[Holy] Patch 5.4 PTR - Changes Discussion

[Kyuuseishu]

Does it ultimately matter whether it shows up on HPS meters or not, as long as people interpret HPS balance appropriately - as in, expect healers with a DR raid cooldown to have lower HPS than healers with a Tranq-type raid cooldown?

Well it does really because its "effective healing" is how its worth is designated compared to the other raid cooldowns that other classes offer. Realistically for balance all raid CD's should offer similar effective healing, but a situation where DA or PW:B do this in this current raid tier and indeed the next would probably end up killing or nearly killing everyone in the raid anyway.

[Pasture]

Does it ultimately matter whether it shows up on HPS meters or not, as long as people interpret HPS balance appropriately - as in, expect healers with a DR raid cooldown to have lower HPS than healers with a Tranq-type raid cooldown?

It shouldn't matter but we see hps posted all the time. In the absence of Paladins doing any role particularly well they're also more reliant on pure hps as a measurement of what they can contribute.

But ultimately if they change the spell to work they way I suggested it's the exact same DR cooldown spell. It just translates better on the logs. There's not a good reason not to do it.

[Deleted]

It shouldn't matter but we see hps posted all the time. In the absence of Paladins doing any role particularly well they're also more reliant on pure hps as a measurement of what they can contribute.

But ultimately if they change the spell to work they way I suggested it's the exact same DR cooldown spell. It just translates better on the logs. There's not a good reason not to do it.

There is, redundancy

[Pasture]

There is, redundancy

It makes an unquantifiable ability quantifiable. It's not redundant. No more so than allowing hps to be measure in the first place is.

[Yuma8244]

@Pasture but then the ability would likely get stronger/weaker with healing increase/decrease mechanics. Like on the trash before Horridon, there's a good chance healing decrease mechanics would make DA significantly weaker, whereas it doesn't suffer that limitation right now like other healing cds do.

[Absintheminded]

This is a side-topic that really has no place in the current discussion. We know that Devo does not compare to other raid cooldowns, we see it every raid. We don't need to see the numbers of damage reduced to know that Devo does not compare in the least to other healer's raid cooldowns.

[Sellinz]

Hey guys, me and my guilds disc priest have been pretty casually discussing things that would possibly fix some of the issues with paladins while keeping us strong even with the E flame change...Curious about you guys opinions on what we have thought up, though most of it obviously being a bit of a pipe dream as the changes are pretty huge.

Tower of Radiance procs off of all D Lights / Flashes, not just on beacon. It would greatly increase our holy power gen and probably curve us slightly (Radiance is still god tier I feel it would just enable D light being more practical) from the current trend of Radiance > DLight

Beacon procing to heal x amount to a third wounded target, this one in particular would need to be extremely closely monitored in testing to tune the numbers correctly.

[Freia]

In 25m we hardly ever use Divine Light or Flash of Light(minus meta procs) so that definitely would not be enough. And I don't really think this would make me use them more. I would rather cast a mostly overhealing HR to shield stack multiple targets and a mostly overhealing single target heal to only shield stack 1 target. I really don't think it would greatly increase HP generation other than maybe 10m or pvp.

[Deleted]

In 25m we hardly ever use Divine Light or Flash of Light(minus meta procs) so that definitely would not be enough. And I don't really think this would make me use them more. I would rather cast a mostly overhealing HR to shield stack multiple targets and a mostly overhealing single target heal to only shield stack 1 target. I really don't think it would greatly increase HP generation other than maybe 10m or pvp.

Because they are used in 10 man so much.

[Freia]

Because they are used in 10 man so much.

I said maybe 10m. But many people have come in here saying they don't feel the heal snipping I describe in their 10m and can use their single target heals more often.

[Deleted]

Hey guys, me and my guilds disc priest have been pretty casually discussing things that would possibly fix some of the issues with paladins while keeping us strong even with the E flame change...Curious about you guys opinions on what we have thought up, though most of it obviously being a bit of a pipe dream as the changes are pretty huge.

Tower of Radiance procs off of all D Lights / Flashes, not just on beacon. It would greatly increase our holy power gen and probably curve us slightly (Radiance is still god tier I feel it would just enable D light being more practical) from the current trend of Radiance > DLight

Beacon procing to heal x amount to a third wounded target, this one in particular would need to be extremely closely monitored in testing to tune the numbers correctly.

You can use the Beacon glyph and macro it in with flash of heal and divine light so your constantly swapping to generate HoPo. But that takes some healing away from the tanks. And a lot of those DL casts will be sniped by other healers with faster heals and thus result in overhealing. What we would need is a fast cast(1s) low healing spell. But we would end up spamming it. And that would be to op if it would also generate HoPo. Unless they add like a stacking mechanic to the point where you need to cast 2 of them to get 1 HoPo.

So we are stuck again because of HoPo. To much makes us OP to little makes us weak. And besides single target spot healing not quite sure we want to do that. Well maybe if we could cast denounce at friendlies.. that would be oke i guess. More like attonement but direct heals. Still might leave us lacking during the heavy raid wide damage while spread.

- - - Updated - - -

I said maybe 10m. But many people have come in here saying they don't feel the heal snipping I describe in their 10m and can use their single target heals more often.

It's far less of an issue. A lot of the disc healing will simply hit the tank. In 10man you don't have a beacon + earth shield + disc priest Rapture bubbles + monks spam + rejuv on the tank. You can use a lot of holy lights if you want. And yes you end up having to hard cast a lot mroe DL or even FoL to save folks. HoF was quite bad for that if you ran 2 heal with a disc priest. But once i went 525+ i just started going on ham with the HR most of the time and forcing stack ups as long as mechanics allowed it.

Oh yeah it does get worse the more gear the disc priest gets obviously. In normals it's quite oke but once you get heroic bosses on farm. If they drop that spirit shell on cooldown i somtimes end up standing there healing nothing.

[nightfalls]

Here's my thoughts (25m point of view):

1) I combined some quality of life stuff: a) Daybreak should be a smart heal, healing up to 6 injured targets near target of your Holy Shock. The stacking effect should simply be removed and the 100% baseline restored. b) Devotion Aura should also work on Physical damage (this can be made Holy only as well, perhaps call the passive "Aura Mastery"). c) Hand of Sacrifice glyph to remove the damage transferred. Perhaps the damage transfer can also be lowered, this would all be PvP-dependent.

2) Infusion of Light could use a kick. My idea, have that allow Flash and Divine Light to generate 1 Holy Power on non-Beacon targets and heal for 50% extra on the Beacon Target. Holy Radiance could heal for extra. This would actually give Crit some stat weight compared to Mastery, which can loosen Mastery's status as "dominant stat" without having to nerf Mastery with "little or no compensation."

3) Somewhat radical and I used to disagree with this, but perhaps just give in and allow full Melees. We would get 7.5% free hit and expertise (and hence 15% spell hit), and be considered melee for targeting purposes.

4) Haste could also use a boost. One thing, besides having Holy Shock be affected by Sanctity of Battle (keep in mind, to reach a 4 second Holy Shock, you would need 50% haste, or 12695 rating) is to add a HoT effect on Light of Dawn.

5) Posted on official forums regarding EF: Eternal Flame should be baseline for Holy only, and the HoT effect should provide 15% Beacon Transfer (I also argued for 15-50% Illuminated Healing effectiveness). In return, we would have a new single-target based ability in the Level 45 row.

I'll re-quote my idea for a replacement: A single-target "beacon" (similar to sacred shield) that will heal and HoT a nearby injured party member every 3 seconds, with a 50% penalty if the "beacon" himself is healed. Both HoT additions (baseline and optional) further increase the value of Haste. (This would be a copy of my Guardian idea, so both together probably isn't good).

[Deleted]

I said maybe 10m. But many people have come in here saying they don't feel the heal snipping I describe in their 10m and can use their single target heals more often.

Take megaera for example. (a boss with quite a lot of dmg comparatively) - The ONLY way to not be snipped by either the priest or monk is spamming HR for ef blankets. Literally the difference between 60k and 120k hps. Or take durumu. The only heal that 'snipes' correctly is HP. Everything else is better served by an ef blanket to smooth tank dmg except maybe a DL on infusion proc@ bleed thingy. The only time I find myself with significant FoL useage is solohealing DA heroic.

[Ceresc]

Does it ultimately matter whether it shows up on HPS meters or not, as long as people interpret HPS balance appropriately - as in, expect healers with a DR raid cooldown to have lower HPS than healers with a Tranq-type raid cooldown?

Except that most people will NOT interpret it as such. Most players, Raid leads included look at pure throughput as a measure of ability/skill/viability. The only ones NOT looking at that (and understanding utility vs throughput) are some of the top tier world first seeking raid leaders. And I say this because even as 7/13h raid lead, my RL based the skill of our healers on throughput, not utility. Regardless of how much healers will explain this, players are thoroughly set in their ways and will view it as being weaker healer. On paper it sounds good, in reality its a shite outlook.

[nightfalls]

The only ones NOT looking at that (and understanding utility vs throughput) are some of the top tier world first seeking raid leaders.

Let's pretend that we perfectly understand that throughput isn't the only thing. Where do we shine in utility that makes up for our crap throughput? (By the way, Shaman utility in T15, except for Dark Animus, was great).

[Freia]

Take megaera for example. (a boss with quite a lot of dmg comparatively) - The ONLY way to not be snipped by either the priest or monk is spamming HR for ef blankets. Literally the difference between 60k and 120k hps. Or take durumu. The only heal that 'snipes' correctly is HP. Everything else is better served by an ef blanket to smooth tank dmg except maybe a DL on infusion proc@ bleed thingy. The only time I find myself with significant FoL useage is solohealing DA heroic.

You are seriously reading too much into what I am saying and arguing things I never even said. I was speaking on my experience for 25m raiding because that is what I raid. I raided 10m during T14 where I did use a decent amount of single target heals but gear was lower so mana was a little bit more of an issue. So I was saying that for 25m adding HP generation to all Divine Light and FoL casts would not "greatly increase holy power generation". I never said, "All 10m paladins cast is single target heals and you should always be casting single target heals in 10m in all situations!"

Hand of Sacrifice glyph to remove the damage transferred. Perhaps the damage transfer can also be lowered, this would all be PvP-dependent.

The pvp implications actually aren't that Hand of Sac is OP. Pvp paladins actually want the damage there because good paladins can time it right to break cc.

[nightfalls]

The pvp implications actually aren't that Hand of Sac is OP. Pvp paladins actually want the damage there because good paladins can time it right to break cc.

I'm well aware, that's why I suggested it become a Glyph rather than baseline. I also suggested lowering the transferred damage since Holy is not very strong in PvP, that way you'll be less vulnerable to a switch after you Sac.

Off-topic: For the most part, I'm not that dissatisfied with our major glyph choices. Glyph of Illumination and Denounce/Holy Shock could use some major work. Perhaps Harsh Words, but that seems more like a Ret Glyph. I'm wondering what they will do to Divine Plea glyph.

Surprisingly, the rest feel like actual choices. Divinity was probably too mandatory earlier, but I'm not so sure about now - if anything, that glyph could use looking at.

[Freia]

I'm well aware, that's why I suggested it become a Glyph rather than baseline. I also suggested lowering the transferred damage since Holy is not very strong in PvP, that way you'll be less vulnerable to a switch after you Sac.

Off-topic: For the most part, I'm not that dissatisfied with our major glyph choices. Glyph of Illumination and Denounce/Holy Shock could use some major work. Perhaps Harsh Words, but that seems more like a Ret Glyph. I'm wondering what they will do to Divine Plea glyph.

Surprisingly, the rest feel like actual choices. Divinity was probably too mandatory earlier, but I'm not so sure about now - if anything, that glyph could use looking at.

Trust me I want the self damage part gone(dying this week on Council because someone derped and threw the crystal the the frostbite target I had sacced was not fun). I just don't really know how you could glyph that though. Because it would essentially be making the spell worse with no other real benefit or other mechanic change. Possibly buffing the damage reduction and putting the damage transfer on it. But that could be end up being OP and we would probably end up having to glyph it anyways for pve. It was the same issue with SW: Death for priests. They took our the backlash off of it but made it so you could only use it on targets with 20% or less health(which was when pve shadow priests were using it anyways). The glyph made it so you could use it all the time but it had the backlash damage.

[Xs]

Could just reduce HoS damage transfer by 50% (Ie it only gives you half of what you've absorbed) and add a minor glyph to tweak it slightly, say 5% less damage reduction for no damage taken, makes it a nice choice but not something that forces you to waste a major on something so choice based

[Deleted]

Except that most people will NOT interpret it as such. Most players, Raid leads included look at pure throughput as a measure of ability/skill/viability. The only ones NOT looking at that (and understanding utility vs throughput) are some of the top tier world first seeking raid leaders. And I say this because even as 7/13h raid lead, my RL based the skill of our healers on throughput, not utility. Regardless of how much healers will explain this, players are thoroughly set in their ways and will view it as being weaker healer. On paper it sounds good, in reality its a shite outlook.

Why do you think this matters at all? lol... also, depending on whether or not the cloak procs 100% and it procs IH, paladins could still be very strong. Would explain the lack of compensation in the last few builds, they could be considering whether or not it's wise.