revenue that EA wanted from it. How do you think I should respond to that when you bring it up after everything that has happened since it got released? That it was "all well and good" as another poster phrased it to me?

A worker can work hard his/her whole life and barely be able to make a decent living or be recognized for his/her work. Someone else does not need to do even half of that work and still be far more successful and recognized for his/her achievements. Having a successful product may need hard work to make it so, but to what degree it will be successful is not, and it is also not even guaranteed if it will even pay off. You're confusing smart work with hard work.

I say they work hard because that is what's required of them. Also, I don't appreciate when people start talking about laying off people because they did not manage to be quite as successful as before, especially when their work still brings in a respectable amount of success after so many years.

Their head management is planning for newer games like Titan and Blizzard All-Stars as long term goals for the company. They are moving on from WoW being their main source of income when the game cannot bring in the same numbers it did before. The most sensible thing they can do, since relying on WoW like they have done is bad.

[HardCoder]

Where do you get this figure from?

Among other things, Blizzard has stated that the WoW player base has turned over several times.

But that's what we want to hear. What we don't want to hear is that the same people have been playing the same time-consuming game for 7 years, because at some point, they are either going to die fat and lonely in their mom's basements, or get a life and have a spouse who bitches at someone playing 20 hours a week.