Can we have casual gear progression content that isn't a raid?

[Kelimbror]

Straw mans his own argument to sound more intelligent.

Welcome to hypocrisy.

I'm not sure you even understand what these buzzwords you're throwing out mean. Obviously there's no productive conversation to have with you. Welcome to MMO-C. You'll fit right in.

[Keoren]

Personally I'd have implemented the downscaling from challenge mode so it is impossible to out gear those bosses and then tuned it for the most common denominator: Item level 463.
There ya go: Brawlers challenge w/o the need to raid.

I think that the biggest problem with this is that the classes are not balanced when it comes to Brawler's Guild. Some will have a notably easier time completing the encounters.

[nekobaka]

Additionally, why does a raider have the right to kill anything faster, farm more efficiently, or generally do anything in the world better than someone who doesn't raid? It's completely illogical. Sure, let them be super fantastic at raiding, but there's more in the game than that.

It is illogical that a player who puts in far more effort and conquers a challenging boss is more powerful than someone who only kills low level mobs?

You do not need the gear for dailies but it is helpful. If Blizzard makes the dailies content actually require character progression and need stronger gear just to beat then I am all for it.

I think that the biggest problem with this is that the classes are not balanced when it comes to Brawler's Guild. Some will have a notably easier time completing the encounters.

That was one of the reasons why Blizzard did not want to spend resources on such a system when players asked for it back in BC I think. Blizzard making it so that it doesnt provide character progression which limits the amount of nerf QQ it would get probably helped made the imbalance issues less of a problem.

Wrong... All provide valor which can be used to purchase gear or upgrade. In-fact, challenge modes reward to greatest amount. Also, 3 of the 4 provide direct gear rewards.

Challenge modes are only the most efficient given a capable group and there still is a VP cap that those doing dailies can hit. If this was the WotLK model then those who do dailies would only get a fraction of those who did dungeons in a weeks time.

[Granyala]

I think that the biggest problem with this is that the classes are not balanced when it comes to Brawler's Guild. Some will have a notably easier time completing the encounters.

Aye, that might be a problem. Depends on the aggressiveness of the tuning. But I think that locking out any healer/tank player is a far bigger concern.
Right now a healer has ZERO interesting / challenging content outside of Raids (maybe challenge modes? not sure never played them :X), and I find that very sad.

In fact I have absolutely nothing interesting to do with my healing alts @ 90, since I can't dedicate more than one character to raiding due to burnout.

[nekobaka]

Right now a healer has ZERO interesting / challenging content outside of Raids (maybe challenge modes? not sure never played them :X), and I find that very sad.

Same with me. I really like group based holy trinity content and five mans can be fun if they are not a steamroll from launch. It is sad that we lost engaging heroics because Blizzard removed normal modes and tried to shove everyone into heroics.

[Kelimbror]

It is illogical that a player who puts in far more effort and conquers a challenging boss is more powerful than someone who only kills low level mobs?

This statement yields many assumptions and opinions on value of content that aren't relevant to the discussion. No one established exact conditions for the non raiding content. Why must your side of the argument always jump to conclusions that the non raiders will simply knock over a few field mice and go colect their 4 pc tier set? It's an argument of extremes in order to favor your position and it's not logical.

Also, what you place emphasis on (raiding = hard) isn't accurate either. The game currently dictates that it is by reward systems only, but you can't say that because it's just an opinion. What requires certain skill levels might be equivalent to completing x number of quests. Because in reality, the only currency in MMO's is time. Everything takes time.

Sure skill needs to still be rewarded somehow, even if it's just cosmetic, but skill and raiding are not mutually exclusive.

[Granyala]

What I want to know is why does there have to be even more solo stuff in an MMO in the first place?
WoW has an incredible amount of solo content. Hell you can get almost the item level of normal mode raiding w/o ever having to actually deal with another player, since LFR is pretty much like Unreal Tournament with Bots.

I get that peeps have timetables and that coordinating Real life + 24 other people ain't always easy.

But since the inception of the 10man raiding, that problem is pretty much gone. Now people want more.
What next? 5 man raiding? Solo raiding?

Where does the crap stop and peeps say "Dude. MMO. Not meant to be soloed."

Imho what WoW would really need to spice things up, is a character progression system OUTSIDE of the item level treadmill.
No I do not have any good ideas about that one, and apparently neither has Blizzard. ._.

[nekobaka]

This statement yields many assumptions and opinions on value of content that aren't relevant to the discussion. No one established exact conditions for the non raiding content. Why must your side of the argument always jump to conclusions that the non raiders will simply knock over a few field mice and go colect their 4 pc tier set? It's an argument of extremes in order to favor your position and it's not logical.

Because there are posters who want exactly that. Popular threads in Cata wanted full tier gear from only doing five mans without stepping foot into a raid. There are still players complaining that they have to do a raid in order to get tier gear.

Raids are designed with gear progression in mind, dailies are not and why those who only do dailies do not need the gear. I am in support of dailies getting a similar progression model where players will actually need better gear in order to progress along the chain.

Solo raiding?

Have you seen the complaint threads about some old bosses not being soloable as if Blizzard declared that old content is supposed to be soloed? Its like the idea of grouping up with someone and possibly sharing loot with them is blasphemy.

[Aquamonkey]

Imho what WoW would really need to spice things up, is a character progression system OUTSIDE of the item level treadmill.
No I do not have any good ideas about that one, and apparently neither has Blizzard. ._.

Pet Battles.

[Kelimbror]

What I want to know is why does there have to be even more solo stuff in an MMO in the first place?

Simple. MMOs exist to make money. They aren't charity works. Developers have lots of data that supports the majority of players are now 'solo'. Upwards of 60%. The average break down is 60% solo, 20% raiders, 20% pvp.

People want to point to focusing on solo (misnomer as 'casual') as the reason why subs decline, but that's not even remotely accurate. Like GC even admitted on a recent GBTV interview, when the game was at its peak the leveling and intro content served that 60%, but that doesn't fly anymore.

They know that people can't just level forever, so they have to deliver content for them. They've got to diversify the content and speed up the production.

[Aquamonkey]

Simple. MMOs exist to make money. They aren't charity works. Developers have lots of data that supports the majority of players are now 'solo'. Upwards of 60%. The average break down is 60% solo, 20% raiders, 20% pvp.

Source?

People want to point to focusing on solo (misnomer as 'casual') as the reason why subs decline, but that's not even remotely accurate. Like GC even admitted on a recent GBTV interview, when the game was at its peak the leveling and intro content served that 60%, but that doesn't fly anymore.

Even if that number was accurate, that doesn't make it solo content.

If solo'ing was such a major focus of the game, Blizzard wouldn't be trying so hard to populate the world with CRZ and virtual realms. It's an MMO, you're supposed to interact with other players.

[Kelimbror]

Because there are posters who want exactly that. Popular threads in Cata wanted full tier gear from only doing five mans without stepping foot into a raid. There are still players complaining that they have to do a raid in order to get tier gear.

Yeah, but most of those people can have their opinions tossed out too....but you're wrong on thinking wanting gear from doing dungeons is somehow a sin. There's nothing wrong with wanting 'raid gear' outside of raiding, because what we keep calling 'raid gear' is actually gear based progression for your character.

If you want to blame someone for why this is what is desired, blame the people who make MMOs. They established that gear is the only meaningful progression of your character and design around that concept.

Raids are designed with gear progression in mind, dailies are not and why those who only do dailies do not need the gear. I am in support of dailies getting a similar progression model where players will actually need better gear in order to progress along the chain.

I think the levels of contrast are very large, but they still exist in both elements of the game. New daily hubs are certainly designed with gear progression in mind. I could probably get by with doing ToT dailies on my fresh 90 in greens and blues, but it's going to take 5x longer than it should and be very difficult.

Would it be better if world content got a similar progression model of its own? Yes. I said so as much earlier in the thread.

Have you seen the complaint threads about some old bosses not being soloable as if Blizzard declared that old content is supposed to be soloed? Its like the idea of grouping up with someone and possibly sharing loot with them is blasphemy.

No, but again...Blizzard are the ones who have now reinforced this desire. It may have originated improperly, but Blizzard accepted it and started the nerfs, started placing incentives on old content, and gave no reliable way to group up for this content.

Like it or not, game system and reward designs have a heavy hand in what people expect from content. Pet battles are an arguably very individual activity. You don't need to group up to pet battle. Collecting pets is a large part of the gameplay for that content. Now there are pets in just about every old raid there is. It's natural for people to expect each class to be able to solo them now, because of that bar that has been set.

I think it's a great change in this example, as do many other people who run the old raids, since it has made a lot of old content relevant again. There's positives and negatives to any change.

---------- Post added 2013-06-17 at 04:57 PM ----------

Source?

Carbine Studios. Look it up yourself.

PS- Most of the people working there created WoW.

[Granyala]

Pet Battles.

Yeah.. no. There really is no character progression here. My Draenei doesn't change in any way whether I have played Pet Battles or not.
Also they are extremely grindy and boring, all you have to do is level a rare of each family(?) to 25 and pick the right ones for the trainers.

They know that people can't just level forever, so they have to deliver content for them. They've got to diversify the content and speed up the production.

Let them do that, I have 0 problems with it. But the best stuff a.k.a. Heroic gear or maximum character progression has to be reserved to group play. Because even if it is a game, you have to motivate people to participate. If you offer the same rewards for soloing, raiding will die due to cost benefit ratio todays players obsess about.

Sometimes I ask myself whether peeps play the game to have fun or just want the maximum rewards, to stimulate their addicted brains, they can get with the minimum playtime/effort they can get away with.

[Osmeric]

Load up on full i463 gear only, and then complete a set of dailies on Thunder Isle. Let me know how it goes.

It's not that hard. I just did the first solo scenario there on my SPriest (ilvl 458).

[Kelimbror]

Let them do that, I have 0 problems with it. But the best stuff a.k.a. Heroic gear or maximum character progression has to be reserved to group play. Because even if it is a game, you have to motivate people to participate. If you offer the same rewards for soloing, raiding will die due to cost benefit ratio todays players obsess about.

Sometimes I ask myself whether peeps play the game to have fun or just want the maximum rewards, to stimulate their addicted brains, they can get with the minimum playtime/effort they can get away with.

The problem is like you stated, everything has to have rewards for motivation. You can't simply put something there and expect it to be compelling. No content can stand on it's own anymore. And certainly not in this game.

I would be completely ok with alternate progressions outside of gear, but what can never change (especially in WoW) is that character progression typicaly equals power gain.

[Aquamonkey]

Yeah.. no. There really is no character progression here. My Draenei doesn't change in any way whether I have played Pet Battles or not.
Also they are extremely grindy and boring, all you have to do is level a rare of each family(?) to 25 and pick the right ones for the trainers.

Whether you find it interesting or not, collecting the different pets and building a stronger library is a type of progression.

[Poundcake]

Why do you need gear if you don't raid? Gear is only required for raiding.

[yjmark]

Right now a healer has ZERO interesting / challenging content outside of Raids (maybe challenge modes? not sure never played them :X), and I find that very sad.

In fact I have absolutely nothing interesting to do with my healing alts @ 90, since I can't dedicate more than one character to raiding due to burnout.

Isn't that what Proving Grounds is supposed to do?

---------- Post added 2013-06-17 at 09:05 PM ----------

Why do you need gear if you don't raid? Gear is only required for raiding.

Because increasing the power of your toon is fun. No progression = boredom for a lot of folks.

[tenzing21]

Two reasons:
1 - Because raiding content is already being created. It makes great economic sense to use the assets you have, and it frees them the manpower to work on different things.

You... do recognize that Paul Sams bought a minority stake in the Pittsburgh Steelers for $400,000,000 right?? if they don't have resources to spend on content, they have no one to blame but themselves when the new crop of games comes out, one of which (and one eventually will) decimates WoW.

[Aquamonkey]

Carbine Studios. Look it up yourself.

PS- Most of the people working there created WoW.

1. I'm not going to go searching for your sources. If you want to throw out numbers as fact, point to the source directly. Until you do, your numbers should be regarded as bullshit.
2. They created WoW? So that means they worked on it 9+ years ago? Why would anything they have to say be relevant to the current breakdown of players or the current direction of the game?