New Set Bonuses – 5.4 PTR

[Koji2k11]

Are you also looking at VW damage and energy return (and the damage caused by that energy) for Mut? Rupture does great damage for subt and boosts ALL your other damage by 20%, so you must not be looking at it in that spec. It's a fairly minor boost for Combat and can be ignored if you really want (as you said).

Also, how is this related to anything in this thread?


These numbers were posted a few pages back. It's 10 energy for combat (was 5 then patched iirc).

i understand why it is usefull for mut but fact is you could just aswell replace rupture with a buff which is passive or tied to SnD because rupture is realy weak for assassination also there were times where the debuff from Hemo applied this i think it was 16% debuff on the boss it got removed with MoP tho

also how is talking about how unviable sub is in ToT related to anything in this thread well all know why sub sucks in MoP we dont have to point out its problems

[Squirl]

also how is talking about how unviable sub is in ToT related to anything in this thread well all know why sub sucks in MoP we dont have to point out its problems

It's related because the new set bonuses (the topic of this thread) are making subt look really, really good. However, there are still fundamental issues with the spec that could hamper its raid viability. ToT is just used for context since we don't know exactly how bosses in SoO will play yet.

[Coldkil]

The damage provided by the 4t16 is really, really high. Bosses for sure won't be all a patchwerk fight, but if the damage provided by the bonus is great, it could compensate for the other spec issues (eg: downtime) and make sub actually viable.

It's not a good approach imho to give a spec uber bonuses to make it viable, but at least i'll give sub a try in 5.4 (when i get the new tier).

[D3athsting]

The damage provided by the 4t16 is really, really high. Bosses for sure won't be all a patchwerk fight, but if the damage provided by the bonus is great, it could compensate for the other spec issues (eg: downtime) and make sub actually viable.

It's not a good approach imho to give a spec uber bonuses to make it viable, but at least i'll give sub a try in 5.4 (when i get the new tier).

Weak classes, strong set bonuses, are they trying to balance a class in pve without unbalancing pvp?

[Coldkil]

Very likely. Still bugs me a little. But if there's no better way, i welcome the change.

[finn]

Very likely. Still bugs me a little. But if there's no better way, i welcome the change.

well said. that's exactly what i was thinking. they won't fix the rogue class mid-x-pac, so they bandaid it by creating a stupidly OP setbonus. hit like a truck when having uptime on the boss's back; dropping like **** when not being able to stand behind him. it's ok if it averages out in being able to play competitively. hopefully, we will receive a review in 6.0. for the time being i'll take this bandaid.

[SilkDath]

I remember reading on a number of occasions, that we will not be receiving a warlock-type review, but they lie all the time to throw people off /tinfoilhat.

We will get some big(ish) tweaks imo, but don't expect a tear down and rebuild.

[theherecy]

Out of interest could we get some numbers for each spec. I see a lot of people talking about how good the bonus is for sub but it's way behind as it is. Also seeing as how the energy costs varied from 5 to 20 energy (according to some of the posts on this thread) how much more of an impact is that.

[D3athsting]

I remember reading on a number of occasions, that we will not be receiving a warlock-type review, but they lie all the time to throw people off /tinfoilhat.

We will get some big(ish) tweaks imo, but don't expect a tear down and rebuild.

All we'll get will be new visuals! Hurray!!

[finn]

All we'll get will be new visuals! Hurray!!

i hope not!
as someone already said: "the last thing a raiding rogue needs is even more visuals and *bling**bling*, it already is a mess!".

it's ok if they don't want to give us a warlock-like revamp. although i'd really like to see something like that, maybe it would be a little too much, who knows? but at least they should give us three specs that play differently, that feel differently. just like the mage-specs. i like them a lot. they are quite close but yet they have their own "playstyle", their own "identity".


/e: aw, sry, i think i got carried away for a sec. let's get b2t: t16 set-bonusses.

[Coldkil]

While i'd like a warlock-style revamp, i think the core of the class is really really solid and doesn't need changes.

What has been pointed out (and seems to be recognized by developers) is that our three specs basically play the same - we don't need an entire class mechanics revamp, but a specs revamp (which is btw what warlocks have gone through).

I just hope they don't end doing "hey, we made snd combat only and given assa and sube two different finishers to juggle", because it won't change a single thing.

[D3athsting]

a deep revamp is needed idd, rogue is unappealing and boring to the bone atm and i don't need to go and look at population data, i only need to look at my own guild, almost every guild m8 has from 2 to 5 alts that they use to run lfr/bgs/alt raids on weekends (i can count about 50 alts), guess how many have a of them have a rogue at 90? only 1 and he doesn't even play him because when he reached 90 he felt shocked on how bad the class was, i've only seen 1 maybe 2 apply from rogues in a year and half probably they know that they aren't needed and they will almost surely rejected, then blizz keep saying we're FINE (most inflated word ever used by blizz) and only need new visuals, it reminds me of a football (soccer for u.s.) team coach whose team loses all matches and he keeps saying "we play very well, my team only needs a new cooler outfit"...

[whathump]

Fierydemise, can you rerun the value of the 2 piece based on the latest changes in the energy reduction values for it?

Combat: 15 (up from 10)
Sub: 2 (down from 3)
Assassination: 6 (down from 20)

[Sesshou]

I'd be more interested to see the new values for the sub 4pc (and and the value for the 4pc if you also use the cd reducing trinket).

[NeverStop]

While i'd like a warlock-style revamp, i think the core of the class is really really solid and doesn't need changes.

What has been pointed out (and seems to be recognized by developers) is that our three specs basically play the same - we don't need an entire class mechanics revamp, but a specs revamp (which is btw what warlocks have gone through).

I just hope they don't end doing "hey, we made snd combat only and given assa and sube two different finishers to juggle", because it won't change a single thing.

Rogue specs are different enough if you compare them to the 3 hunter specs. Assassination is more about maximizing Rupture / Envenom uptime, Combat is spam abilities every GCD, Sub revolves around Find Weakness burst.

[D3athsting]

Rogue specs are different enough if you compare them to the 3 hunter specs. Assassination is more about maximizing Rupture / Envenom uptime, Combat is spam abilities every GCD, Sub revolves around Find Weakness burst.

Atleast they have black arrow and explosive shot for surv, kill command for bm, chimera shot and aimed shot for mm, we have evis and envenom that are quite similar except envenom ignoring armor and giving buff, plus and their talents actually make sense (e.g.: glaive toss for single target, barrage for aoe) rogue talents make no sense, anticipation is clear winner everywhere for pve.

[finn]

Rogue specs are different enough if you compare them to the 3 hunter specs. Assassination is more about maximizing Rupture / Envenom uptime, Combat is spam abilities every GCD, Sub revolves around Find Weakness burst.

although i can't say a thing about hunters and their specs for i don't have a raiding hunter toon, i disagree with your statement about rogue-specs.
since we have a buttload of haste (+ t15 bonus on top), it is hardly a challenge to keep your envenom uptime as high as your uptime on the boss. so it comes down to: spam your mutilate-button, spam your envenom button, refresh rup 2 secs before it drops (and playing with anticipation it never ever drops, if you can stay on the boss!), keep your CDs on CD.

and combat has become a spammy mess, literally! once i popp my CDs i kind of feel like a pornstar on crack (and i guess i am just as exhausted after a boss-battle!). it's totally not fun, at least for me. and yet, the pattern is just like playing assas: spam sinister strike, spam evis, refresh RevSt and S&D, keep your CDs on CD. you can even skip rupture for it is only a minor DPS gain (for maximum DPS you can weave that in during a red BG-phase, which isn't that hard once you have a feeling for the ebb and flow of that mechanic).

and what about sub? sub is dead, baby, sub is dead.
(but i am really hoping for a resurrection in 5.4 with CD-reducing trinket and t16. keeping my fingers crossed!)

so, at the end of the day, we are left with only two viable specs that play way too similarly. let's hope for some fresh air in 6.0 (and for those hunters out there, too), because playing a pure class with three specs that feel the same is NOT fun, at all!

[fierydemise]

Fierydemise, can you rerun the value of the 2 piece based on the latest changes in the energy reduction values for it?

Combat: 15 (up from 10)
Sub: 2 (down from 3)
Assassination: 6 (down from 20)

Updated over at my blog here:
http://roguechat.wordpress.com/2013/...inary-numbers/

Summary of changes:
Combat 2pc: +1000EP
Assassination 2pc: -2000EP
Sub 2pc: -1000EP
Sub 4pc: -4000EP
Assassination bug fixed that was overvaluing it by approximately 2x, it appears to be a pretty weak bonus now.

Sorry for the delay, got back from a conference last weekend so I've been trying to catch up at work.

[Koji2k11]

hmmmm so those set bonuses are worth shit now for assassination ? wonder how they design those bonuses anyway seems so random to me :/

[whathump]

It's disappointing that the 4 piece turns out to be bad. It's much more interesting than "Increases x ability by y%." It'll be better with the CD reduction trinket, at least. I hope blizzard adjusts the numbers on the 4 piece to make it better.