Guardian Alpha Patchnotes

[-Doko-]

If warriors don't get a massive nerf to their armor it won't be important what any other class stacks because we'll all be playing one, its really that dumb right now in beta.

Mastery -> dodge smoothing, if you looked at physical damage taken in a graph all mastery will do is bring every other peak down by your % mastery. It won't help you survive that massive single strike unless you get lucky or if the total damage of 1 auto attack + massive strike is the real danger, not the massive strike itself.
Versatility -> lower peaks / all types of damage / unsure on healing scaling when compared to extra AP from mastery.

Except for some fights with massive amounts of elemental damage Mastery should destroy versatility. We simply dont have the rage to be using FR all that much, cutting even more into the budget quota for it. if versatility was healing taken.... well that's another story... one I would very much like to see considering it would make ursa major feel less shitty.

[Rioo]

I think I asked this before the beta and no one really knew, but the HP we gain from Ursa Major isn't lost when it runs out right? I don't understand the hate for it otherwise.

For example: We have 100k HP and proc UM buffing us to 105k HP. We take 5k damage and go down to 100/105k HP. Then we lose the buff. Do we stay at 100/100k or do we lose the 5k going down to 95/100k?

[Dreyen]

Ursa major is a buff to your max hp, it never goes away until the buff expires, so you stay at 105k max hp until the buff runs out or until you refresh it, giving you even higher max hp.

It's literally just a fancy stamina proc.

[exochaft]

I think I asked this before the beta and no one really knew, but the HP we gain from Ursa Major isn't lost when it runs out right? I don't understand the hate for it otherwise.

For example: We have 100k HP and proc UM buffing us to 105k HP. We take 5k damage and go down to 100/105k HP. Then we lose the buff. Do we stay at 100/100k or do we lose the 5k going down to 95/100k?

It maintains your current health percentage when Ursa Major (UM) drops. For your example, if you're at 100k/105k HP and you lose your UM buff, you'll drop to 95.2k/100k HP. Works in a similar fashion when your HP changes, whether it's up or down, with the initial UM proc or refresh.

The only thing that irks me about UM is the refreshing mechanic which can make your max HP go up and down depending upon the current duration upon refresh. If we're actually relying on the max HP it provides (which can be very debatable since it's relying on a proc for EH), low to medium levels of multistrike can be rather frustrating as refreshing UM can feel like a penalty. Also, if we end up with procs providing multistrike, whether they're trinkets or a zone buff, it's rather annoying to lose a massive HP stack because your next UM proc was really late. Simply stated, I believe we'd need high levels of multistrike to make the health gains a reliable source of EH with how UM is designed.

[Dreyen]

It maintains your current health percentage when Ursa Major (UM) drops. For your example, if you're at 100k/105k HP and you lose your UM buff, you'll drop to 95.2k/100k HP. Works in a similar fashion when your HP changes, whether it's up or down, with the initial UM proc or refresh.

The only thing that irks me about UM is the refreshing mechanic which can make your max HP go up and down depending upon the current duration upon refresh. If we're actually relying on the max HP it provides (which can be very debatable since it's relying on a proc for EH), low to medium levels of multistrike can be rather frustrating as refreshing UM can feel like a penalty. Also, if we end up with procs providing multistrike, whether they're trinkets or a zone buff, it's rather annoying to lose a massive HP stack because your next UM proc was really late. Simply stated, I believe we'd need high levels of multistrike to make the health gains a reliable source of EH with how UM is designed.

On beta testing it seemed like i reached 15-20% bonus hp, with simply haromm's trinket and the multistrike weapon enchant.

[Arielle]

Yes, I'm annoyed and I'm ranting. I don't want a perfectly fine secondary stat ruined because you got the wrong idea and ran with it, because people will listen to you. If you want crit and haste to be competitive, focus on getting them buffed and not getting versatility nerfed. If you want double-dipping to go away, stop ignoring 3/4 stats that feature it prominently in favor of attacking the fourth.

I guess the point is it's too good for being completely passive, which is true. I've never been shy about saying that every stat is basically Versatility for us, so another one which is effectively the same is kinda "meh". My only real dog in this race is that Versatility is too good relative to Haste and Crit. It's up to Blizzard to decide what they want to do about that.

Braindwn and Arielle, just curious what our current best two stats will be for gear that can and can't have bonus armor. The first case seems to be bonus armor+? and the second case I've heard is versatility+mastery.

For pure TDR: Mastery > Versa >>>>>>>>>>>>> Haste > Crit > MS. I'm actually running a bunch of sims today for DTPS/TMI with different talent profiles and trying to build a better APL and find any remaining bugs in SimC.

[exochaft]

On beta testing it seemed like i reached 15-20% bonus hp, with simply haromm's trinket and the multistrike weapon enchant.

When I say "high levels," I technically mean enough multistrike to sustain a certain value of Ursa Major... and in the case of EH, a large enough stack to actually matter. Going into the first week(s) of progression, we might not have enough multistrike to rely upon it (amplified by wanting different stats). Getting a stable 15-20% HP bonus would likely take about 30% of the secondary stats budget going into the first weeks of progression, procs aside. Once we reach 680 ilvl, assuming those numbers were during the Mythic testing, getting enough stats for said HP increase shouldn't be too hard even as a side effect of stacking 1-2 other stats. The trick is getting to that gear level.

I suppose the more important question would be if the HP gains would worth it versus stacking another stat initially. Since I'm 99% sure FR doesn't scale with Ursa Major, I'd say almost any other stat would be beneficial to stack beyond massive burst where our cooldowns can't save us. I think later tiers in WoD will make even passively accumulating multistrike yield tangible benefits from the HP gains possible, however the first tier likely won't allow multistrike to be a reliable stat.

[Braindwen]

Getting a stable 15-20% HP bonus would likely take about 30% of the secondary stats budget going into the first weeks of progression, procs aside.

I suppose the more important question would be if the HP gains would worth it versus stacking another stat initially. Since I'm 99% sure FR doesn't scale with Ursa Major, I'd say almost any other stat would be beneficial to stack beyond massive burst where our cooldowns can't save us. I think later tiers in WoD will make even passively accumulating multistrike yield tangible benefits from the HP gains possible, however the first tier likely won't allow multistrike to be a reliable stat.

My 660 druid has multistrike on bracers, shoulders, belt, pants, and boots, 538 rating total. That amount gives about a 26% boost to health on average, bouncing between 18% and 34% over about 5 minutes of bashing on a dummy. Considering just enchants can provide 200 MS, and a 630 trinket is 159 more, a 20% health boost from multistrike should be achievable at any raid-worthy gear level if we care to get it.

As for its value as a stat, the only thing we can really compare it with is stamina. For my 660, napkin math says it and stamina are near-equal 1:1 for average health gained (~140 for stam vs. ~145 for MS), so a stam trinket should still be worth more health than an MS trinket. MS's health is more variable and has an obnoxiously long ramp-up time, but unlike stamina it provides offensive benefit and doesn't hurt resolve. Unless you really, really need health, MS is the health stat of choice.

Health is always hard to compare against other stats. Still, it's never really "useless", and it scales so darn well compared to the other stats (e.g. .5% DR from versatility equaling 4% Ursa Major). There'll always be that group of people that mock you for stamina-stacking, but at the very least, taking MS over mastery or versatility be a lot more justifiable than, say, taking current crit or haste over mastery or versatility.

[Totaltotemic]

My 660 druid has multistrike on bracers, shoulders, belt, pants, and boots, 538 rating total. That amount gives about a 26% boost to health on average, bouncing between 18% and 34% over about 5 minutes of bashing on a dummy. Considering just enchants can provide 200 MS, and a 630 trinket is 159 more, a 20% health boost from multistrike should be achievable at any raid-worthy gear level if we care to get it.

As for its value as a stat, the only thing we can really compare it with is stamina. For my 660, napkin math says it and stamina are near-equal 1:1 for average health gained (~140 for stam vs. ~145 for MS), so a stam trinket should still be worth more health than an MS trinket. MS's health is more variable and has an obnoxiously long ramp-up time, but unlike stamina it provides offensive benefit and doesn't hurt resolve. Unless you really, really need health, MS is the health stat of choice.

Health is always hard to compare against other stats. Still, it's never really "useless", and it scales so darn well compared to the other stats (e.g. .5% DR from versatility equaling 4% Ursa Major). There'll always be that group of people that mock you for stamina-stacking, but at the very least, taking MS over mastery or versatility be a lot more justifiable than, say, taking current crit or haste over mastery or versatility.

The big difference is that you get base Resolve from Stamina, but not Multistrike. While I think FR can multistrike, TC definitely does not but it does scale with Resolve.

[Braindwen]

The big difference is that you get base Resolve from Stamina, but not Multistrike. While I think FR can multistrike, TC definitely does not but it does scale with Resolve.

Stamina nerfs resolve. The pittance you get to base resolve does not make up for the increased max health lowering the resolve you get from taking damage. That is, unless your opponent is smacking you with a fluffy pillow, or something. Ursa Major's health does not count against resolve, so it's better against anything threatening in that regard.

Neither FR nor T&C can multistrike. Both are boosted by resolve.

[Arielle]

Health is always hard to compare against other stats. Still, it's never really "useless", and it scales so darn well compared to the other stats (e.g. .5% DR from versatility equaling 4% Ursa Major). There'll always be that group of people that mock you for stamina-stacking, but at the very least, taking MS over mastery or versatility be a lot more justifiable than, say, taking current crit or haste over mastery or versatility.

It really all depends on what you and your healers care about. EH is better at lowering TMI (a.k.a. "spikiness"), but not so good at lowering DTPS. Other stats like Mastery and Bonus Armor (which is still EH but you get the point) are really good at both. Pure DTPS stats like Haste and Crit are terrible at lowering TMI (and also currently really bad at DTPS).

So even more so than Mists (where you could usually make up lack of EH with good play) you'll need to be talking to your healers to find out what makes them feel the most comfortable.

[Totaltotemic]

Ursa Major's health does not count against resolve, so it's better against anything threatening in that regard.

Source? The Resolve formula specifically says MaxHealth and I can't find anything that says that Ursa Major does not count.

[Valkon]

Source? The Resolve formula specifically says MaxHealth and I can't find anything that says that Ursa Major does not count.

From Celestalon: "MaxHealth does not include increased max health from temporary multipliers like Last Stand, or Ursa Major."

[Braindwen]

Yeah... 5 bullets down from where he gives the formula.

Also testing it in the beta shows that pretty clearly, though it was bugged for quite a while and included UM, MoU, etc.

[Valkon]

Haven't gotten a beta invite yet. Does anyone know if mastery works with sonic damage or bleeds?

[Totaltotemic]

Oh I must have forgotten that part about Ursa Major, I knew it included Last Stand and Might of Ursoc but I thought Ursa Major was different because it's more or less permanent. My bad.


That said, I also went and hit a dummy for about 10 minutes in premade 660 gear. Fully buffed I had 10.44% MS and 11.79% haste (important because haste creates more multistrike events by way of having more base events) and it seemed to hover around 20% max health, but I can see some value in this idea. With tanks apparently being completely separate from the philosophy of having a higher time to kill that everyone else gets to partake in, we're still seeing tanks only have an EH of about 3 hits (seriously why does the Raid dummy swing for 150k+? I've seen similar things in the testing I've been able to watch) and single target healing is insanely strong compared to raid healing, so a tank taking even 50% more DPS wouldn't exactly be an issue for healing.

I guess I can see a world where Guardians have a special niche of having 50% more health than any other tank but taking a bit more damage overall, but I'm not sure that the passive damage reduction is there to survive long enough to build up UM compared to other tanks.

[-Doko-]

Oh I must have forgotten that part about Ursa Major, I knew it included Last Stand and Might of Ursoc but I thought Ursa Major was different because it's more or less permanent. My bad.


That said, I also went and hit a dummy for about 10 minutes in premade 660 gear. Fully buffed I had 10.44% MS and 11.79% haste (important because haste creates more multistrike events by way of having more base events) and it seemed to hover around 20% max health, but I can see some value in this idea. With tanks apparently being completely separate from the philosophy of having a higher time to kill that everyone else gets to partake in, we're still seeing tanks only have an EH of about 3 hits (seriously why does the Raid dummy swing for 150k+? I've seen similar things in the testing I've been able to watch) and single target healing is insanely strong compared to raid healing, so a tank taking even 50% more DPS wouldn't exactly be an issue for healing.

I guess I can see a world where Guardians have a special niche of having 50% more health than any other tank but taking a bit more damage overall, but I'm not sure that the passive damage reduction is there to survive long enough to build up UM compared to other tanks.

Raid dummy hits for that much.. because thats how much you'll be hit for normally in a real raid. Pretty sure you are meant to go there with a couple of healers if you really want to test.
Mythic Oregorger was hitting me 300k with a 700k-750k hp healthpool depending on ursa major rng (No pulverize, bristle fur is somewhat decent for this fight because of mechanics).

The main issue with our new, high health, average mitigation model is really if the raid can afford to drop a healer if needed without us dying because there is simply not enough hps directed at us. It doesn't feel like we are on heroic lich king style damage where EHP is king and everything else can burn.

[Totaltotemic]

Raid dummy hits for that much.. because thats how much you'll be hit for normally in a real raid. Pretty sure you are meant to go there with a couple of healers if you really want to test.
Mythic Oregorger was hitting me 300k with a 700k-750k hp healthpool depending on ursa major rng (No pulverize, bristle fur is somewhat decent for this fight because of mechanics).

The main issue with our new, high health, average mitigation model is really if the raid can afford to drop a healer if needed without us dying because there is simply not enough hps directed at us. It doesn't feel like we are on heroic lich king style damage where EHP is king and everything else can burn.

No I know, I actually did a majority of my testing on the raid dummy with someone healing me when I was trying out each class's mechanics. That's really kind of the problem though, in MoP tanks would die in 3 hits but with a ridiculous amount of self-healing that actually turned into 6 or 7 hits plus smart heals flying around and little more than HoTs was necessary to keep a tank up. Now you pretty much need a dedicated healer, but a 2.5 second cast time doesn't exactly do much when the tank dies in 4 seconds.

The biggest problem right now though is that Guardians don't even have average mitigation, they have lower armor than all 3 plate tanks and can't parry or block either, you need to have Pulverize up to even be average. If Guardians could be in a place where it takes 5 hits to die instead of 3, then that EH might be worth it. It's just hard to justify when you could just bring even a BrM and take hits for 30% less and have parry on top of the same level of dodge. Being the high EH tank doesn't really work when you don't actually have high EH, just high health and take a ton more damage.

[Trubo]

For pure TDR: Mastery > Versa >>>>>>>>>>>>> Haste > Crit > MS. I'm actually running a bunch of sims today for DTPS/TMI with different talent profiles and trying to build a better APL and find any remaining bugs in SimC.

So no info on Bonus Armor due to lacking Agility gear with Bonus Armor?

[Promdates]

So no info on Bonus Armor due to lacking Agility gear with Bonus Armor?

I'm not sure what you're referring to. Any item with Bonus Armor on it will have either Strength or Agility as a +Str/Agi stat. Having Bonus Armor on the item means it replaces another secondary stat on it.

http://wod.wowhead.com/items=4?filte...09;crs=1;crv=0