Why do lesser skilled players feel entitled to see content?

[Glorious Leader]

Sounds like your a useless part of the community then.

LOL. You would not think me (or my spiritual brothers and sisters) useless if we all packed up and left tmmrw and raids kicked the bucket. Then you'd see our use.

[namelessone]

He actually seems like an asshole and you seem no better with your response. Thankfully I don't have to play with someone who sounds as hateful as YOU. Zergal is atleast a tolerable person someone that will host raid pugs for the community is far better for the game then people who fling insults around.

"host raid pugs for the community" Oh my god, PRAISE THE SAVIOR! Do you even realize how condescending that sounded? Community shouldn't rely on the likes of Zergal to play the damn game.

[Normie]

Tyrant officer. How do you get around in the real world when you percieve a team leader leading a group as a tyrant.

I don't think you understand the difference between "tyrant" and "leader."

I imagine that most despotic GMs and officers think they are "leaders." They're wrong of course.

[Deleted]

No shit, really? Incidentally, I started playing mid-TBC. Like I say, my memories are hazy, and I don't expect my experience to have been like others. My point is that those dungeons were easy in raid gear, the difference is that raid gear today is much more prevalent.

Its ok, just wanted to say TBC heroics were (imo) perfectly tuned.

And even in raid gear you could still wipe in MgT for example. The problem I have since WotlK is that heroic apparently means "zerg everything down in 20 minutes even in blue gear". Trust me, Cataclysm heroics werent even half as hard as TBC ones, and still people cried and got them nerfed. Which just shows how the playerbase degrades after you put out dumbed down content like WotlK heroics.

[Glorious Leader]

"host raid pugs for the community" Oh my god, PRAISE THE SAVIOR! Do you even realize how condescending that sounded? Community shouldn't rely on the likes of Zergal to play the damn game.

Assholes or benevolent tyrants it really doesn't matter. Having to rely on the kindness and generosity of the few who actually were kind and generous (and I did meet some while pugging although they were few) is terrible.

- - - Updated - - -

Step down, buddy. You literally know nothing about me. And its going to stay that way, so might want to refocus the debate where it belong or you'll quickly end up ignored.

And i literally have no interest in telling you how to play, all i care about is the quality of the game as a whole. Casual play is fine, hardcore play is fine, but neither must come at the expense of the other and thats exactly what LFR does.

No it doesn't. That's you making up rhetoric. Hardcore play has never been more hardcore. The only thing that has been lost has been your ability to tell others how to play or what to do or even what standards to play at. Well that's fine, you can still play hardcore nobody cares.

[wordup]

"host raid pugs for the community" Oh my god, PRAISE THE SAVIOR! Do you even realize how condescending that sounded? Community shouldn't rely on the likes of Zergal to play the damn game.

ACTUALLY, it should. People organising puts is what this game RELIES on. Let's take an example here:
http://www.wowprogress.com/guild/eu/...ting.tier15_25

THIS is a community organised pug that evolved, but for an entire year from Ulduar onwards through Wrath, this was a pug on my server Ravencrest. This was organised by a player who chose to do it, and without that there's hundreds of people who wouldn't have got raids on alts, mains or otherwise.

People in the community stepping up and helping to organise things is what's important. You're attacking the wrong person, because you seem to think the game should evolve a community on its own and not have people who actually keep it rolling over.

[namelessone]

Step down, buddy. You literally know nothing about me. And its going to stay that way, so might want to refocus the debate where it belong or you'll quickly end up ignored.

And i literally have no interest in telling you how to play, all i care about is the quality of the game as a whole. Casual play is fine, hardcore play is fine, but neither must come at the expense of the other and thats exactly what LFR does.

*sigh* no it doesn't. It doesn't hurt GOOD players, it only hurts players who can't find people to play with naturally, who relied on forcing others to play with them. I see pugs forming daily, I can show you screenshots FFS, so when you tell me it doesn't happen, the only thing I read is that it doesn't happen WITH YOU. Which tells me a lot about what kind of person you are.

[Dormie]

Sounds to me like some people had their feelings hurt at some point and are scarred because of it.

LFR is acidic to the integrity of the content as a whole.

[nekobaka]

The fact that neither I nor anyone else has to suck up to you or some other child tyrant/guild officer in order to gain permission to play the whole game is another reason why it has more than 1 million subscribers today.

If you feel like you have to suck up to someone then your doing it wrong. Also these players do not hold the keys to the instance. You still reserve the option to lead your own raid. Do not bash others for your own choice to leave them the responsibility of leading a raid. This player also pays for the game and have a real life, they are not running a charity.

[Theodoxus]

I put forth very little effort to get where I am. This expansion more then ever. I personally define myself as casual.

anaxie, your sig states your ilevel is 548. My best toon is ilevel 521 - that's primarily shado-pan valor gear and the remaining 502s from LFR. I still have 2 weeks to go to fully upgrade the items, which should put me at 524. You. You are not casual, regardless of what you might think.

If you're doing normal and heroic raiding - which your ilevel suggests - you aren't casual, and you're pissing off those of us who are. Please stop.

[Robert3620]

The only people lfr has had any bad effect on is the social guilds that use to be doing normal that saw normals get tuned past them. LFR has been a huge victory for the hardcore crowd. Normal got tuned higher to please them, nerfed less to stop the bads from seeing THERE content. Now tho your still unhappy and want to take it a step further. Now it's lets design content for less then 1 percent of the players and tell the others to get lost.

Side Note: Glorious Leader, I really like your avatar. Would you mind if I steal it for STO?

[namelessone]

ACTUALLY, it should. People organising puts is what this game RELIES on. Let's take an example here:
http://www.wowprogress.com/guild/eu/...ting.tier15_25

THIS is a community organised pug that evolved, but for an entire year from Ulduar onwards through Wrath, this was a pug on my server Ravencrest. This was organised by a player who chose to do it, and without that there's hundreds of people who wouldn't have got raids on alts, mains or otherwise.

People in the community stepping up and helping to organise things is what's important. You're attacking the wrong person, because you seem to think the game should evolve a community on its own and not have people who actually keep it rolling over.

No, I'm attacking the right person, the "gatekeeper" player who thinks he has the right to choose which of his peers "deserves" to play the game. You think they are doing community a favor by organizing pugs, but they are only contributing to the exclusivity of the community, the development of bullshit cliques and alienation.

[Glorious Leader]

Sounds to me like some people had their feelings hurt at some point and are scarred because of it.

LFR is acidic to the integrity of the content as a whole.

If I could go back in time to whoever on the development team came up with the idea of lfr and somehow snuff out that idea I would. I would literally give these players what they're asking because the consequence of what they are asking is apparently so far out of their purview that they are oblivious. Please please please blizzard get rid of lfr, grant them their wish and all the consequences that come with it. Then you can tell them careful what you wish for..

[Normie]

ACTUALLY, it should. People organising puts is what this game RELIES on. Let's take an example here:
http://www.wowprogress.com/guild/eu/...ting.tier15_25

THIS is a community organised pug that evolved, but for an entire year from Ulduar onwards through Wrath, this was a pug on my server Ravencrest. This was organised by a player who chose to do it, and without that there's hundreds of people who wouldn't have got raids on alts, mains or otherwise.

People in the community stepping up and helping to organise things is what's important. You're attacking the wrong person, because you seem to think the game should evolve a community on its own and not have people who actually keep it rolling over.

Organized raiding is never going to be, from this point onward, something that a community involving a significant percentage of the WoW player base will or can be organized around.

It's an unpopular fringe activity with a player base that is distinct from the rest of the player base.

WoW needs community, I agree, but raiding will not, can not be that community. Just not going to happen. I'm not sure it ever did happen but if so it lived and died in Wrath.

[thorvath]

He actually seems like an asshole and you seem no better with your response. Thankfully I don't have to play with someone who sounds as hateful as YOU. Zergal is atleast a tolerable person someone that will host raid pugs for the community is far better for the game then people who fling insults around.

Admittedly I only read the last few pages but you alternate between telling tales of how you are so great that you inspire other people and posting how not all Heroic Raiders are elitist jerks.

I hate to tell you this but giving those poor LFR raiders a pat on the head and a "good job champ" is still being a jerk. You just happen to be a condescending one.

[wordup]

anaxie, your sig states your ilevel is 548. My best toon is ilevel 521 - that's primarily shado-pan valor gear and the remaining 502s from LFR. I still have 2 weeks to go to fully upgrade the items, which should put me at 524. You. You are not casual, regardless of what you might think.

If you're doing normal and heroic raiding - which your ilevel suggests - you aren't casual, and you're pissing off those of us who are. Please stop.

No, that's incorrect also. Being casual is based on time input and effort to a lot of people. To someone who raids 7 days a week, a raider who still clears things a month later but only raids 4 days a week is relatively casual. It is a subjective definition of playstyle, and to be offended because someone defines himself as casual is fairly immature given how bi-polar the definitions of casual and hardcore are these days.

[GrieverXIII]

anaxie, your sig states your ilevel is 548. My best toon is ilevel 521 - that's primarily shado-pan valor gear and the remaining 502s from LFR. I still have 2 weeks to go to fully upgrade the items, which should put me at 524. You. You are not casual, regardless of what you might think.

If you're doing normal and heroic raiding - which your ilevel suggests - you aren't casual, and you're pissing off those of us who are. Please stop.

I know Anaxie's guild, they clear H:ToT in one night by now, maybe 2 if they fuck H:Lei Shen too badly and second one is a short one and a lot of their players only log in to raid. I'd be willing to bet they probably spend less time on the game than you during farm.

[Dormie]

anaxie, your sig states your ilevel is 548. My best toon is ilevel 521 - that's primarily shado-pan valor gear and the remaining 502s from LFR. I still have 2 weeks to go to fully upgrade the items, which should put me at 524. You. You are not casual, regardless of what you might think.

If you're doing normal and heroic raiding - which your ilevel suggests - you aren't casual, and you're pissing off those of us who are. Please stop.

Wrong. Being able to get on for 4-5 hours a week could still be considered casual. When I raided I was never 'hardcore'. I got on on raid times, stuck with the group for as far as we could get, and logged off. It's that simple.

YOU don't have the time for the game. Don't expect the game to make time for you. It's just the kind of game WoW is(was).

[Glorious Leader]

The only people lfr has had any bad effect on is the social guilds that use to be doing normal that saw normals get tuned past them. LFR has been a huge victory for the hardcore crowd. Normal got tuned higher to please them, nerfed less to stop the bads from seeing THERE content. Now tho your still unhappy and want to take it a step further. Now it's lets design content for less then 1 percent of the players and tell the others to get lost.

Side Note: Glorious Leader, I really like your avatar. Would you mind if I steal it for STO?

It's all yours brother. I agree with your post btw. Hardcores have it so good they don't know but since they don't have the entire pie well their some victimized minority.

- - - Updated - - -

I know Anaxie's guild, they clear H:ToT in one night by now, maybe 2 if they fuck H:Lei Shen too badly and second one is a short one and a lot of their players only log in to raid. I'd be willing to bet they probably spend less time on the game than you during farm.

They did not however do this when 5.2 first came out. They are hardcore for all intents and purposes either as defined by "skill" or "time". The word itself is big enough to contain both meanings. I'm sure they consider themselves casuals. I clear tot in one night to (on lfr and on normal) and I consider myself a casual. I guess that makes annaxie and me the same?

[wordup]

No, I'm attacking the right person, the "gatekeeper" player who thinks he has the right to choose which of his peers "deserves" to play the game. You think they are doing community a favor by organizing pugs, but they are only contributing to the exclusivity of the community, the development of bullshit cliques and alienation.

No, you are turning what is someone organising and creating accessibility to players into extreme hyperbole of him stomping down the weak amazing player who turns up ungemmed and unprepared for raids, because he can't "have faith". YOU are projecting that one guy that told you no in a pug onto every pug creator, which quite simply doesn't happen. You may have had a bad experience, we have all had bad experiences, damn, I've had some god awful terrible experiences, you just need to accept that when dealing with other people, sometimes, standards can be different.