The Highlord's Return Tips

[Deleted]

Dude stop being so dense. The original tanking mechanics were, as you said, protecting the group and surviving but they also had the added mechanic of threat. Honestly threat was more of a DPS mechanic though anyway but it did give tanks something other than survival and positioning to worry about. When they made threat trivial in Wrath they added new mechanics to the tanking class that allowed them to do damage. In fact, my heroic (would be mythic now with the name change) raiding guild's best dps on Paragon of the Klaxxi was one of our tanks maximizing vengeance stacks to get insane amounts of damage that none of the damage dealers could hope to match. It was actually the best way to beat the fight: by making your tank do insane dps numbers. They removed one tanking mechanic for another.

Good tanks, nowadays, should care about optimizing their damage as well as positioning and surviving. If you only survive and position, well, then you're a mediocre tank.

And if you ever prioritize damage over doing your job as tank, you're even worse.

Do you measure healers based on the damage they deal as well? Do only bring the healers which manage to pull the most amount of damage?

Also, do you re-roll every patch to whichever class deals the most damage?

[Veraa]

And if you ever prioritize damage over doing your job as tank, you're even worse.

No one is saying this. Obviously you still prioritize survival, that doesn't mean you can't maximize your damage output at the same time. A good tank knows when he needs to swap it up, not just focus on one or the other.

It's been like this for so long and some tanks really need to break the mentality that they're only there to not die.

[cuafpr]

did a few tries last night and i'm so disappointed in this it felt so much more like a dps race than tanking, I'm old school i guess in that i'm ok with zero dps as tanks, really think we should be able to auto attack in this and be OK (outside of resource gen). We should be moving the boss in and out of bad, position so NPC DPS can not stand in bad, or stand in heals/buffs... pick up some adds. maybe an NPC tank for a tank swap or two. You know stuff we actually do on a boss fight. i'd be ok with add pack at the start or add phase but this is just sad if this is what they want tanking to be.

[Deleted]

No one is saying this. Obviously you still prioritize survival, that doesn't mean you can't maximize your damage output at the same time. A good tank knows when he needs to swap it up, not just focus on one or the other.

It's been like this for so long and some tanks really need to break the mentality that they're only there to not die.

Actually people are saying that, repeatedly.

We're not only there to not die, we're also there to protect the group and keep them from harms way. We are not there however to deal damage. You want damage? Bring a damage dealer.

[Matthias]

And if you ever prioritize damage over doing your job as tank, you're even worse.

Do you measure healers based on the damage they deal as well? Do only bring the healers which manage to pull the most amount of damage?

Also, do you re-roll every patch to whichever class deals the most damage?

Dude I'm almost convinced that your trolling at this point. Most tanks can sustain good DPS while keeping themselves alive, healers can't heal while dpsing. Active mitigation isn't freakin rocket science. When I'm doubling the other tanks damage the other tank is either undergeared or doing something wrong. Sure in a pug no one is going to kick a tank cause he's not doing leet deepz as long as he holds aggro and doesn't die, but your not playing your class at it's best either.

And the whole "My job is to keep my team alive!" Sadly tanking hasn't felt this way since TBC. Back then it was a constant push to gain and maintain aggro, if some pulled they could easily die, and your job was to stop that from happening, and if they did pull aggro you would have to quickly use your tool kit to regain aggro before they got one shot. I only get that feeling now on the Skittering Affix....where you need to optimize your damage to hold aggro. Most raid bosses were untauntable so if someone pulled aggro it could cause a wipe.

These days you feel like more of a wall that stands in front of everyone, you hit something twice and it remains glue'd to you.

[Volardelis]

The problem is, is that the challenge is a pure dps check, it has nothing to do with survival at all. If I wanted to push my limits on dps, i'll do the dps challenges.

While doing high damage is a core part of being a tank, it isn't a fundamental aspect to it, or at least according to blizzards 'class fantasy' BS they threw around when leading up to Legion.

We have npc's with us that we are forced to protect because of their low health pool, the problem is, they do nothing. Velen bugs up and either throws orbs like he has hero and the fast time on Chrono, or he never throws any orbs.

The tank scenario should focus more on tank mechanics, similar to the ones in the proving grounds instead of a straight dps / gear check.

- - - Updated - - -

That was the case maybe back in Wrath but ever since Cata killed threat they've shifted the extra skill to tank dps. If your tanks are good then they will do maximum dps while also taking no damage.


The mechanic of tank dps has replaced the mechanic of tank threat.

Doesn't mean blizzard should focus the whole aspect of the challenge on dps. Considering the npc's do nothing, so losing threat isn't an issue.

- - - Updated - - -

A tanks job is to provide as much dps as possible without dying

Isn't that the primary role of a dps though?

Provide as much dps as possible without dying

[Deleted]

Dude I'm almost convinced that your trolling at this point. Most tanks can sustain good DPS while keeping themselves alive, healers can't heal while dpsing. Active mitigation isn't freakin rocket science. When I'm doubling the other tanks damage the other tank is either undergeared or doing something wrong. Sure in a pug no one is going to kick a tank cause he's not doing leet deepz as long as he holds aggro and doesn't die, but your not playing your class at it's best either.

And the whole "My job is to keep my team alive!" Sadly tanking hasn't felt this way since TBC. Back then it was a constant push to gain and maintain aggro, if some pulled they could easily die, and your job was to stop that from happening, and if they did pull aggro you would have to quickly use your tool kit to regain aggro before they got one shot. I only get that feeling now on the Skittering Affix....where you need to optimize your damage to hold aggro. Most raid bosses were untauntable so if someone pulled aggro it could cause a wipe.

These days you feel like more of a wall that stands in front of everyone, you hit something twice and it remains glue'd to you.

I'm not trolling, just convinced that tanks are not meant to focus on dealing damage, ever. No one's said that active mitigation is difficult, that's just the basics of what a tank should have to handle.

That it hasn't felt like you've been able to protect your group since TBC is Blizzard's failure, and in raids I agree for the most part. Most boss mechanics are really lack-lustre. I think that's why I've had way more fun in mythic plus dungeons this expansion than in raids. At least there I can make full use of my tool kit.

The biggest reason I react as strongly as I do, is because I've been playing this game since Vanilla, and over the years the focus has been moving more and more towards one thing: Damage is the only thing that matters. It's the only thing DPS care about comparing to each other, warcraftlogs rankings only ranks damage, not how well you handle various mechanics, so someone slacking off not doing what they are supposed to do will rank higher than someone who does their job.

If damage is the only thing that matters, then I'm not even sure why I'm playing this game any more. Damage is the most boring, most basic thing, and at least in my mind, it has always been what you fall back to when you have nothing more important to do.

This challenge, which is intended for tanks, has the main focus of damage. You're not protecting anyone or anything, you're merely chasing down threats and trying to kill everything before you drown. That's a challenge intended for dps, not tanks.

This, is a tank to me:

[LittleLai]

The problem is, is that the challenge is a pure dps check, it has nothing to do with survival at all. If I wanted to push my limits on dps, i'll do the dps challenges.

While doing high damage is a core part of being a tank, it isn't a fundamental aspect to it, or at least according to blizzards 'class fantasy' BS they threw around when leading up to Legion.

We have npc's with us that we are forced to protect because of their low health pool, the problem is, they do nothing. Velen bugs up and either throws orbs like he has hero and the fast time on Chrono, or he never throws any orbs.

The tank scenario should focus more on tank mechanics, similar to the ones in the proving grounds instead of a straight dps / gear check.

- - - Updated - - -



Doesn't mean blizzard should focus the whole aspect of the challenge on dps. Considering the npc's do nothing, so losing threat isn't an issue.

- - - Updated - - -



Isn't that the primary role of a dps though?

Provide as much dps as possible without dying

Yes it is. However if you want to push high m+ and mythic raids tank dps absolutely matters whether you are bleeding edge raider or not. Any Good mythic raiding tank will tell you this. Along with healer dps being important also on some fights like Krosus since it's a dps check or any boss that has phases. Essentially the more dps you do the less dmg you are theoretically taking because the fight is shorter. Dps is the biggest surivivability.

[Aqarus]

Hey! Prot pally ilvl 902 equipped here. I've gotten so far as to ~24% on Phase 2. The thing that keeps killing me is the annihilate shockwave from Kruul. I've tryed blocking it with my bubble but you still get a stack on you.

Any advice and best practice?
I used legs+belt.

15 Lvl. Blessed Hammer. No choice.

30 and 45 Lvl, tried only [First avenger+Repentance] and [Crusader's Judgement + Fist of Justice] combination.
[First avenger+Repentance]
Pros:
Longer range.
Large numbers on selected target from AS. Often eyes are one shoot.
More AoE DPS when cleaving adds. Bigger absorbs. Move Grand Crusader procs.
Cons:
Repentance CD.
You need to consecration under the boss carefully or don't use repentance.

versus

[Crusader's Judgement + Fist of Justice]
Pros:
Stun is stun, it is not removed from consecration or bounced AS.
With proper Judgement spam Hammer of Justice has 15-20 sec CD.
Eye can be killed with two Judgements if one of them crtis.
More SotR.
Cons:
Short range.
Lower DPS single and AOE.

60 Lvl. Blessing of Spellwarding or Cavalier. I prefer spellward.
75 Lvl. HotP, Knight Templar, Final Stand.
HotP is not needed usually. If you performing right incoming damage easily healed by default LotP.
Knight Templar. Damage and Divine Steed cooldown reduction. May be usefull.
Final stand. Didn't try, but gonna try it in few hours when get home.

90 Lvl. Consecrated ground VS Judgement of light. Since adds are not slowed by improved consecration it useless. Judgement of light is choice. Especially if you can TAB target.

100 Lvl. Righteous protector VS Seraphim.
Seraphim is great DPS increase, small damage reduction, but consumes 2 SotR (Not a problem if Crusader's Judgement is taken)
Righteous protector. Solid increase in survivability, especially with Crusader's Judgement. Significant indirect DPS buff, especially with tryan since it reduces Avenging Wrath CD by 3 secs for each SotR used.

Trinkets: 905 Chronoshard + ???
Tried 895 fang when killing adds. Useless you kill them for a few seconds and have huge absorb from SA or you are torn apart.
Stat stick + crit 900. Small plain DPS and survivability increase.
Infernal contract 905. Didn't like. Usually it kills you.
Claw of the crystalline scorpid 895. Few procs during fighting adds help you to vaporize them.
Terrorbound Nexus 895. 1 ppm, that's enought. You smash adds if it procs, useless if it procs sometime else.
Different survivability trinkets. Useless, the fight is about DPS.

[Daan]

The problem is, is that the challenge is a pure dps check, it has nothing to do with survival at all. If I wanted to push my limits on dps, i'll do the dps challenges.

Tank challenge should have been something like proving grounds and not "be lucky not to get kicked from the platform and do big dips on freaky demons without help" (even the NPC in proving grounds was much better than Velen).

[Aqarus]

Hey! Prot pally ilvl 902 equipped here. I've gotten so far as to ~24% on Phase 2. The thing that keeps killing me is the annihilate shockwave from Kruul. I've tryed blocking it with my bubble but you still get a stack on you.

Any advice and best practice?
I used legs+belt.

15 Lvl. Blessed Hammer. No choice.

30 and 45 Lvl, tried only [First avenger+Repentance] and [Crusader's Judgement + Fist of Justice] combination.
[First avenger+Repentance]
Pros:
Longer range.
Large numbers on selected target from AS. Often eyes are one shoot.
More AoE DPS when cleaving adds. Bigger absorbs. Move Grand Crusader procs.
Cons:
Repentance CD.
You need to consecration under the boss carefully or don't use repentance.

versus

[Crusader's Judgement + Fist of Justice]
Pros:
Stun is stun, it is not removed from consecration or bounced AS.
With proper Judgement spam Hammer of Justice has 15-20 sec CD.
Eye can be killed with two Judgements if one of them crtis.
More SotR.
Cons:
Short range.
Lower DPS single and AOE.

60 Lvl. Blessing of Spellwarding or Cavalier. I prefer spellward.
75 Lvl. HotP, Knight Templar, Final Stand.
HotP is not needed usually. If you performing right incoming damage easily healed by default LotP.
Knight Templar. -20% Damage for 3 seconds and Divine Steed cooldown reduction. May be useful.
Final stand. Didn't try, but gonna try it in few hours when get home.

90 Lvl. Consecrated ground VS Judgement of light. Since adds are not slowed by improved consecration it useless. Judgement of light is choice. Especially if you can TAB target.

100 Lvl. Righteous protector VS Seraphim.
Seraphim is great DPS increase, small damage reduction, but consumes 2 SotR (Not a problem if Crusader's Judgement is taken)
Righteous protector. Solid increase in survivability, especially with Crusader's Judgement. Significant indirect DPS buff, especially with tryan since it reduces Avenging Wrath CD by 3 secs for each SotR used.

Trinkets: 905 Chronoshard + ???
Tried 895 fang when killing adds. Useless you kill them for a few seconds and have huge absorb from SA or you are torn apart.
Stat stick + crit 900. Small plain DPS and survivability increase.
Infernal contract 905. Didn't like. Usually it kills you.
Claw of the crystalline scorpid 895. Few procs during fighting adds help you to vaporize them.
Terrorbound Nexus 895. 1 ppm, that's enought. You smash adds if it procs, useless if it procs sometime else.
Different survivability trinkets. Useless, the fight is about DPS.

I did around 50 attempts most deaths were caused by infernal who kicked me out and I didn't use glider or death from boss if don't have crowd control and need to away of him.

[Deleted]

The absence of Prot Paladin tips speaks volumes. Giving the inquisitor double the HP for Paladins compared to every other tanking class was a terrible idea.

[Matthias]

I'm not trolling, just convinced that tanks are not meant to focus on dealing damage, ever. No one's said that active mitigation is difficult, that's just the basics of what a tank should have to handle.

That it hasn't felt like you've been able to protect your group since TBC is Blizzard's failure, and in raids I agree for the most part. Most boss mechanics are really lack-lustre. I think that's why I've had way more fun in mythic plus dungeons this expansion than in raids. At least there I can make full use of my tool kit.

The biggest reason I react as strongly as I do, is because I've been playing this game since Vanilla, and over the years the focus has been moving more and more towards one thing: Damage is the only thing that matters. It's the only thing DPS care about comparing to each other, warcraftlogs rankings only ranks damage, not how well you handle various mechanics, so someone slacking off not doing what they are supposed to do will rank higher than someone who does their job.

If damage is the only thing that matters, then I'm not even sure why I'm playing this game any more. Damage is the most boring, most basic thing, and at least in my mind, it has always been what you fall back to when you have nothing more important to do.

This challenge, which is intended for tanks, has the main focus of damage. You're not protecting anyone or anything, you're merely chasing down threats and trying to kill everything before you drown. That's a challenge intended for dps, not tanks.

This, is a tank to me:

So arguement is a beef with Blizzards design philosophy? I can level with you on that. Hell I made an entire thread about it not long ago.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...a-Numbers-Game Most people were to ignorant to understand what I was getting at saying "lol the game was always about pulling high DPS"....it wasn't. Even as a DPS class imo the game was more engaging when threat and CC were a thing in 5 mans because it kept you on edge, if you pulled aggro could die or cause a wipe, if you didn't apply CC correctly, kite, etc.

Blizz made the decision that it wasn't "fun" for DPS to not be able to unload on bosses instantly. A game play style I don't mind, but did remove some depth. I think the real reason though was because an entire group could only play as well as their tank. If your tank sucked you could only do so much DPS, where as you could push harder if your tank was good. Had to be frustrating (I was a tank in TBC so I wouldn't know). Tanking in WoTLK and so forth.....literally like 90% of the bosses just have some Taunt on X stack mechanic. Before a Tank swap was far more interesting because it was done with threat management.

This is why I actually love the Gul'dan encounter because managing the Fel Scythes is interesting.

[KrotosTheTank]

Actually people are saying that, repeatedly.

We're not only there to not die, we're also there to protect the group and keep them from harms way. We are not there however to deal damage. You want damage? Bring a damage dealer.

I've read this entire thread, some areas a few times, you're the only one saying that. Obviously many are saying that dps is important (and it's clear you disagree) but not a single person has said to go for DPS > Survivabililty except for you in your fictitious scenario of a tank dying all the time with "leet dps". It's fair to say that we'd ALL agree that a tank that is often dead before the enemy is dead is a bad tank...

Those of us here in this thread, those trying to beat the challenge this early in the game, are clearly good players, otherwise we wouldn't even be wasting our time on it right now. Good, experienced players are ones who know how to utilize everything we're given, and that includes damage. We can argue all day about this specific challenge, but i'll just refer to my previous post on that matter.

[Reloe]

Thanks for the video and thank you even more for the breakdown of p2. I like your choices when it comes to legendaries though I do have a few question about the strategy you used for some of your other key choices both gear and talent wise.

Which affinity talent do you recommend? They each seems to have key advantages with this particular encounter but I am sure you finally settled on one you felt was superior.

Also, what do you recommend for trinkets? Is the dps requirement so steep you needed to focus more of dps choices? I noticed you did not mention a CD trinket to make it through the 2nd annihilate so I assume you run more dps oriented trinkets or possibly passive stat sticks.

well Balance Affinity is basically required for the challenge, its not really an option to got into the dnd each time you want to dps the boss, never even bothered with the others.
Survivability in this challenge is mainly handled through orbs and avoiding damage so going for defensive trinkets made little sense as the fight gets significantly easier when shortening the combat time. I ultimately went with 885memento+880arcanocrystal. Stat-Sticks are a good choice aswell.
Here's a screen of gear/talents aswell: http://prnt.sc/ese2xc

[Williee]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkXiH6J8rWE

Reloe pretty much broke down the fight really well
Some extra things i found out, you can use goblin glider, it pretty much saved me during p2 in the video.
You can live 4th annihilate with 2 iron fur + rage, however you need to be full hp.
P1 isn't as much of a dps race as it is mechanics, the biggest issue I had was p1. Literally one mistake and you can be off the platform. A big misunderstanding I was doing a lot the first day of attempts, I prioritize dpsing inquisitor at all times while cleaving everything else. NO! When infernals are out, you should swap targets to them and cleave inquisitor. This will allow you to build up rage a lot better as well as kill them quicker. Keep in mind, inquisitor is still ticking with mf and thrash x3 stacks. Doing this helped me consistently get out of that phase a lot smoother.
P2, I followed some of the kill videos I saw other players had. Since I didn't get to p2 too often, I decided to use the sand of time trinket in hopes it saves my life during a gib moment.



http://imgur.com/a/0gbG5
In the screenshot, you will see the gear setup.

[Heimdall89]

A response from part of a ticket I had submitted...

"As for the Boss, this is a more vague one, mainly because we can't give hints about these. However I can confirm that currently that is his set health for the Prot Paladin. However there is no confirmation that this is bugged so we can only assume that it is working correctly. As for why that is that way, we would have no way to tell you. As that is a design decision and thus would be something best brough up on the forums. "

So they expect paladins to survive ~2x as long or for paladins to do ~2x the damage of every other tank in the game. Wow, that's reasonable...

[Williee]

I'm not trolling, just convinced that tanks are not meant to focus on dealing damage, ever. No one's said that active mitigation is difficult, that's just the basics of what a tank should have to handle.

That it hasn't felt like you've been able to protect your group since TBC is Blizzard's failure, and in raids I agree for the most part. Most boss mechanics are really lack-lustre. I think that's why I've had way more fun in mythic plus dungeons this expansion than in raids. At least there I can make full use of my tool kit.

The biggest reason I react as strongly as I do, is because I've been playing this game since Vanilla, and over the years the focus has been moving more and more towards one thing: Damage is the only thing that matters. It's the only thing DPS care about comparing to each other, warcraftlogs rankings only ranks damage, not how well you handle various mechanics, so someone slacking off not doing what they are supposed to do will rank higher than someone who does their job.

If damage is the only thing that matters, then I'm not even sure why I'm playing this game any more. Damage is the most boring, most basic thing, and at least in my mind, it has always been what you fall back to when you have nothing more important to do.

This challenge, which is intended for tanks, has the main focus of damage. You're not protecting anyone or anything, you're merely chasing down threats and trying to kill everything before you drown. That's a challenge intended for dps, not tanks.

This, is a tank to me:

When Velen dies during p1 and p2, and that DH (don't even remember her name) dies in p2, tell me if your not protecting anyone. Granted it is thrash and they are off them but you are still protecting them. Some of my attempts, I have to save them by using an orb.
Lol I remember watching my vod, the DH somehow died with an annihilate stack and stepping into the netherstomp felfire circle Krull left behind. I was so confused how the DH died.

[Hctaz]

And if you ever prioritize damage over doing your job as tank, you're even worse.

Yeah so what? Being a good tank is maximizing both. The optimal way to do a fight is for everybody to live with exactly zero resources and 1 health. If you live with any more than that then you're doing slightly less than optimal but that obviously isn't something we all strive for. We expend more or less mana than we need, we take less damage than we could, we deal less damage than we should. That's just how the game goes. If your tank is doing nothing but surviving when the entire raid isn't taking damage then he's not playing as well as somebody who says "Fuck it, my healers got me since there's no raid damage. I'm going full damage mode and building up my defensive resources for whenever the damage comes to me or my raid"

Do you measure healers based on the damage they deal as well? Do only bring the healers which manage to pull the most amount of damage?

Yes, actually. Usually at the start of fights that are dps checks but have little damage in the beginning (Ursoc, Spellblade, Krosus) we ask our healers to pump out as much damage as possible while healing isn't required. The best healers are the ones that can do that during times where they don't need to heal. You should always be doing something. If you're healing that paladin who is at 90% health because he's the only one taking damage but it isn't even fatal then you're wasting time. If you're sitting there doing nothing then it's even worse.

Also, do you re-roll every patch to whichever class deals the most damage?

Nope. Played and raided with a DK since Wrath. Won't change.

- - - Updated - - -

Doesn't mean blizzard should focus the whole aspect of the challenge on dps. Considering the npc's do nothing, so losing threat isn't an issue.

Threat is never an issue. The challenge is asking you to maximize your damage while also keeping yourself alive like the best tanks do now. The challenge might be too hard for other tanks. I hear that bears and monks could do it but DKs and DHs were having problems (no surprise there). It's probably because bears and monks are so naturally tanky that they can focus on dps more than the other classes.

Isn't that the primary role of a dps though?

Provide as much dps as possible without dying

Not really. Tanks are constantly under the threat of dying. The dps' job is to maximize damage and not stand in stupid shit. They aren't actively facing death at all ends. A tank's job is to maximize damage while not trying not to die from the natural boss damage in the process. If a dps dies from natural boss AoE that is unavoidable then that's the healer's issue. If the dps dies from fire then that's a dps issue.

[Deleted]

A response from part of a ticket I had submitted...

"As for the Boss, this is a more vague one, mainly because we can't give hints about these. However I can confirm that currently that is his set health for the Prot Paladin. However there is no confirmation that this is bugged so we can only assume that it is working correctly. As for why that is that way, we would have no way to tell you. As that is a design decision and thus would be something best brough up on the forums. "

So they expect paladins to survive ~2x as long or for paladins to do ~2x the damage of every other tank in the game. Wow, that's reasonable...

Blizzard support with in-game tickets is more than likely an outsourced service to some "indian" call-center ala.

I would take all of it with a massive grain of salt, unless it actually came from a more reputable source, say perhaps the Community Manager of a region. Still a grain of salt though.

Those plebs at 1st level helpdesk can be anyone from the most veteran of knowledgeable people to the utter pathetic yesterdays recruit.