Why should I like Tyrande?

[Alex86el]

on paper she is not that bad.
in-game she is very abnoxious.
i think it is mostly her voice actress.

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Night Elves aren't just sexy fantasy-models ingame. Tyrande is not supposed to be friendly, nice and "likable". Night Elves are supposed to be fierce.

WoW's iteration of Night Elves is horseshit at best.

I'm hoping one day they will make them more barbariac.

also this.
lorewise the nightelves are supposed to be fierce and rugged and not like they are portrayed in-game.
if you look at the concept art for nightelves in wc3, they're pretty monstrous.

[Tharivor]

Honestly I don't get the Tyrande hate on these forums because of the Nightborne thing. Her disliking the Nightborne makes perfect sense for her character- she's always been distrustful of the arcane and the Highbotne in particular. It doesn't maker her a "bitch" and nor is it bad writing- bad writing would be for her to suddenly love the arcane and welcome the Nightborne just so alliance players can have a new cool looking character model (which seems to be what a lot if people on here wanted to happen)

[Sorrowseer]

People have kept throwing around the excuse that Nightborne belong to the Horde because Tyrande was rude that one time. Let me be clear, I have no problem with Horde Nightborne specifically, but why does Tyrande have to be the cause? Why couldn't they find a better way to justify it?

The question I keep asking myself as an alliance fan is, why should I like Tyrande after that?

Ever since the start of the MMO Tyrande has been nothing but a hindrance to the Alliance. She ruined relations with the Blood Elves in BC, now this, and on top of it all she's not even that great a commander as evidenced in MoP. The only positive thing that I can maybe attribute to her is that she helped bring Gilneas back into the Alliance. Too bad the only time we see her during that questline is at the tail end where she welcomes Wargen players.

What do you guys think?

She was pretty fire in MoP aswell as a leader, her flaws being painfully pointed out, in the instance of BfA it was just used as a prominent example, one iof many, but as they suck at telling a story of actual races and political structures it was far to prominent to the point that its the biggest reason in many peoples views.

As for me I think she sucks in general.

[Imperium Romanum]

She is not perfect in strategy, I agree but she is not like how she was demonstrated in MoP scenario as well. In WC3 priestesses of the moon had an ability called scout owl IIRC. you summon an owl to scout and spy on enemy. In case of Tyrande she has Dori'thur, the owl that we only see in Darnassus and not anywhere else sadly. Night Elves are good in scouting and spying, something which was in contrast with the scenario in MoP. There are many features about Tyrande and Night Elves that Blizzard neglected over time unfortunately. I doubt there is a single person in the lore team who benefits from a proper knowledge about Night Elves.

Agreed. Tyrande was presented as more reckless than she should have in the MoP scenario, and that was likely to the convenience of Varian. That being said, she needs just one single scenario to turn her around into the Priestess of Elune she is.

I must point out something about Val'Sharah. Her display throughout the questline was cringing but the ending was not. Her handling of the decision and the way she handled Ysera's assault was a step in the right direction. The lore team should head that way and show her mystical powers rather than her yells. At the end of the day, if she does have good recon skills, they should be shown at the heat of battle.

Lest I forget. Night Elf lore is not hard to grasp. Keeping the basics is what is needed, sans the Druidic theme. As of late the Night Elven lore is only produced from a single society/class whereas the backbone (Sentinels and Huntresses) are given less focus.

[Goldielocks]

Varian was widely hated during WotLK. He never turned bad, and even gained support in the playerbase during the subsequent expansions. So much that his death in Legion was a shock.

I'd argue there were other factors that prevented Varian from going down the same path. For one, he was absent for much of WoW up until Wrath. Two, he's been the only High King of the Alliance up until then. Garrosh was new, and it had an effect. Third, Varian's death was only possible because Vol'jin also died. Vol'jin as a character was shafted to make this possible, which directly contradicts my first point. He was Warchief for a very short period but still died.

Blizzard doesn't seem to care about this stuff.

There's no track record, that's nothing but weak anecdotal evidence. Garrosh wasn't liked by many but if there's something Afrasiabi's messed up questline in Stonetalon managed to achieve was giving the character more fans, since he seemed to become slightly more likeable than he used to.

Garrosh was designed to become a villain since WotLK times, Saurfang's written words about him potentially leading the Orcs towards the same dark path walked in the past was a foreshadowing huge as a mountain. Afrasiabi's Cata shenanigans didn't change that.

For someone who declares weak anecdotal evidence you sure do a lot of assuming in this post. Designed? lmao ok

[Zulkhan]

For someone who declares weak anecdotal evidence you sure do a lot of assuming in this post. Designed? lmao ok

At least I back up my claims with something. Your assumption is more or less an unsubstantiated conspiracy theory and you have literally nothing in your hands to back it up.

[Destinas]

Tyrande's simply an inconsistent character. In WC3, she was xenophobic, and needed Malfurion to coax her into getting help from others for Hyjal. In Cataclysm, she happily accepted the Highborne and Worgen into her city, despite the track record for those races in the past. Then, in MoP, she requested the Highborne go to Pandaria to help the Night Elves there because of a vision from Elune. Fast forward to Legion, and she hates the Nightborne because they're like the Highborne. Like, what?

The one thing about her that has been consistent is her reckless behavior. She released Illidan without permission, and got a bunch of people killed in WC3. She rushed head-first into the Emerald Nightmare, leaving behind Broll in Stormrage, nearly getting herself killed and lost forever in the Dream. She had her Sentinels rush into the Temple of Chi-Ji in MoP, only for Varian to have to tell her "If you think before you rush in, things turn out better" - to which she was like "omg you're so wise, you're MY High King!" Even in Legion, she ran into Nightmare-infested areas to save Malfurion, instead of getting help from more of her armies. I suppose her behavior to the Nightborne could be seen as "reckless" as well, because she never once said anything nice or neutral, everything was a jab.

Inconsistent, reckless, and rude pretty much sums up Tyrande. Which is too bad, because they could make her a compelling, wise character, considering how long she's been alive, and how she has the whispers of a goddess in her ear at all times. But, because of that, no one has to like her at all until they write her better. But, it also works to have her be a horrible character, since it makes other people look better.

[Nathasil]

Tyrande's simply an inconsistent character. In WC3, she was xenophobic, and needed Malfurion to coax her into getting help from others for Hyjal. In Cataclysm, she happily accepted the Highborne and Worgen into her city, despite the track record for those races in the past. Then, in MoP, she requested the Highborne go to Pandaria to help the Night Elves there because of a vision from Elune. Fast forward to Legion, and she hates the Nightborne because they're like the Highborne. Like, what?

The one thing about her that has been consistent is her reckless behavior. She released Illidan without permission, and got a bunch of people killed in WC3. She rushed head-first into the Emerald Nightmare, leaving behind Broll in Stormrage, nearly getting herself killed and lost forever in the Dream. She had her Sentinels rush into the Temple of Chi-Ji in MoP, only for Varian to have to tell her "If you think before you rush in, things turn out better" - to which she was like "omg you're so wise, you're MY High King!" Even in Legion, she ran into Nightmare-infested areas to save Malfurion, instead of getting help from more of her armies. I suppose her behavior to the Nightborne could be seen as "reckless" as well, because she never once said anything nice or neutral, everything was a jab.

Inconsistent, reckless, and rude pretty much sums up Tyrande. Which is too bad, because they could make her a compelling, wise character, considering how long she's been alive, and how she has the whispers of a goddess in her ear at all times. But, because of that, no one has to like her at all until they write her better. But, it also works to have her be a horrible character, since it makes other people look better.

I disagree completely. While you are correct that some traits of tyrande have been shown very inconsistent, she has always been consistent in her actions: She follows the will of Elune.

Most people seem to have simply stopped caring about Val'shara when they heard the voice acting and ridicule it at every occasion...but if you just look at the story, what Tyrande did in the end was absolutely remarkable and just grand. She sacrificed her love to not only go into battle....but into battle against Ysera. A creature she loved. And she did so without hesitating. The Val'shara end cinematic was a great tribute to who Tyrande is: She is the High Priestess of Elune. No more, no less.

If you are not a fan of devout, faithful characters...fine. That's cool. I happen to be an Atheist and think organised religion is stupid and dangerous IRL. But i LOVE priests in fantasy, where gods and magic actually exist.

As for the Nightborne....Blizzard wanted to give them to the Horde and they had to find SOME reason why. What Tyrande says to them is no reason. It's absolutely fine, what she tells them...she is just not lieing to them and licking their salvia like Liadrin. Imho Liadrin, a character i really liked before Legion, suffered far more from the Nightborne questline than Tyrande...because Paladins should not be lieing shitlickers...and that's what the recruitment quest shows her to be.
You can see from all reactions everywhere that Blizzards way of getting both faction's players to bond with the Nightborne and then push them into one faction for all out war for no reason at all did not go well. Blaming that on Tyrande is just wrong, imho. It was a shitty concept for the whole introduction of Nightborne. Blizzard could simply not be assed to make a zone comparable to Suramar for the Alliance and split it up.

[Destinas]

I disagree completely. While you are correct that some traits of tyrande have been shown very inconsistent, she has always been consistent in her actions: She follows the will of Elune.

Most people seem to have simply stopped caring about Val'shara when they heard the voice acting and ridicule it at every occasion...but if you just look at the story, what Tyrande did in the end was absolutely remarkable and just grand. She sacrificed her love to not only go into battle....but into battle against Ysera. A creature she loved. And she did so without hesitating. The Val'shara end cinematic was a great tribute to who Tyrande is: She is the High Priestess of Elune. No more, no less.

If you are not a fan of devout, faithful characters...fine. That's cool. I happen to be an Atheist and think organised religion is stupid and dangerous IRL. But i LOVE priests in fantasy, where gods and magic actually exist.

As for the Nightborne....Blizzard wanted to give them to the Horde and they had to find SOME reason why. What Tyrande says to them is no reason. It's absolutely fine, what she tells them...she is just not lieing to them and licking their salvia like Liadrin. Imho Liadrin, a character i really liked before Legion, suffered far more from the Nightborne questline than Tyrande...because Paladins should not be lieing shitlickers...and that's what the recruitment quest shows her to be.
You can see from all reactions everywhere that Blizzards way of getting both faction's players to bond with the Nightborne and then push them into one faction for all out war for no reason at all did not go well. Blaming that on Tyrande is just wrong, imho. It was a shitty concept for the whole introduction of Nightborne. Blizzard could simply not be assed to make a zone comparable to Suramar for the Alliance and split it up.

Most of what I spoke about, regarding her recklessness, is not the will of Elune, however. She did have visions from Elune to help Malfurion in the Nightmare during the events of Stormrage, but when she got there, she simply ran around inside, got lost, disregarded Broll's warning about illusions, and nearly got herself killed. It was the will of Elune to go to Pandaria, but it wasn't the will of Elune to nearly get her troops killed in the Temple of Chi-Ji, needing Varian to step in and talk her down.

I have no negative opinions about holy characters - that can be written well. I feel Tyrande is not, however. If she was as devout and trusting of her goddess as she claims to be, then she would have no personal feelings about different groups of people, and different races. She clearly still dislikes trolls, from the way she has spoken to Vol'jin in Siege of Orgrimmar - that is clearly cultural/personal bias, but Elune clearly does not dislike trolls, based on her past. If it was the will of Elune to allow the Highborne into Darnassus again, that's cool, but Tyrande shouldn't get pissed when they use magic, as they have since the Kaldorei Empire. It's not that she shouldn't have her own personal feelings, but everything she says contradicts everything she does in the name of Elune.

As far as Val'sharah, I don't care at all about the voice acting at all, that doesn't bother me. It was clear that the "whiny" Malfurion was an illusion by Xavius, when the real Malfurion in Darkheart Thicket was sassy and defiant. That said, what bothered me was the fact that Tyrande went in alone, when Blizzard could have written in more of a story for Shandris, Broll, other druids, other sentinels, and other night elves in general. It, once again, made Tyrande look impatient and reckless, especially when she was (once again) rude to Horde players that help her in that questline.

As far as Suramar, yeah, it was crappy. There were far more character that could have appeared (like Maiev and Jarod, since that's their hometown too), but it was mostly left up to Tyrande's diplomacy, which they wrote poorly. There really wasn't much of a reason for Tyrande to be there, when she advocated the Shal'dorei take up the fight so less Night Elves will die in a world quest. She wanted to destroy the Nightwell before knowing about the Arcan'dor, or considering the fate of the Nightfallen. None of that was spoken as Elune's will, just simply Tyrande's own bias - according to Thalyssra, Elune's will led the Night Elves away from the Nightborne, but we don't know if she was being snarky, or if it was simply an open ending that the First Arcanist had to interpret after Tyrande's words. Sure, it wasn't well done, and Tyrande shouldn't take the blame. But, it also fits in with her personal bias against magic users, and less to do with Elune at all.

[Every Pwny]

She is not perfect in strategy, I agree but she is not like how she was demonstrated in MoP scenario as well. In WC3 priestesses of the moon had an ability called scout owl IIRC. you summon an owl to scout and spy on enemy. In case of Tyrande she has Dori'thur, the owl that we only see in Darnassus and not anywhere else sadly. Night Elves are good in scouting and spying, something which was in contrast with the scenario in MoP. There are many features about Tyrande and Night Elves that Blizzard neglected over time unfortunately. I doubt there is a single person in the lore team who benefits from a proper knowledge about Night Elves.

Who would even been considered a good strategist in wow? The only real thing people point to is the MoP scenario where Tyrande routed the horde and funneling them into a temple, and then listened to Varian's idea of taunting the orcs until they ran out into obvious traps until they were all dead. Then in SoO we see Vol'jin and Baine making the most incompetent military decisions, sending poorly equipped warriors to attack a sealed wall with a robot they couldn't deal with, Vol'jin and Baine didn't even bring in seige engines to assault the wall. So in MoP they made the obviously most incompetent military decisions and it's obvious they don't care about the lives of their warriors. In that same fight Tyrande waits until the robot they've never fought before is down to assault the wall with siege weapons and kill the guards.

I don't know who people would consider good at strategy though in wow, but most characters make extremely bad decisions, tyrande listening to Varian was not a bad strategic decision, and Tyrande assaulting the gates of Org with siege weapons was not a bad decision either.

[Zulkhan]

Then in SoO we see Vol'jin and Baine making the most incompetent military decisions, sending poorly equipped warriors

They were fittingly equipped as long warrior equipment goes. The lack of power was the issue, the one the Mary Sue'd PCs don't definitely lack.

Vol'jin and Baine didn't even bring in seige engines to assault the wall

False, the siege engines were destroyed. Nazgrim makes an unmistakable comment about it. Hell, you could see plenty of those in the non-instanced Razor Hill 5.4 area. Clearly they didn't disappear like thin air all of a sudden.

In that same fight Tyrande waits until the robot they've never fought before is down to assault the wall with siege weapons and kill the guards.

Vol'jin's rebellion was the one that fought its way to the gates of Orgrimmar and forced Garrosh's forces to hide behind the city's walls and a giant robot. Tyrande being an opportunist out of blatantly convenient circumstances (someone else was leading the frontline and putting any pressure on the True Horde) does not give her any particular credit.

I don't know who people would consider good at strategy though in wow, but most characters make extremely bad decisions

I mean, at least in his novel Vol'jin is depicted as pretty keen strategist. Tyrande fails to shine on that field even in her novels.

tyrande listening to Varian was not a bad strategic decision

Let's not pretend Tyrande was a good "strategist" by merely accepting the strategy of the one who actually came up with said strategy.

Tyrande assaulting the gates of Org with siege weapons was not a bad decision either

Which she could do because she opportunistically waited until the robot was down, which she could do because someone else was keeping Garrosh's forces busy. It wasn't a bad decision, it wasn't anything particularly smart either. If anything, she should have logically offered her support earlier, not waiting for other people to deal with the tough shit while sitting on her ass or presumably doing something else in the meantime.

[ravenmoon]

It's really not the only cause though. The Nightborne were once Highborne, and the Night Elves are still weary of Arcane magic after all these years. Thalyssra believed that joining back up with the Nelves would keep them just as stagnated as they were in their bubble, as far as the Arcane is concerned.

Tyrande having no diplomatic skills, and Liadrin acting empathetic, only made this an easier choice for Thalyssra.

Really.. what evidence do you have the night elves being wary of arcane magic these days?

imo, it has nothing to do with the night elves and arcane magic, the blood elves sucked up to Thalyssra, Tyrande was more reserved. Thalyssra felt the blood elves gave them the respect and honour they deserve while Tyrande's was more difficult. I won't blame Tyrande for that. However it must be noted she reacts that way because the developers want the nightborne to go horde. She would have been much nicer if they were going alliance. Then you'd have heard all the reunion stories.

[Every Pwny]

They were fittingly equipped as long warrior equipment goes. The lack of power was the issue, the one the Mary Sue'd PCs don't definitely lack.

They were practically naked, with spears going up against a giant robot. They were not equpped to fight that, and them dying instantly shows that.

False, the siege engines were destroyed. Nazgrim makes an unmistakable comment about it. Hell, you could see plenty of those in the non-instanced Razor Hill 5.4 area. Clearly they didn't disappear like thin air all of a sudden.

They had no siege weapons, and he was just going to continue to throw his soldiers at the wall uselessly. His plan was obviously a failure, when you think he is displaying anything but incompetence here and disregard for the lives of his troops it shows an extreme bias.

Vol'jin's rebellion was the one that fought its way to the gates of Orgrimmar and forced Garrosh's forces to hide behind the city's walls and a giant robot. Tyrande being an opportunist out of blatantly convenient circumstances (someone else was leading the frontline and putting any pressure on the True Horde) does not give her any particular credit.

Tyrande also fought through Ashenvale up to the gates of Orgrimmar, and brought siege weapons to take down the gates. Here though you are saying waiting for the critical moment to strike is not good strategy, while sending your men in to die uselessly against a robot is good.

I mean, at least in his novel Vol'jin is depicted as pretty keen strategist. Tyrande fails to shine on that field even in her novels.

Vol'jin is never particularly shown to be a keen strategist at all, he is shown to have loa on his side to fight for him, but never really shows any true competence for strategy.

Let's not pretend Tyrande was a good "strategist" by merely accepting the strategy of the one who actually came up with said strategy.

Here you are saying that listening to advice is not good strategy, she routed the horde and pushed them all the way into the temple, and then instead of sending her sentinels in like she initially wanted to do, she listened to Varian's advice. Listening to good advice is smart, but your obvious bias against her is saying that listening to advice is stupid, just like you are said striking at the opportune moment is stupid.

Which she could do because she opportunistically waited until the robot was down, which she could do because someone else was keeping Garrosh's forces busy. It wasn't a bad decision, it wasn't anything particularly smart either. If anything, she should have logically offered her support earlier, not waiting for other people to deal with the tough shit while sitting on her ass or presumably doing something else in the meantime.

She was assaulting Org from the other side, the alliance assaulted from the sea, horde assaulted from the front and the night elves assaulted from the forest. But here you are trying to say striking at the opportune time is stupid, that's smart strategy. Also assaulting a wall with siege weapons is smart as opposed to sending your men to die uselessly without hope of breaching the wall.

But regardless it's been interesting seeing how many hoops people who don't like tyrande will jump through to say everything she does is stupid, while defending other stupid decisions from leaders they like. I mean vol'jin's attack head on into the wall with no chance was stupider than Tyrande trying to charge head on into the open temple, and she didn't even do that but you will gloss over Vol'jin doing a far stupider move and just throwing the lives of his troops away needlessly.

[Zulkhan]

They were practically naked, with spears going up against a giant robot. They were not equpped to fight that, and them dying instantly shows that.

It can't show what is factually false. These are the warriors who were sent against the Iron Juggernaut. Dat many spears and exposed skin.

They had no siege weapons

Again, the siege weapons were destroyed. Nazgrim implies it, blatantly. Something something giant robot something.

His plan was obviously a failure, when you think he is displaying anything but incompetence here and disregard for the lives of his troops it shows an extreme bias.

The bit of mine you just quoted said nothing about competence or incompetence. I called out a lie, which is exactly what it was. A plan meant to assault Orgrimmar with no siege weapons never existed, apart in your own imagination.

Tyrande also fought through Ashenvale up to the gates of Orgrimmar, and brought siege weapons to take down the gates. Here though you are saying waiting for the critical moment to strike is not good strategy, while sending your men in to die uselessly against a robot is good.

"Fought through" what, exactly? Because last time I checked the Alliance crushed the Horde offensive in Ashenvale and it's pretty obvious that the relevant bulk of Garrosh's forces were all around Durotar/the Barrens/Orgrimmar, the places he obviously intended to defend from "the armies of the world" he pulled to his fortress.

Again, I never talked about grand strategy, only about the nature of circumstances. Vol'jin's rebellion was indeed leading the frontline and had no choice but to keep Garrosh occupied, one way or another. No one else was there apart them.

Critical moment? Tyrande literally waited for others to do the tough job. Striking at a "critical moment" would have meant flanking the Iron Juggernaut and speed its demise up.

Vol'jin is never particularly shown to be a keen strategist at all, he is shown to have loa on his side to fight for him, but never really shows any true competence for strategy.

You mispelled Tyrande there, who have indeed been saved multiple times by her goddess. The Loa aren't that kind and actually tested Vol'jin throughout Shadows of the Horde rather than truly help him.

And yeah, single-handely organizing the defense of a monastery defended by 31 people against an army of 500 Zandalari and tactically placing traps to undermine their march on a psychological level (it's literally described that way in the novel) is indeed not strategical at all. It's surely tons of times better compared to Tyrande's usual strategy to just rush head on and getting rekted, both displayed in Wolfheart and Stormrage.

Here you are saying that listening to advice is not good strategy, she routed the horde and pushed them all the way into the temple, and then instead of sending her sentinels in like she initially wanted to do, she listened to Varian's advice. Listening to good advice is smart, but your obvious bias against her is saying that listening to advice is stupid, just like you are said striking at the opportune moment is stupid.

To propose an argument as silly as this I would argue that, rather, is your own bias for her that's obviously showing.

Listening to good advice is wise at most, not "strategical", not to mention that even claiming that "Tyrande wisely listened the advice" is an hysterical stretching, considered how she couldn't stop bitching for the entirety of the scenario, constantly complaining about Varian wasting time, being tentative, hey they mock us, why not strike now and yadda yadda. Only when Varian proved with undeniable facts that his strategy was the correct one Tyrande acknowledged Varian's merits.

Besides, even pretending Tyrande "wisely listened" Varian's advice, to consider Tyrande an actual strategist she should have came up with that strategy herself. You're clumsily misuing words in a rather desperate attempt to give her more credit than she deserves.

She was assaulting Org from the other side, the alliance assaulted from the sea, horde assaulted from the front and the night elves assaulted from the forest.

She wasn't assaulting a damn thing from the other side, otherwise she would have sticked to that side and we would have met her inside the city. The True Horde's attention was clearly all on the Horde's rebellion, the army on which they released the fucking Iron Juggernaut and pulled the attention of the leader of Orgrimmar's defenses, unless you want me to believe that Tyrande and her Sentinel army weren't even worthy of Nazgrim's attention or any considerable deploying of troops, which seems odd to say the least. That's even more evident from the fact that Tyrande will specifically engage with the Kor'kron all coming out of the main gate.

But here you are trying to say striking at the opportune time is stupid, that's smart strategy.

That's convenience, not "smart strategy". There's nothing particularly brilliant in waiting for others to do the tough job and then intervene when the literal only threat remained out of Orgrimmar's walls was dealt with. To look like a "smart strategist" Tyrande should have done something significant earlier.

Also assaulting a wall with siege weapons is smart as opposed to sending your men to die uselessly without hope of breaching the wall.

Oh yeah, bringing siege weapons to tear a gate apart needs deep strategical thinking. No doubt. Guess what, that was the whole point of those siege weapons in Razor Hill too. And guess another thing, they couldn't breach shit because the Iron Juggernaut was there blocking the way. But how Tyrande's siege weapons were able to do that? It may have something to do with this certain Iron Juggernaut not being there anymore? Nah, probably not. It's clearly just my bias.

But regardless it's been interesting seeing how many hoops people who don't like tyrande will jump through to say everything she does is stupid, while defending other stupid decisions from leaders they like. I mean vol'jin's attack head on into the wall with no chance was stupider than Tyrande trying to charge head on into the open temple, and she didn't even do that but you will gloss over Vol'jin doing a far stupider move and just throwing the lives of his troops away needlessly.

Yeah yeah, it's all because of the unjustified hatred against poor Tyrande. It's not like that what I argued about actually regarded flat out lies, the ridiculous notion that listening to someone's advice is equivalent to be keen strategists (let alone the fact that Tyrande actually listened shit and complained all the time) or either ignored or twisted circumstances, merely adding that Vol'jin is indeed showed to be a competent strategist in his novel where Tyrande, in all her novels, is never showed to shine on that field either.

Still, if you really want to compare the temple and siege circumstances (once again pretending that Tyrande actually listened anything in her scenario) I could argue that even though Vol'jin repeatedly sending warriors against the Iron Juggernaut was far from being something even remotely brilliant, it's worth mentioning that the siege was motivated by a real urgency, given Garrosh's shenanigans with the power of a fucking Old God and all the shit he was cooking up in the Underhold, clearly implied by Vol'jin's words; on the other hand, Tyrande's reasons to rush ahead were...well, nonexistent, apart her personal belief that Varian was stupid for "wasting time" over an actual strategy.

[Toppy]

They were practically naked, with spears going up against a giant robot. They were not equpped to fight that, and them dying instantly shows that.

And Night Elves use giant unthrowable shruikens as melee weapons and also fight with their torso half uncovered, what of it

They had no siege weapons, and he was just going to continue to throw his soldiers at the wall uselessly. His plan was obviously a failure, when you think he is displaying anything but incompetence here and disregard for the lives of his troops it shows an extreme bias.

Blatantly false, there are very, very, clearly Horde siege weapons at SoO. Giant ones. Both Orcish and Troll if I remember rightly, Troll for sure.

Tyrande also fought through Ashenvale up to the gates of Orgrimmar, and brought siege weapons to take down the gates. Here though you are saying waiting for the critical moment to strike is not good strategy, while sending your men in to die uselessly against a robot is good.

Due to battlefield barrens, Ashenvale and Barrens was already cleared out by the time she came, so not really. That was the entire point of battlefield barrens. And it was largely a Horde operation with Alliance: SI:7 specifically, giving some small support.

Vol'jin is never particularly shown to be a keen strategist at all, he is shown to have loa on his side to fight for him, but never really shows any true competence for strategy.

Shadow of the Horde he is portrayed as a skilled strategist. His playing dead was also quiet smart in MoP.

And are you saying Tyrande doesn't let Elune do the fighting for her?

Here you are saying that listening to advice is not good strategy, she routed the horde and pushed them all the way into the temple, and then instead of sending her sentinels in like she initially wanted to do, she listened to Varian's advice. Listening to good advice is smart, but your obvious bias against her is saying that listening to advice is stupid, just like you are said striking at the opportune moment is stupid.

Given her idea was pants on head retarded and she needed both Varian AND Chi-ji telling her to slow the fuck down? This isnt a point in her favor.

She was assaulting Org from the other side, the alliance assaulted from the sea, horde assaulted from the front and the night elves assaulted from the forest. But here you are trying to say striking at the opportune time is stupid, that's smart strategy. Also assaulting a wall with siege weapons is smart as opposed to sending your men to die uselessly without hope of breaching the wall.

See above.

But regardless it's been interesting seeing how many hoops people who don't like tyrande will jump through to say everything she does is stupid, while defending other stupid decisions from leaders they like. I mean vol'jin's attack head on into the wall with no chance was stupider than Tyrande trying to charge head on into the open temple, and she didn't even do that but you will gloss over Vol'jin doing a far stupider move and just throwing the lives of his troops away needlessly.

The entirety of Battlefield Barrens was Vol'Jin preparing. It was an entire patch.

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"Fought through" what, exactly? Because last time I checked the Alliance crushed the Horde offensive in Ashenvale and it's pretty obvious that the relevant bulk of Garrosh's forces were all around Durotar/the Barrens/Orgrimmar, the places he obviously intended to defend from "the armies of the world" he pulled to his fortress.

Again, I never talked about grand strategy, only about the nature of circumstances. Vol'jin's rebellion was indeed leading the frontline and had no choice but to keep Garrosh occupied, one way or another. No one else was there apart them.

Critical moment? Tyrande literally waited for others to do the tough job. Striking at a "critical moment" would have meant flanking the Iron Juggernaut and speed its demise up.

A lot of the Nelf community refuses to acknowledge that Ashenvale was an Alliance victory since blizzard refuses to change the entire zone to reflect that.

[Zulkhan]

And Night Elves use giant unthrowable shruikens as melee weapons and also fight with their torso half uncovered, what of it

Besides, the Darkspear warriors who assaulted that giant robot were indeed fittingly equipped to assault, well, a giant robot: they wore full plate, an helm and a shield. There's really nothing more you can give to a warrior without severely hindering his movements.

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A lot of the Nelf community refuses to acknowledge that Ashenvale was an Alliance victory since blizzard refuses to change the entire zone to reflect that.

Ah yes, the good old "I still see Horde quest givers so my victory doesn't exist".

[Toppy]

Besides, the Darkspear warriors who assaulted that giant robot were indeed fittingly equipped to assault, well, a giant robot: they wore full plate, an helm and a shield. There's really nothing more you can give to a warrior without severely hindering his movements.

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Ah yes, the good old "I still see Horde quest givers so my victory doesn't exist".

To be fair you would only know its an Alliance victory if you do the zone and everyone knows that blizzard cant write so there's no point in doing anything but glancing at it.

Do remember, Legion doesn't count for Night Elf focus, nor does Hyjal since Cenarion Circle are dirty neutrals that have nothing to do with the Night Elves and Jarod's a guy so he doesn't count as a cool Night Elf character.

The only time Night Elf stuff counts as being well done is if its only women, the Night Elves win without struggle, only elune magic is involved and they decimate the Horde entirely.

[Every Pwny]

Blatantly false, there are very, very, clearly Horde siege weapons at SoO. Giant ones. Both Orcish and Troll if I remember rightly, Troll for sure.

Again, the siege weapons were destroyed. Nazgrim implies it, blatantly. Something something giant robot something.

I wonder which it is! Either way neither makes him look good. Then he just sends his men in to die and can't siege the wall, in a show of the most idiotic charge and tactic we've ever seen. They had no hope of winning or breeching the gate and he just send them to die. Obviously here we never seen a tactic so blatantly incompetent. This was to illustrate more than every commander makes incompetent decisions, and Vol'jin's decision here was far more incompetent than Tyrande listening to Varian in MoP which you and toppy like to point to.

The bit of mine you just quoted said nothing about competence or incompetence. I called out a lie, which is exactly what it was. A plan meant to assault Orgrimmar with no siege weapons never existed, apart in your own imagination..

It's not a lie, he assaulted the gate and the iron juggernaut with ground troops. His charge was extremely stupid and useless, the only thing it did was kill his troops needlessly.

"Fought through" what, exactly? Because last time I checked the Alliance crushed the Horde offensive in Ashenvale and it's pretty obvious that the relevant bulk of Garrosh's forces were all around Durotar/the Barrens/Orgrimmar, the places he obviously intended to defend from "the armies of the world" he pulled to his fortress.

Again, I never talked about grand strategy, only about the nature of circumstances. Vol'jin's rebellion was indeed leading the frontline and had no choice but to keep Garrosh occupied, one way or another. No one else was there apart them.

Critical moment? Tyrande literally waited for others to do the tough job. Striking at a "critical moment" would have meant flanking the Iron Juggernaut and speed its demise up.

So Garrosh is already locked and turtling up in Org, Vol'jin was doing nothing by sacrificing his troops. He was fighting to get to the gate, the alliance were pushing them off the docks and the night elves are assaulting Org from the other side. Vol'jin wasn't keeping them occupied there was no real threat of them pouring out and overwhelming anything, they were sealing themselves in and he couldn't get passed the iron juggernaut and had no siege weapons as you said. He assualts the gate with ground troops.

Yes, Tyrande waits until the iron juggernaught is down, destroys the gates and clears out the guards that attempt to defend the now destroyed door. I don't know why you think her job there was meaningless when that was the only way they were going to breech the gate.

You mispelled Tyrande there, who have indeed been saved multiple times by her goddess. The Loa aren't that kind and actually tested Vol'jin throughout Shadows of the Horde rather than truly help him.

And yeah, single-handely organizing the defense of a monastery defended by 31 people against an army of 500 Zandalari and tactically placing traps to undermine their march on a psychological level (it's literally described that way in the novel) is indeed not strategical at all. It's surely tons of times better compared to Tyrande's usual strategy to just rush head on and getting rekted, both displayed in Wolfheart and Stormrage.

He didn't really organize anything, he just had some super troops there, I believe he was also punching through their armor with his fist. Nothing there demonstrated he was competent at strategy, he and the two others with him were just overpowered. In wolfheart the night elves were winning, the only thing they didn't account for were the unstoppable magnataur garrosh brought and they had no idea about, you should definitely not leave out the super weapon the horde needed to fight in Ashenvale that only the worgen were able to fight. Nothing she did there was particularly incompetent, not like throwing the lives of your troops away for no reason.

To propose an argument as silly as this I would argue that, rather, is your own bias for her that's obviously showing.

Listening to good advice is wise at most, not "strategical", not to mention that even claiming that "Tyrande wisely listened the advice" is an hysterical stretching, considered how she couldn't stop bitching for the entirety of the scenario, constantly complaining about Varian wasting time, being tentative, hey they mock us, why not strike now and yadda yadda. Only when Varian proved with undeniable facts that his strategy was the correct one Tyrande acknowledged Varian's merits.

Besides, even pretending Tyrande "wisely listened" Varian's advice, to consider Tyrande an actual strategist she should have came up with that strategy herself. You're clumsily misuing words in a rather desperate attempt to give her more credit than she deserves.

Listening to good advice is not incompetence, in the MoP scenario she routes the horde and forces them into the temple, then instead of going with her plan she goes with Varian's plan. If she didn't listen to Varian though she would have sent her troops in, so trying to pretend she didn't listen is idiotic as well. Regardless of how you try to downplay it, she did indeed listen to Varian's advice, for the best result, despite her "bitching".

That's convenience, not "smart strategy". There's nothing particularly brilliant in waiting for others to do the tough job and then intervene when the literal only threat remained out of Orgrimmar's walls was dealt with. To look like a "smart strategist" Tyrande should have done something significant earlier.

Striking at the opportune time is smart strategy. But look you are trying to defend Vol'jin sending in his troops to die uselessly, and without siege weapons to take out the gate, while you are simultaneously bashing Tyrande for wanting to go into the temple immediately, basically sending her troops in to suffer more causalities than needed, but then also bashing her for listening to Varian because she was bitching about it. Vol'jin shows massive incompetence here, Tyrande's initial plan wasn't the best either but she listens to Varian still for the best result.

Oh yeah, bringing siege weapons to tear a gate apart needs deep strategical thinking. No doubt. Guess what, that was the whole point of those siege weapons in Razor Hill too. And guess another thing, they couldn't breach shit because the Iron Juggernaut was there blocking the way. But how Tyrande's siege weapons were able to do that? It may have something to do with this certain Iron Juggernaut not being there anymore? Nah, probably not. It's clearly just my bias.

Assaulting a gate with siege weapons is better strategy than sending in troops that have no hope of breaching a gate and getting them all killed for no gain. Vol'jin did nothing against the iron juggernaut it was the horde/alliance reinforcements from the beach that took out the juggernaut. Vol'jin just made sure to send his troops in to die ahead of time like the brilliant strategist you are claiming he is.

Yeah yeah, it's all because of the unjustified hatred against poor Tyrande. It's not like that what I argued about actually regarded flat out lies, the ridiculous notion that listening to someone's advice is equivalent to be keen strategists (let alone the fact that Tyrande actually listened shit and complained all the time) or either ignored or twisted circumstances, merely adding that Vol'jin is indeed showed to be a competent strategist in his novel where Tyrande, in all her novels, is never showed to shine on that field either.

Still, if you really want to compare the temple and siege circumstances (once again pretending that Tyrande actually listened anything in her scenario) I could argue that even though Vol'jin repeatedly sending warriors against the Iron Juggernaut was far from being something even remotely brilliant, it's worth mentioning that the siege was motivated by a real urgency, given Garrosh's shenanigans with the power of a fucking Old God and all the shit he was cooking up in the Underhold, clearly implied by Vol'jin's words; on the other hand, Tyrande's reasons to rush ahead were...well, nonexistent, apart her personal belief that Varian was stupid for "wasting time" over an actual strategy.

Listening to advice is good, it doesn't show incompetence. She pushes the horde into the temple and instead of going with her initial plan, goes with Varian's. You try to turn it around saying it's incompetence, when it's the opposite. But then you justify Vol'jin sending his troops in to die with no hope of breaching gate, pretty much the plan Tyrande was thinking about at the temple, except the temple was open and not fortified like Org was, and calling it competence.

The whole point of this is to show that a lot of characters are not good strategists and are massively incompetent. But here with Tyrande you can take two similar strategies Tyrande pushing the horde into the temple and wanting to go in, but going with Varian's plan, then Vol'jin's pushing up to the gates of Org and then sending his troops straight in to die for no reason, and somehow claim Vol'jin is more competent here than Tyrande was in that scenario. It's obviously extreme bias that you can't really see yourself doing, I'm not claiming she is a brilliant strategist, but she is not incompetent like you are claiming.

Given her idea was pants on head retarded and she needed both Varian AND Chi-ji telling her to slow the fuck down? This isnt a point in her favor.

Yes, and as I said above, you claiming Vol'jin is a competent strategist when he just sends his men in to die in a head on assault against gates they couldn't breach is competent. This is the point, you can't really claim Tyrande wanting to charge into an open temple after pushing the horde there and surrounding them yet going with Varian's plan is less competent than Vol'jin throwing his men zapp branigan style hoping the giant robot would reach it's preset kill limit with a sealed gate they couldn't breach. It's almost the exact same scenario except Tyrande's had more hope of succeeding because they didn't need siege weapons.

[Toppy]

I wonder which it is! Either way neither makes him look good. Then he just sends his men in to die and can't siege the wall, in a show of the most idiotic charge and tactic we've ever seen. They had no hope of winning or breeching the gate and he just send them to die. Obviously here we never seen a tactic so blatantly incompetent. This was to illustrate more than every commander makes incompetent decisions, and Vol'jin's decision here was far more incompetent than Tyrande listening to Varian in MoP which you and toppy like to point to.



It's not a lie, he assaulted the gate and the iron juggernaut with ground troops. His charge was extremely stupid and useless, the only thing it did was kill his troops needlessly.

Its both, there are siege weapons there. I didnt say what their state was in, but Vol'Jin had very clearly came with them. Run the raid.

Also, wasn't Tyrande's spark of brillaince in MoP to charge a heavily fortified Orcish emplacement with her lightly armored skirmish troops?

So Garrosh is already locked and turtling up in Org, Vol'jin was doing nothing by sacrificing his troops. He was fighting to get to the gate, the alliance were pushing them off the docks and the night elves are assaulting Org from the other side. Vol'jin wasn't keeping them occupied there was no real threat of them pouring out and overwhelming anything, they were sealing themselves in and he couldn't get passed the iron juggernaut and had no siege weapons as you said. He assualts the gate with ground troops.

Yes, Tyrande waits until the iron juggernaught is down, destroys the gates and clears out the guards that attempt to defend the now destroyed door. I don't know why you think her job there was meaningless when that was the only way they were going to breech the gate.

You were trying to make Tyrande being there as some big deal. It wasn't. The path to Orgrimmar had been cleared by SI:7 and the Horde. Not by Tyrande or her own forces.

He didn't really organize anything, he just had some super troops there, I believe he was also punching through their armor with his fist. Nothing there demonstrated he was competent at strategy, he and the two others with him were just overpowered. In wolfheart the night elves were winning, the only thing they didn't account for were the unstoppable magnataur garrosh brought and they had no idea about, you should definitely not leave out the super weapon the horde needed to fight in Ashenvale that only the worgen were able to fight. Nothing she did there was particularly incompetent, not like throwing the lives of your troops away for no reason.

The point is she has never done -anything-. Vol'Jin in Shadow and Battlefield Barrens at least had planned things. Tyrande, from what we've seen, never has and needs to be restrained from doing stupid stuff.

Except when she blew up that bridge she stood on of course. Or her wholesale slaughter of other night elves and nature spirits in WC3.

Listening to good advice is not incompetence, in the MoP scenario she routes the horde and forces them into the temple, then instead of going with her plan she goes with Varian's plan. If she didn't listen to Varian though she would have sent her troops in, so trying to pretend she didn't listen is idiotic as well. Regardless of how you try to downplay it, she did indeed listen to Varian's advice, for the best result, despite her "bitching".

Point is, her plan was incredibly stupid. Sure she backed down from it, but she needed to be called off. Her original plan was just laughably bad is the big point here that you dont seem to get.

You're perfectly fine with mentioning Vol'Jin using troops to take down the Juggernaught, but seem to deny that Tyrande was going to do the EXACT SAME THING at the Crane Temple before someone slapped her hand away and went "Stop it, thats fucking stupid.". At least Vol'Jin had the excuse of not knowing what the thing was capable of, Tyrande knew what she was dealing with.

You're just blatantly denying anything being put forth before you and deflecting with terrible examples that don't hold up. Anything in Vol'Jins favor doesnt count, anything against Tyrande is clearly just Horde fans bitching.

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And before you go off about how I just prefer Horde and hate Tyrande.

I again like Tyrande, but I'm not going to lie to myself and say she's a smart person.

[therealbowser]

The Nightborne are, as is in theme with their entire culture, ungrateful. In their eyes, the Alliance -- who did a lot more than the blood elves -- did so out of obligation for their own needs, not for them specifically as they feel the blood elves did (and whether or not they did primarily for the nightborne remains to be seen... it's doubtful).

I think Tyrande's character needs work but this scene doesn't really make me feel like she's a terrible person. I thought the story had occurred in person, but in the quest, it's a comment that was made before they conquered the Nighthold. Whether or not it was for selfish reasons, they played a major role in freeing their people, and the nightborne responded with apathy since in one special case the night elves were slightly unfriendly to them.

At first I was really upset about Tyrande, but once I saw the context, it's actually Thalyssra I'm bugged by. She is being portrayed as a rather shallow character, but perhaps this is what she always was. The only Allaince character I am bugged by due to this scenario is Alleria, because she portrayed the diplomatic prowess of a gnoll in that same scenario. She should know better.