Trump Campaign: Treason and Conspiracy

[Louisa Bannon]

Let me describe some of Trump's pre-election activities: People from the Trump campaign enlisted the aid of Russian espionage agents to find or create dirt on Clinton and to otherwise manipulate the election.

Now consider the following laws pertaining to such activities in the United States:

18 U.S. Code § 371 - Conspiracy to commit offense or to defraud United States
If two or more persons conspire either to commit any offense against the United States, or to defraud the United States, or any agency thereof in any manner or for any purpose, and one or more of such persons do any act to effect the object of the conspiracy, each shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.

If, however, the offense, the commission of which is the object of the conspiracy, is a misdemeanor only, the punishment for such conspiracy shall not exceed the maximum punishment provided for such misdemeanor.
Source: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/371

U.S. Constitution, Article III, Section 3:
Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court.

The Congress shall have power to declare the punishment of treason, but no attainder of treason shall work corruption of blood, or forfeiture except during the life of the person attainted.
Source: https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/articleiii

18 U.S. Code § 2381 - Treason
Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.
Source: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2381

There are some that have had their focus on these questions for quite some time, as far back as 7 December 2017. See:
Donald Trump and Criminal Conspiracy Law
https://www.americanprogress.org/iss...onspiracy-law/

The article examines the activities of the Trump campaign under the RICO statute. I found that article engaging as it provides tons of food for thought on these matters.

And finally, this video in case you just don't feel like reading shit on the internet:

[Dendrek]

I'm no lawyer, and I absolutely am not a Trumpster, but I suspect the word "enemy" here refers an actively hostile entity. I don't think Putin or Russia are, legally, enemies of the US.

[Templar 331]

I'm no lawyer, and I absolutely am not a Trumpster, but I suspect the word "enemy" here refers an actively hostile entity. I don't think Putin or Russia are, legally, enemies of the US.

While I agree, I wonder if they could be considered an enemy since we do have sanctions levied against them.

[Machismo]

It's not to the point of Treason, but conspiracy and other crimes is a definite possibility.

[Louisa Bannon]

I'm no lawyer, and I absolutely am not a Trumpster, but I suspect the word "enemy" here refers an actively hostile entity. I don't think Putin or Russia are, legally, enemies of the US.

Yeah, treason might be a slight stretch - but can you honestly condone a candidate for U.S. president working with foreign nationals to undermine our own election process? Maybe that's not exactly an act of war, but "cyberattacks" on our voting system is a pretty fucking hostile act. I recognize that the U.S. has interfered with other countries in precisely this manner almost endlessly - but I don't think we are doing that to the nations we consider allies, we do it to people we see ourselves as needing to manage and control under what I guess is still some version of the Monroe Doctrine. Effectively that's a hostile act if not precisely an act of war.

There are many members of the GOP that are still in it to save the party, others have already jumped ship as they can no longer tolerate a continuing association with the clusterfuck the GOP has become. But others remain not only staunchly loyal, but almost to a point of madness. These folks need to understand that the GOP has been infiltrated and corrupted from within and when it all shakes out, I am not sure the GOP as we know it will survive having supported this president in the manner that they have.

We have this fool executive writing tweets about his son "wandering into legal jeopardy" and "I did not know about it" referencing the Trump Tower meeting. Well, I know Alex Trebek wasn't there so wandering into legal Jeopardy isn't a thing, just as collusion isn't a thing - it's just an ordinary crime around these parts to commit acts of conspiracy or have them done on your behalf by family members and campaign staffers. And Trump doesn't have to know all the details to be guilty because that's how conspiracy works.

I think what ultimately has to happen is that the GOP will have to prosecute an impeachment process because otherwise this will smear them too. The message has to be something like: we initially supported this guy because we thought he was clean if wildly eccentric, but he's dirty so we ourselves will prosecute him.

That's what guys like Mueller are trying for anyway.

[Spectral]

If two or more persons conspire either to commit any offense against the United States, or to defraud the United States, or any agency thereof in any manner or for any purpose, and one or more of such persons do any act to effect the object of the conspiracy, each shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.

Are you sure that Hillary Clinton and the DNC are actually synonymous with agencies of the United States?

[Dendrek]

Are you sure that Hillary Clinton and the DNC are actually synonymous with agencies of the United States?

They were defrauding the American public of a fair election. But yeah, sure. Make this about Hillary.

[Dontrike]

Are you sure that Hillary Clinton and the DNC are actually synonymous with agencies of the United States?

This has to do with Hillary.....how?

[Acidbaron]

Are you sure that Hillary Clinton and the DNC are actually synonymous with agencies of the United States?

Last i checked Trump went after dismantling most agencies, he made the EPA and FDA even more toothless, he calls into question the intelligence agency. It helps if you stop being partisan.

Do you call yourself a patriot? If yes why do you support attacks on your country and put party before everything?


As for the OP, i no longer try to apply logic or self respect when i try to position myself in understanding some people their commitment and devotion to political figureheads.

[Stormspellz]

Trump and the enablers in the republican party are guilty of treason, maybe not treason as defined by the constitution, but treason none the less.

[Stormspark]

Trump and the enablers in the republican party are guilty of treason, maybe not treason as defined by the constitution, but treason none the less.

I agree, but...the problem with actually CHARGING them with treason, is that treason charges according to the constitution have a bar that is deliberately almost impossible to reach. While I would LOVE to see them actually convicted of treason, it's extremely unlikely.

[Shkar]

18 U.S. Code § 2381 - Treason
Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.
Source: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2381

-SNIPPED-

While I am sure there is some legal code, universal or specific, that prevents applying it this way, I can't help but notice that the wording of this Code is not done in such a way to imply that it only prevents the holding of office AFTER being convicted. Off a (very) strict reading, Rules-As-Written style, if the Trump Tower meeting is found to have been treason by Trump himself, then he was not eligible to be president and his term is void. Can anyone point me to a law/standard that can trump this (pun unintended)? Or, is it actually an (improbable) way that his entire term could be undone?

[Polyxo]

Yeah, it wouldn't actually be treason, as that really only works where someone is working on behalf of an active military adversary. Even during the Cold War, spies for the Soviet Union weren't actually convicted of treason, because the US wasn't actually at war with the USSR.

[Deleted]

There is one <no-go> and this is when people should pay attention to lies.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

This has to do with Hillary.....how?

Because instead of just saying "I support a traitor because his party starts with R and that is all that matters to me" they say "but her emails"

You cannot blame the underlings. They were programmed this way and machines and tools should not be blamed. The masters that use them should be. I will only believe they are actually people once I see them think beyond the party line as the only line.

[Lenonis]

There is pretty much no way we're going to charge a sitting or recently sitting president with treason.

Conspiracy is also doubtful simply because placing Trump directly at fault is going to be tricky. Most of the work was done by his family and group of syncophants so he can maintain some level of plausible deniability.

Odds are likely given the high stakes there will be a combination of a deal struck along with the desire to make it stick. I see some combo of the following -- Trump being pressured to step down, which given the timing means not seek re-election. In doing so they wouldn't pursue the most serious charges and likely seek something like obstruction of justice. After a lot of media frenzy and "fake newz" and all that the dems will cave and agree to let Trump be pardoned.

I think those interested in justice are going to be sorely disappointed by how this all plans out. I think Trump ending up in jail is unlikely. We just don't send presidents to prison.

Probably the most sad thing of all is there is no small amount of people, many of whom post on these boards, who will go to their graves thinking Trump did nothing wrong, that this was all a deep state conspiracy, and that they were robbed of having Trump installed as president for life.

[Slant]

This has to do with Hillary.....how?

For the GOP Hillary is responsible for everything, including that sack of rice in China falling over.

[Fugus]

There is pretty much no way we're going to charge a sitting or recently sitting president with treason.

Conspiracy is also doubtful simply because placing Trump directly at fault is going to be tricky. Most of the work was done by his family and group of syncophants so he can maintain some level of plausible deniability.

Odds are likely given the high stakes there will be a combination of a deal struck along with the desire to make it stick. I see some combo of the following -- Trump being pressured to step down, which given the timing means not seek re-election. In doing so they wouldn't pursue the most serious charges and likely seek something like obstruction of justice. After a lot of media frenzy and "fake newz" and all that the dems will cave and agree to let Trump be pardoned.

I think those interested in justice are going to be sorely disappointed by how this all plans out. I think Trump ending up in jail is unlikely. We just don't send presidents to prison.

Probably the most sad thing of all is there is no small amount of people, many of whom post on these boards, who will go to their graves thinking Trump did nothing wrong, that this was all a deep state conspiracy, and that they were robbed of having Trump installed as president for life.

If it turns out like you say, then we have done nothing to reign in the abuses making it more likely that future presidents and officials will do the same or as the very least try and push that envelope to extremes again (just not quite as far) because they have been shown that the consequences for doing so is nothing but a slap on the wrist.

If they go with what you say, things are bound to get worse as they have shown to be nothing but a paper tiger. If they want anything to be taken care of, especially with what all has happened and if it turns out Trump has actively conspired with a foreign nation to screw with us as a nation, they will have to take action on this.

If found he did this stuff, they HAVE to come down on him and set the example along with all that have conspired with him that they can. Otherwise they are just setting the stage for it to happen again with the actions already being partially normalized by the populace and even more anger with us because of it.

[mvaliz]

Anybody else came in here expecting Skroe to be the author of this thread? ;P

[Stormspark]

Anybody else came in here expecting Skroe to be the author of this thread? ;P

Nah, Skroe knows that Trump isn't going to go down on treason charges.