Possible Antorus nerfs?

[Revelations 45]

The fact that you can do this fight with 4 tanks 5 healers proves how lightly tuned it is. I don't understand the need for nerfs.

[Hypasonic]

The fact that you can do this fight with 4 tanks 5 healers proves how lightly tuned it is. I don't understand the need for nerfs.

The fight isn't "hard" anymore, its just down right annoying. Every fight gets easier with gear, aggramar doesn't as you have to stop dps, or run with more healers/tanks than normal which negates the upgrades your group gets from farming each week and turns it into the same boss we fought in the first weeks of release.

[Revelations 45]

The fight isn't "hard" anymore,

Exactly why nerfs aren't needed.

[T87]

The fact that you can do this fight with 4 tanks 5 healers proves how lightly tuned it is. I don't understand the need for nerfs.

Nerfs aren't aimed towards guilds that have already killed the bosses. Guilds that have killed Argus multiple times now don't need nerfs. They just want them to make it a more relaxed clear every week. Basically, they want to steamroll the place like they do Mythic Gul'dan now. Yah, Blizzard is definitely thinking about these people when they implement nerfs.

Sure, you can do Aggramar with 9 slots dedicated to non-dps, but what about the guilds that haven't killed it? Guilds that haven't killed Aggramar or Argus at this point are limited by the skill level of their players. These players are not as good as those of us that have killed these bosses. Do you think the guilds that 3 healed Argus look down upon guilds struggling to 4 heal it? No, any reasonable person knows that those players just aren't as good as they are. These are the players that Blizzard aims the nerfs towards. In my opinion, any guild that's been progressing the entire tier and is just now getting to Aggramar, is not going to kill him without nerfs, much less Argus. Blizzard always helps these guilds out the most with the nerfs.

As to what exactly the nerfs will be, they're always related to what guilds are struggling with. What are guilds struggling with on Aggramar? The moment second intermission starts. They're probably losing people to wakes, or someone gets knocked off. Okay, so reduce wake damage, or make your body teleport back to the platform on death. Then there's phase 3, it's chaotic even when guilds go back after Argus for their rekill. So what's the struggle there? There's wakes from Flares, these are easy to dodge for you and I, but what about these players? The nerf to wake damage suddenly makes even more sense. And then the add management is much harder than the previous phases, and that's where two Blood DKs trivialize the fight. Well, making Flare's not empower the adds will make it so the second Blood DK isn't as important anymore. Yah, that's a huge nerf, but the concept of the fight is still the same. Blizzard typically doesn't change the concept, they want it to remain the same, just easier. And lastly, there's the randomness of the Ember's energy. They could simply reduce the amount of adds that start with higher energy.

These are all simple changes, but they're big nerfs that don't change the concept of the fight, which is what these guilds need.

Now you've gotta consider Argus. When you think of Argus individually, I think he's well tuned. Gear makes an enormous difference on him. He was difficult to kill the first time, but rekills feel good on him. But think about the guilds that 3-4 weeks from now (if the nerfs happened next week) have just killed Aggramar. Are they going to be able to kill Argus in time in his current state? Probably not. So he's going to need some big changes as well. Phase 1 requires the most focus of the entire fight. Phase 2 is very easy. Phase 3 is overwhelming at first, but once you find the rhythm, you see progress fast. Phase 3's all about seeing it consistently. And then the whole fight has Fear/Rage management. If the fight starts with a single Fear, with no Rage, that simplifies that aspect of the fight. That just helps the learning process. Now the best thing to do to make phase 1 easier on these guilds is to make Cone of Death's cast time longer. Even a 1/2 second goes a long ways there. Maybe reduce Soulblights damage as well, but Soulblights only a problem during Argus' rage casts, so nerfing that will also help in phase 3. So keep Soulblight the same damage, but reduce the amount of damage that Tortured Rage does. Now you won't lose people to Rage + Soulblight + Cone combo. I think that makes phase 1 drastically easier, while still keeping the concept the same. Phase 2, a simple Soulbomb damage nerf would remove what little difficulty there is in that phase. Probably not needed, but I could see it happening. Now Phase 3, all we'll see is most likely Chains damage (both the personal DoT, and the raid-wide DoT on break), and the amount of damage the orbs you gotta soak do, just to make it possible for anyone to soak them (something like 3-4m damage). This would remove the need for a third tank as well. With phase 3 having less raid damage from both his Tortured Rage, and the Chains, keeping people alive becomes much easier. Then there's the obvious health nerf, which will almost surely happen, making any sort of DPS check in both Phase 1 and Phase 3 non-existent.

I doubt many people read any of this, and I could be completely wrong on all of it, but I just wanted to share my opinion for the people that did read it.

[psyquest]

Nerfs aren't aimed towards guilds that have already killed the bosses. Guilds that have killed Argus multiple times now don't need nerfs. They just want them to make it a more relaxed clear every week. Basically, they want to steamroll the place like they do Mythic Gul'dan now. Yah, Blizzard is definitely thinking about these people when they implement nerfs.

Sure, you can do Aggramar with 9 slots dedicated to non-dps, but what about the guilds that haven't killed it? Guilds that haven't killed Aggramar or Argus at this point are limited by the skill level of their players. These players are not as good as those of us that have killed these bosses. Do you think the guilds that 3 healed Argus look down upon guilds struggling to 4 heal it? No, any reasonable person knows that those players just aren't as good as they are. These are the players that Blizzard aims the nerfs towards. In my opinion, any guild that's been progressing the entire tier and is just now getting to Aggramar, is not going to kill him without nerfs, much less Argus. Blizzard always helps these guilds out the most with the nerfs.

As to what exactly the nerfs will be, they're always related to what guilds are struggling with. What are guilds struggling with on Aggramar? The moment second intermission starts. They're probably losing people to wakes, or someone gets knocked off. Okay, so reduce wake damage, or make your body teleport back to the platform on death. Then there's phase 3, it's chaotic even when guilds go back after Argus for their rekill. So what's the struggle there? There's wakes from Flares, these are easy to dodge for you and I, but what about these players? The nerf to wake damage suddenly makes even more sense. And then the add management is much harder than the previous phases, and that's where two Blood DKs trivialize the fight. Well, making Flare's not empower the adds will make it so the second Blood DK isn't as important anymore. Yah, that's a huge nerf, but the concept of the fight is still the same. Blizzard typically doesn't change the concept, they want it to remain the same, just easier. And lastly, there's the randomness of the Ember's energy. They could simply reduce the amount of adds that start with higher energy.

These are all simple changes, but they're big nerfs that don't change the concept of the fight, which is what these guilds need.

Now you've gotta consider Argus. When you think of Argus individually, I think he's well tuned. Gear makes an enormous difference on him. He was difficult to kill the first time, but rekills feel good on him. But think about the guilds that 3-4 weeks from now (if the nerfs happened next week) have just killed Aggramar. Are they going to be able to kill Argus in time in his current state? Probably not. So he's going to need some big changes as well. Phase 1 requires the most focus of the entire fight. Phase 2 is very easy. Phase 3 is overwhelming at first, but once you find the rhythm, you see progress fast. Phase 3's all about seeing it consistently. And then the whole fight has Fear/Rage management. If the fight starts with a single Fear, with no Rage, that simplifies that aspect of the fight. That just helps the learning process. Now the best thing to do to make phase 1 easier on these guilds is to make Cone of Death's cast time longer. Even a 1/2 second goes a long ways there. Maybe reduce Soulblights damage as well, but Soulblights only a problem during Argus' rage casts, so nerfing that will also help in phase 3. So keep Soulblight the same damage, but reduce the amount of damage that Tortured Rage does. Now you won't lose people to Rage + Soulblight + Cone combo. I think that makes phase 1 drastically easier, while still keeping the concept the same. Phase 2, a simple Soulbomb damage nerf would remove what little difficulty there is in that phase. Probably not needed, but I could see it happening. Now Phase 3, all we'll see is most likely Chains damage (both the personal DoT, and the raid-wide DoT on break), and the amount of damage the orbs you gotta soak do, just to make it possible for anyone to soak them (something like 3-4m damage). This would remove the need for a third tank as well. With phase 3 having less raid damage from both his Tortured Rage, and the Chains, keeping people alive becomes much easier. Then there's the obvious health nerf, which will almost surely happen, making any sort of DPS check in both Phase 1 and Phase 3 non-existent.

I doubt many people read any of this, and I could be completely wrong on all of it, but I just wanted to share my opinion for the people that did read it.

Agree totally with you there. nice write up of what blizzard should do.

[Jaigar]

Nerfs aren't aimed towards guilds that have already killed the bosses. Guilds that have killed Argus multiple times now don't need nerfs. They just want them to make it a more relaxed clear every week. Basically, they want to steamroll the place like they do Mythic Gul'dan now. Yah, Blizzard is definitely thinking about these people when they implement nerfs.

Sure, you can do Aggramar with 9 slots dedicated to non-dps, but what about the guilds that haven't killed it? Guilds that haven't killed Aggramar or Argus at this point are limited by the skill level of their players. These players are not as good as those of us that have killed these bosses. Do you think the guilds that 3 healed Argus look down upon guilds struggling to 4 heal it? No, any reasonable person knows that those players just aren't as good as they are. These are the players that Blizzard aims the nerfs towards. In my opinion, any guild that's been progressing the entire tier and is just now getting to Aggramar, is not going to kill him without nerfs, much less Argus. Blizzard always helps these guilds out the most with the nerfs.

As to what exactly the nerfs will be, they're always related to what guilds are struggling with. What are guilds struggling with on Aggramar? The moment second intermission starts. They're probably losing people to wakes, or someone gets knocked off. Okay, so reduce wake damage, or make your body teleport back to the platform on death. Then there's phase 3, it's chaotic even when guilds go back after Argus for their rekill. So what's the struggle there? There's wakes from Flares, these are easy to dodge for you and I, but what about these players? The nerf to wake damage suddenly makes even more sense. And then the add management is much harder than the previous phases, and that's where two Blood DKs trivialize the fight. Well, making Flare's not empower the adds will make it so the second Blood DK isn't as important anymore. Yah, that's a huge nerf, but the concept of the fight is still the same. Blizzard typically doesn't change the concept, they want it to remain the same, just easier. And lastly, there's the randomness of the Ember's energy. They could simply reduce the amount of adds that start with higher energy.

These are all simple changes, but they're big nerfs that don't change the concept of the fight, which is what these guilds need.

Now you've gotta consider Argus. When you think of Argus individually, I think he's well tuned. Gear makes an enormous difference on him. He was difficult to kill the first time, but rekills feel good on him. But think about the guilds that 3-4 weeks from now (if the nerfs happened next week) have just killed Aggramar. Are they going to be able to kill Argus in time in his current state? Probably not. So he's going to need some big changes as well. Phase 1 requires the most focus of the entire fight. Phase 2 is very easy. Phase 3 is overwhelming at first, but once you find the rhythm, you see progress fast. Phase 3's all about seeing it consistently. And then the whole fight has Fear/Rage management. If the fight starts with a single Fear, with no Rage, that simplifies that aspect of the fight. That just helps the learning process. Now the best thing to do to make phase 1 easier on these guilds is to make Cone of Death's cast time longer. Even a 1/2 second goes a long ways there. Maybe reduce Soulblights damage as well, but Soulblights only a problem during Argus' rage casts, so nerfing that will also help in phase 3. So keep Soulblight the same damage, but reduce the amount of damage that Tortured Rage does. Now you won't lose people to Rage + Soulblight + Cone combo. I think that makes phase 1 drastically easier, while still keeping the concept the same. Phase 2, a simple Soulbomb damage nerf would remove what little difficulty there is in that phase. Probably not needed, but I could see it happening. Now Phase 3, all we'll see is most likely Chains damage (both the personal DoT, and the raid-wide DoT on break), and the amount of damage the orbs you gotta soak do, just to make it possible for anyone to soak them (something like 3-4m damage). This would remove the need for a third tank as well. With phase 3 having less raid damage from both his Tortured Rage, and the Chains, keeping people alive becomes much easier. Then there's the obvious health nerf, which will almost surely happen, making any sort of DPS check in both Phase 1 and Phase 3 non-existent.

I doubt many people read any of this, and I could be completely wrong on all of it, but I just wanted to share my opinion for the people that did read it.

I'm raiding mythic with 2 guilds, and one of my guilds just got mythic aggramar down this week for the first time.

A big issue with guilds on our level is time. Time for progression vs. Farming. One of my guilds still on mythic aggramar only raids 6h a week, meaning if we do decide to farm, we get minimum time on progression. We don't struggle to the transition at all, but still struggle with the add management in phase 3. We also get a lot of wasted attempts to dumb deaths (people double soaking flame rends, getting greedy and not getting out of searing tempest, ranged missing rend soak, etc). I would say theres more wipes to these simple dumb things than there are to major flubs.

[Deleted]

The fact that you can do this fight with 4 tanks 5 healers proves how lightly tuned it is. I don't understand the need for nerfs.

Good thing you are not in charge if you think the only way to nerf a boss is to decrease its health pool, everyone already agrees this would only make the boss "harder". We simply want (anyone or combination, depending on how big of a nerf), reduced damage from add explosion, reduced DoT duration, reduced DoT damage, remove one add, reduce big adds AoE damage, etc. There are literally millions of small changes that would make this boss a breeze for farming guilds and easier for progressing guilds. The fight is not about hp/dps, its only about surviving.

11/11 - 2 months of farming.

[Gaidax]

The fight isn't "hard" anymore, its just down right annoying. Every fight gets easier with gear, aggramar doesn't as you have to stop dps, or run with more healers/tanks than normal which negates the upgrades your group gets from farming each week and turns it into the same boss we fought in the first weeks of release.

Agrammar does not get easier with DPS? What kind of nonsense is that?

The whole stop DPS part happens before 2nd transition/3rd phase - the part where Agrammar is easy as fuck, as you just have 1 clumped set of adds to handle, which is nothing hard seriously.

The whole difficulty is 3rd phase where you have additional adds spawning and you don't need to hold DPS there for fuck.

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That said I think it's about time it gets nerfed so shitters less motivated players have opportunity to progress.

I'd say should start with nerfing first 5 bosses or so and eventually get to to Agrammar and Argus.

[Revelations 45]

Good thing you are not in charge if you think the only way to nerf a boss is to decrease its health pool, everyone already agrees this would only make the boss "harder". We simply want (anyone or combination, depending on how big of a nerf), reduced damage from add explosion, reduced DoT duration, reduced DoT damage, remove one add, reduce big adds AoE damage, etc. There are literally millions of small changes that would make this boss a breeze for farming guilds and easier for progressing guilds. The fight is not about hp/dps, its only about surviving.

11/11 - 2 months of farming.

So you're asking for a complete revamp for the mechanics of the fight? hmm

[Deleted]

Agrammar does not get easier with DPS? What kind of nonsense is that?

The whole stop DPS part happens before 2nd transition/3rd phase - the part where Agrammar is easy as fuck, as you just have 1 clumped set of adds to handle, which is nothing hard seriously.

The whole difficulty is 3rd phase where you have additional adds spawning and you don't need to hold DPS there for fuck.

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That said I think it's about time it gets nerfed so shitters less motivated players have opportunity to progress.

I'd say should start with nerfing first 5 bosses or so and eventually get to to Agrammar and Argus.

How does he get easier with DPS? If you can even get to p3, you have More than enough dps to kill him in p3. The only thing that wipes you is damage taken from adds/combo (combo itself is harmless but with an add you can die). It's only a control & healing fight, where healers have an almost non-existing chance to fix a fuck up. Thats why it "needs" a nerf.

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So you're asking for a complete revamp for the mechanics of the fight? hmm

Scaling damage numbers would be a complete revamp for the mechanics of the fight? Damn, they really do revamp alot of bosses each tier then i assume. Why do you have to go for the extreme right away, just a simple number "fix" on ANY of the adds (big and small) damage in any way makes this boss 10 times easier.

[KaPe]

So you're asking for a complete revamp for the mechanics of the fight? hmm

You have a very strange definition of "complete revamp". Decreasing the add damage so a single mistake doesn't instantly kill half of the raid isn't "revamping". Having 3 charged adds instead of 4 just gives a little more breathing room and doesn't "revamp" the fight.

"Revamping" is more akin to forcing 2 outside phases on Il'gynoth, not just changing some numbers around.

[kamuimac]

I'm raiding mythic with 2 guilds, and one of my guilds just got mythic aggramar down this week for the first time.

A big issue with guilds on our level is time. Time for progression vs. Farming. One of my guilds still on mythic aggramar only raids 6h a week, meaning if we do decide to farm, we get minimum time on progression. We don't struggle to the transition at all, but still struggle with the add management in phase 3. We also get a lot of wasted attempts to dumb deaths (people double soaking flame rends, getting greedy and not getting out of searing tempest, ranged missing rend soak, etc). I would say theres more wipes to these simple dumb things than there are to major flubs.

and what are you farming so much unless gearing up is not as easy as people in other thread suggest it to be

are you claiming that people who say that they are 970 after 3 resets are lieing about how easy it is to gear up nowadays ?

at the end of day all people who are pro nerfs are from guilds that were not killing stuff in past before zone wide nerfs came whether it was zone wide buff/debuff or itlv bonuses from valor and now suffer heavily because of lack of that.

just be honest that its not the boss fault only players fault.

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I'd say should start with nerfing first 5 bosses or so and eventually get to to Agrammar and Argus.

they dont have to nerf that much though. just let people wear 1 extra legendary each week untill prepatch and it will get job done without anything else involved.

[Keltas]

I'm raiding mythic with 2 guilds, and one of my guilds just got mythic aggramar down this week for the first time.

A big issue with guilds on our level is time. Time for progression vs. Farming. One of my guilds still on mythic aggramar only raids 6h a week, meaning if we do decide to farm, we get minimum time on progression. We don't struggle to the transition at all, but still struggle with the add management in phase 3. We also get a lot of wasted attempts to dumb deaths (people double soaking flame rends, getting greedy and not getting out of searing tempest, ranged missing rend soak, etc). I would say theres more wipes to these simple dumb things than there are to major flubs.

My current guilds in like the same boat. I joined a 7h a week guild at the start of antorus after my guild fell apart in tomb, and we cleared to aggramar in like a month and a half?

We've been on aggramar since. Our problem originally was our blood DKs. We went through 5 different people doing the job and them all fucking it up horribly. When we didn't extend we would get 2~3 hours on aggramar a week, and when we did extend it was just hours of DKs fucking up constantly and occasional stupid deaths. We got it to <10% so many times and every time someone would grip a fucking add and blow everyone up, or flare the add pile because "muh dps".

After a couple months of this, we've had so much burnout we can't even field a raid to reclear properly. We had to 19 man the whole place this week. Our main tank quit, 2 healers took a "vacation", multiple dps just stopped logging in. Now the little bit of aggramar we can do is just fuckups in p1 and transition, to the point that I don't even want to log in anymore.

If DKs didn't dictate 90% of this fight, I bet a lot of guilds like mine would've killed it months ago before they burned out. Now I bet a lot of guilds are like mine, they burned out and there is literally nobody to recruit.

After typing this all up I realize my reply might not fit perfectly to your post, but meh. I really need to vent my frustration at this somewhere. I'm really sick of not clearing this place because of having to rely on one person not being garbage at their job.

[Gaidax]

How does he get easier with DPS? If you can even get to p3, you have More than enough dps to kill him in p3. The only thing that wipes you is damage taken from adds/combo (combo itself is harmless but with an add you can die). It's only a control & healing fight, where healers have an almost non-existing chance to fix a fuck up. Thats why it "needs" a nerf.

By the fact that you literally have to handle adds less time, potentially less adds and recover from severe fuckup by killing him faster. I'd think it would be obvious.

[Aphrel]

What are people's thoughts/predictions on Mythic Antorus nerfs?

I feel like the first nine bosses are in a decent position but I could see the last two being potentially nerfed since most guilds currently progressing them are having many hundreds of wipes and I know multiple guilds are disbanding due to burnout etc. Then again since it's the last tier a good amount of guilds will still get cutting edge because of how long it will be available.

Interested to hear if people think the raid will be nerfed, and how/when.

Im hoping nothing is nerfed and instead they raise the legendary limit for us so that in the end we can equip 10+ legendarys at the same time
that whould be awesome.

[Deleted]

By the fact that you literally have to handle adds less time, potentially less adds and recover from severe fuckup by killing him faster. I'd think it would be obvious.

Yes and no, the handling of adds is the exact same for any numbers of adds and any amout of time. Its not the fact that you have alot of adds Alive thats hard with the boss, its the getting rid part that needs a nerf.
Gearing is more or less done by now, p3 averages out to be about 2 minutes 30 seconds. For the sake of your argument lets pretend we can acheive +20% raid dps, that cuts p3 to 2 minutes. Empowered flares (that spawn the extra adds) comes out every minute meaning you would preciesly "skip" the last spawn of adds. That would be a small qol but nothing major, this is with a 20% increase, anything less than that and you still have to handle 2 sets of adds.
As mentioned before, Actually making the add do less dmg, impact/dot/timer would help a hundreds time more.

[kamuimac]

Im hoping nothing is nerfed and instead they raise the legendary limit for us so that in the end we can equip 10+ legendarys at the same time
that whould be awesome.

as a lfr scrub i have no idea on the fight but just wonder if just wearing prydaz by whole raid wouldnt help a lot with recovering there if people claim that its not dps issue .

[KaPe]

as a lfr scrub i have no idea on the fight but just wonder if just wearing prydaz by whole raid wouldnt help a lot with recovering there if people claim that its not dps issue .

Prydaz isn't bad, but quite often it just pads the numbers - absorbing damage that would have been easily healed through, while not helping during the actually dangerous parts. It won't really help if an additional Aggramar add gets through, since it's a huge burst of damage combined with a nasty dot.

Plus unless people somehow synchronize their Prydaz (-es? -i?), you'll just have some random player take less damage during random moment.

[Ophenia]

Im hoping nothing is nerfed and instead they raise the legendary limit for us so that in the end we can equip 10+ legendarys at the same time
that whould be awesome.

Honestly that's the most obvious change they could implement. But there are probably a few specs that would be completely overpowered with the third legendary (while some specs will deal with Prydaz because they don't have anything more interesting to equip), and I think it would definitely break the Mythic+ thing, unless they go through another round of balance of dungeons to avoid people casually running 20s without sweating

[Marrilaife]

We've been on aggramar since. Our problem originally was our blood DKs. We went through 5 different people doing the job and them all fucking it up horribly. When we didn't extend we would get 2~3 hours on aggramar a week, and when we did extend it was just hours of DKs fucking up constantly and occasional stupid deaths. We got it to <10% so many times and every time someone would grip a fucking add and blow everyone up, or flare the add pile because "muh dps".

After a couple months of this, we've had so much burnout we can't even field a raid to reclear properly. We had to 19 man the whole place this week. Our main tank quit, 2 healers took a "vacation", multiple dps just stopped logging in. Now the little bit of aggramar we can do is just fuckups in p1 and transition, to the point that I don't even want to log in anymore.

If DKs didn't dictate 90% of this fight, I bet a lot of guilds like mine would've killed it months ago before they burned out. Now I bet a lot of guilds are like mine, they burned out and there is literally nobody to recruit.

So yeah, we came to the point it's 4 months until BFA but guilds hit a wall. There are tons of guild stuck at Aggramar where the wipe count is racking up due to the fact mistake = wipe and these guilds are less skilled than the ones who are already past that boss. They also don't have endless patience to compensate, and they reached the gear plateau where they no longer gain meaningful upgrades. So they can't kill it in any reasonable timeframe, they can't endure lengthening that timeframe anymore, they can't outgear the fight any further, so they just quit, disband, "take a break until BFA", tbh that are some subs gone right there from people who "unsub until BFA" because their guild folded, while if they could reasonably finish the tier they'd stay for at least 1 more month, maybe more if they stick to farming mounts after the kill.

I've seen several 9/11 and 10/11 guilds fold on my server recently. The only good side is the 11/11 guilds can pick their best players to enhance the roster for BFA, but still lots of these players are tired, burnt out, and uninterested in continuing playing. I don't think this is good for game health, because diminishing the number of middle of the pack mythic guilds helps in the short run but hurts a lot in the long run, can even kill a smaller server, depleting its recruitment pool. Legion has been a "medium pop server killer" from mythic guild standpoint, some medium sized servers like Sylvanas EU or Frostmane EU are going downhill because Legion decimated mythic raiding scene with its design - short gaps between tiers, mandatory grinds, nerfs coming very late after guilds were stuck on "brick walls" for months, higher effort required to maintain offspec or alt, add it all up and you see people signing out.

You can't really expect from run the mill no. 2000 guild to play at the level of Method, or even world top 100. If you tell them "git gud or get out", they take the second option and unsub.