S2M missed?

[Redknot]

I don't visit these forums often so I'm not sure if this is a popular post subject.

However, I find spriest really enjoyable, but a mere shadow of the S2M playstyle we used to have. Not necessarily for it's insane OP damage, but mostly for the intensity of S2M at high VF stacks.

Things I'm looking for in BfA is a rework of LoTV to make us more viable in dungeons (quicker ramp, less long term dmg), but leaving S2M for raiding. I think LoTV is so boring in concept and would love to see more playstyles for spriest.

What do you guys think?

[Caladia]

I definitely am expecting S2M to continue to be around, but to be a 2-3m CD ability. Super long VF durations now and then won't be as crazy OP as long as Mass Hysteria isn't around. Unless they bake that trait in as a spec passive.

But yes, it would be nice to see the ability to go into VF earlier than 100 and find something else for LotV to do, as well as making Shadow Crash baseline. I dunno, I'm interested in seeing what changes they decide to go with for us.

[Redknot]

Yup, great points. On the same page as you.

If shadow crash is baseline (which is probably has to be since competing with LoTV and S2M is pretty hard) than they would need a third option for talents most likely. Wondering what other playstyle they could come up with. Would be interesting.

[Deleted]

As long as it requires you to die, kills you for a simple mistake/lag spike and needs to be timed perfectly to end at the target's death, it needs to be OP, because otherwise it's just not worth it.

Personally I still wouldn't skill a talent that kills me out of principle - even though the high haste phase is fun, but not enough to die for.
If it became just a normal cooldown resulting in a longer voidform, well why not.

[Caladia]

With it being a 2-3m cd, they would have to remove the death part of it, which would be expected. No way it can be a 2-3m cd and expect to be used multiple times on a decent length fight if it kills you.

But alas, we'll have to wait and see.

[Yvaelle]

I don't miss S2M at all.

I warned the devs the moment they announced it at the very first Legion announcement it was unbalanceable, and everything I said came to pass in that regard.

The issue is simple. Any ability whose con is, "kills you. horribly." has to correspondingly have an upside which makes that risk worthwhile. Not just your inevitable death, but also the constant GCD risk while it is active that you won't cast something to refresh it, and die. AND it needs to compensate for the lost opportunity cost of not just taking an adjacent tier talent (ex. LotV).

The result is simple. S2M only has 2 possible balance points. Either it does broken amounts of damage and all the other classes cry because Spriests can do colossal damage (at colossal risk, but they don't care about that), or it does competitive damage and it isn't worth the risk over an adjacent tier talent. There is no inbetween. Adjusting the rate of decay or the cooldown or even what exactly the talent does is entirely irrelevant so long as the talent still kills you, it cannot be balanced ever: mandatory or trash. That's why I could call it out from the earliest incarnation that was little more than, "Causes the spriest to do a bunch of damage, then die".

To think about it another way, imagine if another class had it. Imagine if Fury Warriors had an attack called "Kill Everything", whose description was, "The Fury Warrior whirlwinds, dealing massive damage, then dies of exhaustion". How hard does that whirlwind have to hit where the Fury Warrior is ever going to use that ability? It would need to hit for 10's if not 100's of millions of damage before having your Fury Warrior intentionally kill themselves in the middle of a progression boss would be worthwhile. What would happen to Mythic+ dungeons then? Tank just pulls 100 things, fury warrior leaps in and kills everything, runs back to the group? Progression boss, screw everyone else, just bring 10 fury warriors and one-shot the boss on the pull? You can't balance damage around the certainty of death that follows.

Surrender to madness is, was, and will always be bad game design. It will never be balanceable, it should be removed - I'm sure literally every shadowpriest on this forum could propose a better talent they would like to see to take it's place: there is no lack of ideas.

[Kilee25]

Surrender to madness is, was, and will always be bad game design. It will never be balanceable, it should be removed - I'm sure literally every shadowpriest on this forum could propose a better talent they would like to see to take it's place: there is no lack of ideas.

I have an idea. Replace S2M with an ability that gives us a short cast time single target spell, which will remove dots from the target, and makes Mind Blast instant cast.

[Yvaelle]

I have an idea. Replace S2M with an ability that gives us a short cast time single target spell, which will remove dots from the target, and makes Mind Blast instant cast.

Is this like bringing back Dark Archangel? Because I could definitely use some wings again!

[Caladia]

I don't miss the S2M play style, the frantic button pressing, being unable to make raid callouts for the last 30-60s of a boss fight, etc. I merely stated that I don't expect them to completely remove S2M from the game, just that it'll be reworked into something quite different than it is now. Especially with the death mechanic.

[Redknot]

Man....the spammable scary moments before death was what made Spriest so fun to me. Ever since S2M has been out of competitive possibility I've been just missing it and feeling like LoTV is so boring. I guess my point of view isn't popular though...too bad.

Whether it's balanceable is debatable, but I think you make good points that it's pretty hard to balance.

Another option other than death was becoming a voidling after you ran out of insanity where your raid has to DPS you until you go back to normal. Class fantasy. Kek.
Still would like to see high VF stacks though since that's what made it so fun. The death part was somewhat annoying but the fun outweighed the death for me.

[Veiled Shadow]

Either it does broken amounts of damage and all the other classes cry because Spriests can do colossal damage (at colossal risk, but they don't care about that), or it does competitive damage and it isn't worth the risk over an adjacent tier talent.

Well, right now StM still has its place as a niche talent, and that's fine IMO.

(Also, @OP I enjoy StM the most out of any shadow priest playstyles for sure, as well).

[xcitng]

Yvaelle sums it up well, to hard to balance.

I hope its removed.

[Deleted]

The current iteration of S2M, a talent to dick around with on farm, is perfectly fine game design.

[Theed]

S2M can't die soon enough. Impossible to balance, far too latency punishing, unplayable in pvp.

[Nurvus]

S2M should be weaker but instead of death you would get an undispellable DoT for X sec after you exit VF based on how long you were in VF, and have a 2-3m cooldown.

That way you could coordinate with your raid how many stacks of DoT your healers can handle and build your rotation around it.

[Nihiel]

I have an idea. Replace S2M with an ability that gives us a short cast time single target spell, which will remove dots from the target, and makes Mind Blast instant cast.

I would give anything to bring back CoP. I reminisce those days, back when spriest hadn't been tainted by fotm-S2M and void tentacle memes. I'm still grateful for your CoP guide to this day, Kilee!

[Kilee25]

Is this like bringing back Dark Archangel? Because I could definitely use some wings again!

Hell yes.

[Spicymemer]

S2M was never overtuned, EN was undertuned.

mass hysteria and twist of fate were the problems.

[Cracked]

I would give anything to bring back CoP. I reminisce those days, back when spriest hadn't been tainted by fotm-S2M and void tentacle memes. I'm still grateful for your CoP guide to this day, Kilee!

Yes, CoP dotweave and S2M were the most fun rotation there ever was in the entire game imo.

on topic: Shadowpriests have needed a meaningful cooldown since.. ever? S2M might be cool as a 3-4 min cooldown to reduce insanity drain by 50% and lets the priest carry their next VF to 65-70 stacks let's say. Without dying of course.

[ThrashMetalFtw]

Yes, CoP dotweave and S2M were the most fun rotation there ever was in the entire game imo.

Fun is subjective. Personally I HATED both. A more relevant issue is that both CoP and S2M are the two most "anti SP" playstyles we've ever had.

The current LotV Shadow has its issues aswell, mainly that it's way too punishing if you ever make a single mistake / have to move once above 35 stacks, but it's infinitely better than S2M.

Remove Mass Hysteria (this is 100% going to happen in BfA if they have any clue how to design classes). VB and MB should also do a lot more dmg, but have higher CDs. Our current VB - x - x spam during VF is not fun, and it feels more like playing a ranged Fury Warr than a Shadow Priest.

The current version of Shadow can be fun at times, but whenever I think about it purely from a mechanical point of view, the more I dislike it.