LFR -> Flex -> Normal -> Heroic: Why?

[Deleted]

And if you want to grind easy content forever, you can also go play Dora the Explorer Adventure Island (dont try the heroic mode questions, they are pretty hard).

Never talked about what I wanted. I talked about what the general playerbase of wow wants, based on the evidence of the last decade.

Once again, you are ignoring the fact that most people hate levelling (changes were even made to that extent).

No. Most people LOVE levelling. Most hardcore raiders hate levelling and want to have alts for their raids, which is why it was changed after much forum bitching.

it's an RPG, the core of the game is levelling/powering up. At it's peak, wow had 12 millions subs. Most of those subs never had a max level toon.

If levelling is your thing, then by all means do it, you have loads of char slots and servers. But don't then come and tell the player base that content you dont play needs to be removed so you can have another levelling zone ...

Again, not talking about me at all. I like raiding, quite like hittingmax level asap. However, the data says that most players want to grind away looking at pretty things while capturing 13 badger earlobes for questy mcnab, the NPC.

[La]

Probably the same reason most video games have 4 difficulty settings.

Appealing to many is much smarter from a business point of view than appealing to the needs of a few.

[Deleted]

Nope, they are incredibly overtuned. That's why we are getting flexi mode.

You got flexi mode because a fringe of the population is too bad to play normals, even after 3x nerds and 4 months of valor upgrades (c;on thats like +60% buff versus first weeks...)


And since you are so hellbent on believing things blues / GC says, i dug the orginal blue quote, delivering the intent :

Raids in World of Warcraft have a long history of not just challenging players, but changing and evolving as the years and expansions go by. As with everything in the game, we’re always thinking about what more we can bring to raiding to improve the experience for an even wider range of players. While Normal and Heroic Raids are a great fit for many, we feel there’s another gap worth filling—and to that end, we’re currently working on the development of a new type of Raid for the next major content update: Flexible Raiding.

SO : it's not because normals are too hard. Its because theres a fringe of the pop that feels excluded and wants to also throw stones at a boss.

[vickvinegar]

How about if your raid leader tells you:

"Do not run Flex or LFR."

Would that stop you?

A guild leader that tells you NOT to upgrade your gear to better the raid, wow posts on these forums keep blowing my mind.

[Deleted]

How is that a fact? I don't dispute that "some" hate it..but "most"? That begs the question how you know?

When people hate something (like this crowd hates normal) and expresses it, blizzard changes stuff to acomodate this ( for example, nerfing normals to the ground)
Did you miss the 30% buff to xp, the changes in valour and rep destined for alts ? They were implemented because people complained about the levelling process, and were not accessing end game on multiple chars.

[Deleted]

You got flexi mode because a fringe of the population is too bad to play normals, even after 3x nerds and 4 months of valor upgrades (c;on thats like +60% buff versus first weeks...)

If by fringe you mean "almost everyone" then yeah, sure.

And since you are so hellbent on believing things blues / GC says, i dug the orginal blue quote, delivering the intent :

Raids in World of Warcraft have a long history of not just challenging players, but changing and evolving as the years and expansions go by. As with everything in the game, we’re always thinking about what more we can bring to raiding to improve the experience for an even wider range of players. While Normal and Heroic Raids are a great fit for many, we feel there’s another gap worth filling—and to that end, we’re currently working on the development of a new type of Raid for the next major content update: Flexible Raiding.

SO : it's not because normals are too hard. Its because theres a fringe of the pop that feels excluded and wants to also throw stones at a boss.

Erm, people who used to be able to raid and now can't because normals are too hard are the reason for flexi. That is, normals are too hard.

[Devilyaki]

They don't make the game for the top raiders, they have content for them but the game doesn't and will never revolve around them.

[Deleted]

No. Most people LOVE levelling. Most hardcore raiders hate levelling and want to have alts for their raids, which is why it was changed after much forum bitching.

So wait, you are now saying that the changes to levelling were intended for the top end heroic hardcore raiders ? Those 3k people (lol) you ;entioned earlier ?
So are you saying they are more vocal, and blizzard fucked up changing levelling, or agreeing that they're the ones bringing the money in nd that blizzard caved to them? Because that would nullify your "raids will not be designed if only the 3% plays them"

[Deleted]

So wait, you are now saying that the changes to levelling were intended for the top end heroic hardcore raiders ? Those 3k people (lol) you ;entioned earlier ?
So are you saying they are more vocal, and blizzard fucked up changing levelling, or agreeing that they're the ones bringing the money in nd that blizzard caved to them? Because that would nullify your "raids will not be designed if only the 3% plays them"

Yep, pretty much.

For some reaosn blizzard have done absolutely everything possible to keep hardcore raiding going, in the face of an obviously indifferent playerbase.

[Deleted]

If by fringe you mean "almost everyone" then yeah, sure.

Almost everyone doesnt wanna raid though (according to your statements, they prefer levelling toons sooo...)
Hell, I could even bet that 30% the wow pop doesnt even know about raids. I sure didnt when i was levelling in nagrand. I reached max level, and realised raiding was the most fun part of the game

- - - Updated - - -

Erm, people who used to be able to raid and now can't because normals are too hard are the reason for flexi. That is, normals are too hard.

And again, blizzard made LFR for them. Spoilt brats now want more ... lets see what happens when you raid Flex and tell me its too hard in 6 months

[AlisonPrime]

Originally you had to learn your shit by doing Raids and that was it, and if you were bad most 40 man guilds would give you the boot and you were done until you found another raid to take you along. There was no Normal man to learn the ropes, it was you were good, or you were out. Even 20 man raids were tuned pretty tight at the final bosses.

BC introduced the 10 and 25 man model we have today but no swapping between the two sizes. You had Kara and ZG which were 10 man and the rest were 25. You learned your roles and such in the 10 man Kara where the fights got progressively harder and harder as you went up the tower, but after all was said and done you were ready to proceed into Mag and Gruul.

WOTLK introduced the 10 and 25 seperate lockouts and soon Heroic difficulty for the two, however since 25 offered more mechanics and higher item level loot as well, it was considered to be the REAL raiding. You learned the fights basically in the 10 man version and geared up there and it was very pug friendly as well. 25 normal wasn't tuned so tight that it was impossible to pug, but later fights were NOT pug friendly at all. You still learned as you went and eventually you got into a guild for heroic modes.

Cata introduced the shared lockout. 10 and 25 shared a lockout between normal and heroic and you could only do heroic of 1 of those two. You could start the week on 25 heroic but soon some people get fed up and dont show up on non farm night and you can clear out on 10 man normal. This time there was not a "learn as you go" as everything was tuned super super super tight. eventually nerfs came and the stuff became more pug friendly. Then LFR for DS came out and that was so easy you never learned anything. Mechanics were nerfed so bad or taken out completely it was a joke. No one learned as they went along and as a result, they were not ready for 10 man until the rolling nerf came out.

MoP kept the LFR Normal and Heroic type setting but as it stands, LFR doesn't teach you ANYTHING about the fight on normal aside from some mechanics aka the beam on Durumu will kill you, however I cant count the number of people we recruited who got thrown into the water cause they said "Well on LFR the Force of Will only knocks you down" or revealed the blue add on the fight. Also need I mention Animus trash LFR vs Normal?. Flex raiding is supposed to keep ALL mechanics in check and be pug friendly which im hoping cause as it stands now, there is no learn as you go type encounters vs LFR and raiders are not prepared for joining guilds so recruitment has gotten lax and people are taking bad players.

[Bad Ashe]

its really past the time they should have just re-evaluated the need for raid environments period. every other aspect of the game is not MMO anymore, its MMM (Me-Me-Me) so why do they continue to do lfr, and now flex, and w/e else they are dreaming up atm behind the scenes?

the gear rewards arent worth the commitment anymore which is why there are so many fewer competitive guilds, and the acidic and hateful nature of the environment that blizz nurtures and even compels you toward are why they had to bring in flex at all, because lfr killed normal/casual guilds and when you look at it in that perspective flex is just a giant hello-kitty bandaid on the entire raid oriented situation.

they need to get back to the spirit of actual mMULTIPLAYERo and what it means. no i'm not saying get rid of random dungeons/raids, but i AM saying there needs to be some interaction/consequense to using it. even something as simple as ACTUALLY GOING TO THE DUNGEON/RAID/BATTLEGROUND YOU WANT TO QUE FOR.

the instantaneous push a button get a reward system isnt helping anything, its just making more LFtrolls. and they will continue to just push their 1 button and require you to carry them on your back to get their reward because the system is so dumbed down its that easy and there's no consequence to them doing so.

dammit, im ranting again. sorry

[Deleted]

Almost everyone doesnt wanna raid though (according to your statements, they prefer levelling toons sooo...)
Hell, I could even bet that 30% the wow pop doesnt even know about raids. I sure didnt when i was levelling in nagrand. I reached max level, and realised raiding was the most fun part of the game

Exactly. Blizzard wants wow to be a game all about raiding. But theres a problem - raids are hellishly difficult for most players, even the normal mode is beyond the vast bulk of the playerbase. Flexi is the solution to that problem.

And again, blizzard made LFR for them. Spoilt brats now want more ... lets see what happens when you raid Flex and tell me its too hard in 6 months

LFR was made for the people who got shoved out of organised raiding. However, LFR isn't organised raiding, or raiding with friends. It's raiding with friends + 15 fuckwits who ninja pull, talk shit or who are afk. Maybe they should rename it molten core mode....

[Glorious Leader]

Almost everyone doesnt wanna raid though (according to your statements, they prefer levelling toons sooo...)
Hell, I could even bet that 30% the wow pop doesnt even know about raids. I sure didnt when i was levelling in nagrand. I reached max level, and realised raiding was the most fun part of the game

- - - Updated - - -




And again, blizzard made LFR for them. Spoilt brats now want more ... lets see what happens when you raid Flex and tell me its too hard in 6 months

That is an incorrect reading of the creation of lfr and it's roll. It's colored by your obvious disdain for the large majority of the player base but if you cared to do any research you'd soon come to understand that the creation of lfr isn't so much about giving people things as it is about making raiding far more effecient in terms of entertaining blizzards audience than it did in the past. Now Blizzards audience is pretty big so if they add in another mode to cater to another subset of that audience (i.e flex) then they simple get more effeciency out of that already created raid content. It's a purely cynical economic calculation on their part and it came out of cataclysm when people (given an equal opportunity for advancement with other content) WERE skipping raid content.

I'm all for the removal of flex and lfr btw but then I'm also for raiding becoming VERY NICHE and not all that important. Like so not important you maybe get 3 raid bosses a year. I'd far prefer that to these bloated massive raid tiers every 6 monnths...

- - - Updated - - -

Exactly. Blizzard wants wow to be a game all about raiding. But theres a problem - raids are hellishly difficult for most players, even the normal mode is beyond the vast bulk of the playerbase. Flexi is the solution to that problem.

It's also not clear to me that the developers chosen form of content has any wide or broad appeal REGARDLESS of how they shove people into it with lfr or even with the more social flexi aspect. I think dungeons had far broader appeal but even if not i'm not sure subjecting the large mass of the player base to raiding will work out like they hoped. The enjoyment of raiding in any form is not a universal thing. It's very niche no matter how they try and dress it up.

[aljung]

If find lfr ruins the adventuring and exploring aspect of raiding.

[Nobleshield]

If find lfr ruins the adventuring and exploring aspect of raiding.

What, pray tell, is the "adventuring and exploring aspect of raiding"? Questing I can see exploration and adventure, but a raid? What is really exploration? A corridor or two filled with enemies with a boss at the end? There aren't even very many raid quests anymore for the "adventure" aspect, hell most raids exist only for the loot and have some base lore surrounding why we might want go to there (e.g. ToT to prevent Lei Shen and the Zandalari from conquering Pandaria, HoF to kill the Empress, Terrace to defeat the Sha of Fear)

[Glorious Leader]

What, pray tell, is the "adventuring and exploring aspect of raiding"? Questing I can see exploration and adventure, but a raid? What is really exploration? A corridor or two filled with enemies with a boss at the end? There aren't even very many raid quests anymore for the "adventure" aspect, hell most raids exist only for the loot and have some base lore surrounding why we might want go to there (e.g. ToT to prevent Lei Shen and the Zandalari from conquering Pandaria, HoF to kill the Empress, Terrace to defeat the Sha of Fear)

Watching a youtube video explaining it all or having umpteenth number of mods scream at you to move. Exploration is DEAD period. How can you explore when everything is available to you at the click of a video?

[Nobleshield]

Watching a youtube video explaining it all or having umpteenth number of mods scream at you to move. Exploration is DEAD period. How can you explore when everything is available to you at the click of a video?

Perhaps, but I was legitimately curious what he meant about adventure and exploration in regards to raiding. I mean I've heard those terms thrown around in questing and dungeons (as in the lore and quests behind why you are going to that dungeon beyond phat lewtz) but never in the context of a raid.

[Darmalus]

Perhaps, but I was legitimately curious what he meant about adventure and exploration in regards to raiding. I mean I've heard those terms thrown around in questing and dungeons (as in the lore and quests behind why you are going to that dungeon beyond phat lewtz) but never in the context of a raid.

It's funny, I have far MORE "adventure and exploration" in raids being an LFR hero than I ever did when I raided pre-LFR. Back then, I had to watch videos and know the entire fight, by heart, before I entered the instance for the very first time. As an LFR Hero, the first time I fight the boss is the first time I have seen the boss! Unless they showed up in a trailer, every boss is a surprise. I only know about Garrosh and Nazgrim, so I think that means I have 12 surprises coming my way. Can't wait!

[artem123]

In 5.0? seriously? And did HM guilds need LFM items once they had their HMs down? For whatever it is worth, when I armoried the Method GM he had ZERO LFM. But anyway, that is beyond the point. If people think LFR is mandatory, so be it. If it spoils your fun because your guild "forces" you, I'd say you have a funny idea about how to spend money on a hobby. But to each his own.

They didnt 'need' them. And you armoried ONE PERSON out of a roster of im assuming 30+ people.
And shrug, guild didnt force me. But depending on the trinkets and whatnot its pretty helpful.