(Shadow 4set) Should I drop my 4set or maintain it?

[Lubsin]

us.battle.net/wow/en/character/zuluhed/Sway/advance

I have 2 heroic off pieces that I can replace my normal tier helm, and normal tier chest with. The pieces are: The helm from Heroic Horridon, 2/2 upgraded, and the chest from Heroic Ji-kun 2/2 upgraded. To note, my normal pieces are also 2/2 upgraded. I don't know much about simcraft, so I'm wondering if coming here is the best idea. I've notice that the top ranking spriest are using 3piece or 2piece but they are above or at the 18,200 haste break point. So would it be a dps gain to drop my 4set for two heroic off pieces?

[trakand]

i would say drop spriest and go mage or lock.
spriest will be dead very soon...

[Caprisonne]

I'd say go with 3set. use the set head, since you got the UVLS trinket the crit from the head is a lot less attractive and judging by your hitrating, the set head should do you good.

I havent simcrafted it but it kinda makes sense. haste is still favorable and since you dont have too much hit both stats from the sethead is good and only one from the offpiece head.

[Lubsin]

Thank you =)

[Vargur]

And be glad you have those trinkets.

[Mctriple]

You didn't mention whether or not the heroic pieces are thunderforged, so I'm going to assume they're not and recommend that you keep the 4pc. It's undervalued by a lot of people that aren't really mathy just based on the assumption that apparition procs are crazy wasted. They're not, though, and the 4pc is strong.

[Lubsin]

Hmm, Yeah..... that is what I've been doing. Keeping my 4set

[Vargur]

You didn't mention whether or not the heroic pieces are thunderforged, so I'm going to assume they're not and recommend that you keep the 4pc. It's undervalued by a lot of people that aren't really mathy just based on the assumption that apparition procs are crazy wasted. They're not, though, and the 4pc is strong.

I've seen queues upwards of 20-ish, most commonly 5-10. It'd probably be worth keeping 4p had they hit harder and be faster, instead of going Hc Tf.

[snaxattax]

You didn't mention whether or not the heroic pieces are thunderforged, so I'm going to assume they're not and recommend that you keep the 4pc. It's undervalued by a lot of people that aren't really mathy just based on the assumption that apparition procs are crazy wasted. They're not, though, and the 4pc is strong.

you've made this comment before with zero data supporting it. heroic chest off jikun is *definitely* worth wearing over normal tier chest, and the helm off horridon is still better than non heroic tier in terms of stats.

op should look at your own logs and see whether or not you're wasting apparition procs (look at apparition hits and your SWP tick/mastery crits and 10% of your vt/mastery ticks) to see whether you think the 4 piece is strong enough to keep. it really isn't in 95% of cases.

[Mctriple]

it really isn't in 95% of cases.

Now who's posting things without any support? Imo, the burden of proof lies on people claiming that 6 ilvls on 2 pieces of gear and some better secondary stat optimization outweighs a substantial 4pc set that will proc 40+ extra apparitions in most fights, adding millions of damage in addition to having great synergy with the powerful 2pc. Nobody ever even bothered to see how much DPS is added from those pieces of gear compared to tier while completely ignoring the set bonus, let alone compare the actual set bonus to that gain in DPS. Nobody else, that is. It seems as if a lot of people would be shocked by how little DPS is gained by adding a few stats to our tens of thousands and then shifting some secondary stats around a bit.

I've seen queues upwards of 20-ish, most commonly 5-10. It'd probably be worth keeping 4p had they hit harder and be faster, instead of going Hc Tf.

When you say you've seen queues, you mean because you expected 20 more hits and didn't get them? That's does not mean they're queued. From what I've seen, that doesn't really happen much. Perhaps with an HTF UVLS? I wouldn't know, since I don't have one yet, sadly, but I'm still doubtful. However, very few do have one, yet they're gearing as if they do, and as if even that makes it worthwhile to ditch the 4pc. That seems unwise to me.

RNG swings can be, and very often are, big.

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-lc...?s=3762&e=4195

Ra-den. Surely there are no SA queues in this fight, since we're stacked on the boss 95% of the time, right? I should have seen 187 apparitions from my SWP crits (187 crits, simple) and another 35 from my 4pc (355 VT ticks, 10% chance = 35.5 procs expected), so that's a total of 222 apparitions. I had 261 apparitions hit, so actually my 4pc gave me 74 apparitions, or another 39 more than expected. Seeing 40 less than expected sometimes will likewise usually be RNG. Just as an example, the apparitions from the 4pc on this fight gave me an extra 2.6M damage and extended my dots by roughly 48 ticks (65% chance and 74 extra apparitions). 48 ticks is about 3 VTs and 3 SWPs, or 6 GCDs, right? Since mind flay is 2 GCDs, and we'll assume the worst and fill the extra time we gained by casting our weak filler spell, we gained 3 casts of mind flay just from the 4pc. We need to add that (and the mastery procs) into the 2.6M damage as well. That's another 980K, so in total the 4pc gave me about 3.6M damage on this fight. That increased my DPS by 3.8%

Now, please show me changing 2 pieces to be a bit better itemized and having very slightly more stats adding 3.8% dps. Since we got extra procs, let's cut that in half and get down to a more average 1.9% for a patchwerk-type fight. The difference is considerably more in favor of 4pc on a number of fights that can take even more advantage of the 4pc. Horridon, Council, Megaera, Animus, Twins come to mind easily.

For comparison, on a patchwerk fight, and ignoring the 4pc even with tier equipped, the DPS increased by the higher ilvl and better itemization turns out to be a whopping 1.6% for me (less than the above mentioned 1.9% for patchwerk-styled fights, the bare minimum for the set bonus). The gain you get from Ra-den's pieces is not very big.

[Vargur]

No, I mean queue via WeakAuras.

[Mctriple]

Might want to investigate the accuracy of that aura. It's very unlikely that you actually had a queue that big when the fight ended, unless you got some ridiculous UVLS RNG luck. Even before the 5.4 changes to their speed, it truly doesn't take long to empty a queue, and on all big multidotting fights this tier, you go near the boss at some dump and instantly clear your queue anyway. What fight did you see that on? Apparitions definitely bug out a lot still. I'm guessing you're just tracking SWP crits and subtracting apparition hits? That's probably why it's not really accurate. Even if you take into account the success rate of them for a particular fight, the 4pc is pretty strong. I imagine using the 4pc for progression into early t16 will be even better with their speed and new missile properties.

[Lubsin]

Thanks to all of you taking the time to help me out. I really appreciate it.

[Drye]

If you can get ra den pieces that are perfectly itemized those are superior to 4 pc. If you don't use 4 pc. pretty simple concept.

[Mctriple]

Just a reminder that I'd love to see numbers back up that claim. I gave up hope on that a while ago, though. Think you'll use the 4pc for early t16 progression?

[Drye]

Nope stuff sucks. There's a reason zero respectable shadow priests use 4pc. It's garbage and gets out scaled. Same thing might happen with t16 4 pc.

[snaxattax]

Now who's posting things without any support? Imo, the burden of proof lies on people

no, the burden lies on the person (you) claiming something contrary to all theorycraft and experience up to this point - also the fact that apparition damage is pretty inconsistent when you can't stand in melee.

and the comment wasnt on using HTF over Htier, it was using heroic pieces with haste vs reg tier - reg to heroic is a bigger ilvl jump than going from heroic to htf.

and ra-den is probably one of the best fights for the 4set bonus because of how much time you spend close to the boss and you're multidotting with both dots instead of just swp like most other fights.

and it's funny how you're using your log as some sort of great example of the set bonus beating the average but are also assuming that exactly 65% of your apparitions resulted in a DoT extension.

[Deleted]

Don't know about you, but I feel like my SA are wasted on raden, because you can't move in to make apparations in queue to spawn when YOU want to prolong your LMG/super proc luck DoTs, I rather use SA for prolonging my 80% haste dots with 2 intelect procs. I don't count SA like DPS increase because their movement is buggy and when the target dies they spaz out for 3-5 secs. (better than 5.1 when they stood alongside you on the 2nd HoF boss, not ever thinking to go on him when he appears again) SA generation is totally killed on boss like Ji-kun when you are off platform, they just do not spawn at all and on ji-kun, moving into melee range to make mess there with green pools is not really great idea.
Anyways I rather will have Haste/mastery TFHC pieces than 4pc from ToT, and as many have said here they are many items that are wastly superior to Chest piece,
Best items from current tier are Head(there is better head but capping yourself with only haste mastery items is kinda hard) and Shoulders in my opinion.
Anyways do anyone here thinks that the new 4pc bonus will be even worth getting?(It's only for one cast O.o, would be worth if they did not reverted sweet SW:D)

[Vargur]

Might want to investigate the accuracy of that aura. It's very unlikely that you actually had a queue that big when the fight ended, unless you got some ridiculous UVLS RNG luck. Even before the 5.4 changes to their speed, it truly doesn't take long to empty a queue, and on all big multidotting fights this tier, you go near the boss at some dump and instantly clear your queue anyway. What fight did you see that on? Apparitions definitely bug out a lot still. I'm guessing you're just tracking SWP crits and subtracting apparition hits? That's probably why it's not really accurate. Even if you take into account the success rate of them for a particular fight, the 4pc is pretty strong. I imagine using the 4pc for progression into early t16 will be even better with their speed and new missile properties.

Why don't you just go ahead and try it for yourself instead of doubting everything/everyone.
And fyi I don't have neither BoH or ULVS.

dCKEjaGiI0LqOkJIOCks4vQurZsP4wsPAxK0WuPCmHYYeIEMIyAsuxtP02Kq9ncX4iu15Ks5EkXbr0cvu5HestKeDrPyJeQ8rH0jLiRuvZucUjcP2js6NkQAOsilvk5PcMkrCvfPTIqv9vHQZIq5Tiu5UQuP9IYFfzWuhwflwLQ8yKyYKQllQnRO8zHWOvQoTunBL0Tju2Tc)wsdhPwoP8CcMoQUoc2ocjFNOA8ieoVkz9QuHEVkv18vPcUpcr7hMfJjHfeJf0zbDMewywDWd97yMrnYjSaL6AvJjHrngJ6ng1izIBBXBJTvKIVDlY2ePSiLVXM1(2jmolO3fOxpxsYebNfiEdw4A(zZeYCM4Ax8tezIiXABsXXkE7TIfFBSzTxUmlOLJOxhsUOZSapteCw4OR35964SM4A9iIiRjWKW4SG8UoFNjUTTjI4lFRC5iNisKTfBBKSzTxUml01zHW(rVk)cMKM(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(rVk)krstF068EDKeTsyWHxGVHhgggggggoozkSF0RYVsK00hToVxhPOtlPuaEb((ejEyyy48QqgpmmmmmmmmEyyyyyyy4(myzc51mfUSjBuvvvaVSalnuutHcPWuIMONNQu4ZqhwiVMPWLTDJQQQc4Lf4PJop60skLjLE9CL1KQa(m0HfYRzkCzXUTrvvvb8YcS0W(rVk)cMKM(O1596qQcy(EEGhgggggggggggoozkSF0RYVsK00hToVxhPOtlPuaEbMFrNLfNmf2p6v5xjsA6JwN3RJu0PLukOaEzbwk)CV1Su4ZqhoozkSF0RYVsK00hToVxhPOtlPuaUQbFFIepmmmmmmmmmmmCCYuy)OxLFLiPPpADEVosrNwsPaXjKxZu4YABJQQQI7cVaZ1iKXddddddddddddhNmf2p6v5xjsA6JwN3RJKOvcdo8cCCYuy)OxLFLiPPpADEVosIwjm4W3jCm8WWWWWWWW5HoEyyyyyyyy8WWWWWWWW9zWYeYRzkCzt2OQQQaEzbwAOOMcfsIsgKKctfv0Mqqk8zOdlKxZu4YkEJQQQc4LfyPH9JEv(fmjn9rRZ71HufW898apmmmmmmmmmmmmEyyyyyyyyyyy44KPW(rVk)krstF068EDKIoTKsb4fy(fDwwCYuy)OxLFLiPPpADEVosrNwsPGc4LfyP8Z9wZsHpdD44KPW(rVk)krstF068EDKIoTKsb4Qg89jsyyyy8WWWWWWWWWWWW4HHHHHHHHHHHH7ZGLfNmf2p6v5xjsA6JwN3RJu0PLukqCc51mfUSTBuvvvCxyChwGh9vfW898apmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmCCYuy)OxLFLiPPpADEVosrNwsPaXjKxZu4Y2UrvvvXDHxGh9v8WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWXjtH9JEv(vIKM(O1596ijALWGdVahNmf2p6v5xjsA6JwN3RJKOvcdoC7WXWddddddddddddNh64HHHHHHHHHHHHXddddddddNh64HHHHHHHHXddddNh64HHHHXddddRL5e0gWCncz8WWWW4ZdD84XJhpE84XJhpE84XJhpE84XJhpE84XJhpE84XJhpE84XJhpE84XJhpE84XJhpE84XJhpE84zHmrLhCbwq05j65iLKkmF0udXVHQK0uQIRubjnTAuUbUOcKeRPvQvt0gQPgQKZvOr5g4IkqsSMwPwnrBOMuwkqoxHgLBGlQajXAALAOkPPvjQrtXNVvbLSafcc8QyP9UEMfOqqGxfJXzCwqGfIPwwve1y3ybIIrnw5B3yCgda

And LUA.

{
    ["outline"] = true,
    ["fontSize"] = 23,
    ["color"] = {
        [1] = 0,
        [2] = 0.62745098039216,
        [3] = 1,
        [4] = 1,
    },
    ["displayText"] = "%n",
    ["yOffset"] = -475.99083709717,
    ["anchorPoint"] = "CENTER",
    ["customTextUpdate"] = "update",
    ["actions"] = {
        ["start"] = {
        },
        ["finish"] = {
        },
    },
    ["regionType"] = "text",
    ["justify"] = "LEFT",
    ["selfPoint"] = "BOTTOM",
    ["additional_triggers"] = {
    },
    ["trigger"] = {
        ["type"] = "custom",
        ["custom_type"] = "event",
        ["event"] = "Health",
        ["unit"] = "player",
        ["custom_hide"] = "custom",
        ["customName"] = "function()\n    return WA_Shadowy_Apparition_Count\nend\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n",
        ["custom"] = "function(...)\n    \n    if (select(1,...) == \"PLAYER_REGEN_ENABLED\" or select(1,...) == \"PLAYER_REGEN_DISABLED\" or select(1,...) == \"PLAYER_ENTERING_WORLD\") then\n        WA_Shadowy_Apparition_Count = 0\n        WA_Shadowy_Apparition_GUIDs = {}\n    else\n        \n        if (select(3,...) == \"SPELL_SUMMON\" and select(5,...) == UnitGUID(\"player\") and select(10,...) == \"Shadowy Apparition\") then\n            WA_Shadowy_Apparition_GUIDs = type(WA_Shadowy_Apparition_GUIDs) == \"table\" and WA_Shadowy_Apparition_GUIDs or {}\n            WA_Shadowy_Apparition_GUIDs[select(9,...)] = true\n            WA_Shadowy_Apparition_Count = WA_Shadowy_Apparition_Count + 1\n        end\n        \n        if (select(3,...) == \"SPELL_CAST_SUCCESS\" and select(6,...) == \"Shadowy Apparition\") then\n            \n            WA_Shadowy_Apparition_GUIDs = type(WA_Shadowy_Apparition_GUIDs) == \"table\" and WA_Shadowy_Apparition_GUIDs or {}    \n            \n            if (WA_Shadowy_Apparition_GUIDs[select(5,...)] ~= nil) then\n                WA_Shadowy_Apparition_GUIDs[select(5,...)] = nil\n                WA_Shadowy_Apparition_Count = WA_Shadowy_Apparition_Count - 1\n            end\n            \n        end\n        \n    end\n    \n    return true\n    \nend\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n",
        ["events"] = "COMBAT_LOG_EVENT_UNFILTERED, PLAYER_REGEN_ENABLED, PLAYER_REGEN_DISABLED, PLAYER_ENTERING_WORLD",
        ["subeventSuffix"] = "_CAST_START",
        ["subeventPrefix"] = "SPELL",
        ["names"] = {
        },
        ["debuffType"] = "HELPFUL",
    },
    ["frameStrata"] = 1,
    ["width"] = 339.83294677734,
    ["animation"] = {
        ["start"] = {
            ["type"] = "none",
            ["duration_type"] = "seconds",
        },
        ["main"] = {
            ["type"] = "none",
            ["duration_type"] = "seconds",
        },
        ["finish"] = {
            ["type"] = "none",
            ["duration_type"] = "seconds",
        },
    },
    ["font"] = "Friz Quadrata TT",
    ["numTriggers"] = 1,
    ["xOffset"] = 1.1240234375,
    ["height"] = 22.5055103302,
    ["id"] = "Shadowy Apparition - Counter",
    ["load"] = {
        ["use_class"] = true,
        ["role"] = {
            ["multi"] = {
            },
        },
        ["size"] = {
            ["multi"] = {
            },
        },
        ["spec"] = {
            ["single"] = 3,
            ["multi"] = {
                [3] = true,
            },
        },
        ["class"] = {
            ["single"] = "PRIEST",
            ["multi"] = {
            },
        },
        ["use_talent"] = false,
    },
    ["untrigger"] = {
    },
}

[Mctriple]

no, the burden lies on the person (you) claiming something contrary to all theorycraft

Please link me all the theorycraft supporting ditching the 4pc. What I mean is, show me the math. I haven't been able to find it. Theorycraft is not just "well apparitions are probably being wasted in a queue so 4pc sucks." That's nothing more than simple speculation. Speculations are good, and it's based on solid understanding of how shadow works, but it's very far from a thorough look into how well the 4p actually works.

I've previously linked logs for Horridon, Megaera, and Council as well. That's already 1/3 of the tier. I've hardly only posted my Ra-den logs in support. And guess what? Ra-den is NOT nearly the strongest in favor of the 4pc. It's good, but there's not nearly enough multi-dotting. The only add you multi-dot is the crackling stalker, and they die very quickly. If you're multi-dotting essence of anima or corrupted anima with VT and SWP, you're doing it very wrong.

Nope stuff sucks. There's a reason zero respectable shadow priests use 4pc. It's garbage and gets out scaled. Same thing might happen with t16 4 pc.

I don't see why you think you're so above peer review. You know what that is, right? That thing people have used for hundreds of years when sharing their work. It's really a disappointingly arrogant attitude to be so above peer review. The only reasonable explanations are that you either haven't actually done any math or are afraid that your math is flawed and would be embarrassed to have anybody look at it. There's no shame in that - we're all working together towards better information, and I'm sure countless people would be more than happy to help you put some math behind your ideas! Again, you obviously have a very good understanding of the mechanics of shadow. If you need help with the numbers that's not a bad thing.

You get so extremely offensive the second somebody starts questioning you and wanting to actually look at the numbers. It's pretty sad, really. I hope you have something else going on in your life other than being Drye the Unquestionable in WoW, lol.

Speaking of looking at numbers.. you said no respectable shadow priests use 4pc. I find it very interesting that on just about every fight you can find spriests using the 4pc ranking higher than you (myself included, despite the fact that I'm 5 ilvls below you). There are some very strong spriests using the 4pc. Can you seriously not even look at world of logs for 5 minutes before spouting things that are so blatantly incorrect??

And fyi I don't have neither BoH or ULVS.

This is why misinformation is so bad to other shadow priests that don't understand as much as you do, Drye :\

Anyway, I'm bored of this lack of intelligent discussion. Enjoy the circle jerk of misinformation.