Best thing about Classic = Suboptimal Specs are fine

[Delekii]

I raided up to 4Horsemen as Ret in Vanilla. Not all Guilds are full of elitists.

People were generally stupid and relatively bad at the game in vanilla. They aren't now.

[Deficineiron]

This exactly. All the people that played Classic have grown up and got family's/children now, and how can they possibly spend hours every night grinding for resist gear or doing attunements so they can raid. I feel like that's going to hurt Classic more than anything.

internally it is the single most persuasive argument for nerfing classic in all senses and maybe adding raid difficulties. I don't like it personally but the folks they want to bring back are too old for 20-hour weeks now vs then on average.

[Revamp Man]

The only bad thing about specs in classic
Yes you can bring shit specs it's fine...but you will never compete with the other specs and it requires extra effort to compete

Plus there will be retarded add ons made to determine spec and something similar to ilvl

The community will break it

[Alex86el]

They were in 2004/2005.

Good luck coming back into the game with many people having a 2019 elitist mentality. :/ They won't allow it.

a) this /\

b) most serious guild players played cookie cutter builds anyway.
freedom of choice was pretty much a myth about the old talents.



a good idea would be to have three spec panels (not like dual-spec)
but one spec for BGs, one for Instances, and one for the outside world.

[Thunderball]

Intensity is a must have? What planet do you live on?
Hellfire is an utter meme, Rain of Fire could very much have not existed and you are not using Soul Fire in PvE.
EDIT: I mean maybe if you somehow want to pad meters as much as you can and you hopefully have GREAT healers then you can probably do that.. it's just not recommended at all.

Secondly, MD/Ruin is just straight inferior to both SM/Ruin and DS/Ruin.
SM/Ruin being the highest DPS spec you could have on a warlock while still having okay utility, MD/Ruin being pretty much never a thing as a lot of fights will just wreck your pet in one way or another and it turns into a bigger hassle than it's worth by far.

Hellfire is used in every raid, same with Rain of Fire. Cataclysm and other stuff you might pick to replace it dont give you anything on the contrary. Of course we do have great healers.

Ofc MD/Ruin is inferior in damage, but warlock's problem on Horde is not damage, it's threat. Technically you have another option, going full T2, but it's harder to get and is going to inferior to MD/Ruin in Naxx. Obviously you dont have to have your imp out of PS.

[blooderduki]

Hellfire is used in every raid, same with Rain of Fire. Cataclysm and other stuff you might pick to replace it dont give you anything on the contrary. Of course we do have great healers.

Ofc MD/Ruin is inferior in damage, but warlock's problem on Horde is not damage, it's threat. Technically you have another option, going full T2, but it's harder to get and is going to inferior to MD/Ruin in Naxx. Obviously you dont have to have your imp out of PS.

^ speaking that Warriors are best Tanks ,when he even himself proves that Warrior threats are extremely poor and extremely subotpimal to Paladin.

Using Paladin tanks will never cause you threats issue ,so your damage dealers can enjoy their cakes on maximum dps , unless Warrior Noobs who can't even handle threats from MD/Ruin (laughing stock joke tanks unable to hold aggro) .

[Toppy]

People were generally stupid and relatively bad at the game in vanilla. They aren't now.

A bit of a false narrative that. People weren't that stupid at the raiding end. What has in reality happened is that people went to private servers which had buggy mechanics and are going "lol vanilla was so easy the old players were just bad". The most prevalent being the messed up resistances on private servers; and resistance was one of the most major walls to raiding, gear wise. Get rid of that and of course things get drastically easier.

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^ speaking that Warriors are best Tanks ,when he even himself proves that Warrior threats are extremely poor and extremely subotpimal to Paladin.

Using Paladin tanks will never cause you threats issue ,so your damage dealers can enjoy their cakes on maximum dps , unless Warrior Noobs who can't even handle threats from MD/Ruin (laughing stock joke tanks unable to hold aggro) .

Paladin's couldnt taunt and could only get enough +defense gear to tank if they neglected their spell power which would make it so they also subsequently couldn't hold aggro. They likewise had less mitigation:

Paladin had Holy Shield, which wasn't that great on single target
Bubbles which they couldn't use since it dropped threat and they had no taunt to get it back
Lay on Hands which got rid of ALL their mana which they needed to hold threat.


Warrior had a constant passive 10% damage mitigation with defensive stance.
Shield block
Demoralizing shout
Retaliation
Could become fear immune (major in vanilla)
Shield wall
Last Stand

The ONLY thing Paladins could tank well were trash mobs since those were the only ones that wouldn't crushing blow them to death. And while a Paladin would hold more aggro on trash mobs, trash wasn't all that important, Warrior could still do it just fine, and if the warrior had thunderfury then the Paladin was rendered useless.

[Whitedragon]

Yes that is an extremely rare occurence. Rare enough that you could assume they didn't exist.

Not that rare, since BfA's launch I've ran into 3 of them while pugging Uld

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The ONLY thing Paladins could tank well were trash mobs since those were the only ones that wouldn't crushing blow them to death. And while a Paladin would hold more aggro on trash mobs, trash wasn't all that important, Warrior could still do it just fine, and if the warrior had thunderfury then the Paladin was rendered useless.

That's funny I tanked all of MC, Ony, and some of BWL and some of AQ as a pally back in the day. Yes by the later bosses things got harry, due to lack of taunt. But Pallys could out clip warrior aggro fairly easily so it was more sitting just under him until you needed to be MT. admittedly my guild never really did Nax (Or finish AQ), but saying pallys couldn't tank is a lie.

[Delekii]

A bit of a false narrative that. People weren't that stupid at the raiding end. What has in reality happened is that people went to private servers which had buggy mechanics and are going "lol vanilla was so easy the old players were just bad". The most prevalent being the messed up resistances on private servers; and resistance was one of the most major walls to raiding, gear wise. Get rid of that and of course things get drastically easier.

No, get rid of that and things get drastically QUICKER.

Getting resistance gear isn't hard, it just takes a long time.

Vanilla raids were _incredibly_ easy from a mechanics point of view.

[valky94]

Try bringing a fire mage to Molten Core and say that again

or onyxia
/10char

[Antidrama]

You are so wrong mate. You can complete nearly any content with any class in current wow but people still only invite fotm classes.

And in classic there was no balance at all. You won't see any spot if you play a shit spec. Just get over it. It's the way it will be.

I invite people I like. I don't give a rat's ass what class/spec they play so long as the roles are covered.

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The ONLY thing Paladins could tank well were trash mobs since those were the only ones that wouldn't crushing blow them to death. And while a Paladin would hold more aggro on trash mobs, trash wasn't all that important, Warrior could still do it just fine, and if the warrior had thunderfury then the Paladin was rendered useless.

Ahhhh, the good old days of Thunder Clap only hitting 4 targets.

[Biomega]

Resistance was also somewhat overrated. Much of it was to compensate for bad healing and bad handling of mechanics. With competent players, resistance gear became largely meaningless. Even for the fights where it's a tremendous help (basically only Sapphiron, iirc?) you could just use one or two pieces and be fine.

Much of vanilla was just people not knowing wtf to do and/or not caring what people did. I myself got recruited into a top guild at the time during BWL, even though I had almost no real knowledge of my class; simply because they needed a healer. I didn't get decent at healing until well into Naxx, and it was only in TBC around Black Temple that I actually started looking into deep mechanics etc. rather than feelcrafting my way through.

You don't have that these days, both because there are a LOT more resources available and because people also expect you to use them. Gaming in general has become a lot more supported by outside materials almost no matter what you play, and people will be quick to identify and/or shun people who do not know what they are doing - the so-called "elitist" attitude people like to criticize. Personally, I don't view it as that bad a thing in principle, since in any game where others are relying on your performance (i.e. cooperative efforts) I do not think it is too much to ask that you pull your weight. One can argue about the degree to which people have become insistent on it, of course, and I do agree that demanding 1,000 raider.io score to do a +7 dungeon is going to too far. But the principle underlying it is sound, and I do not expect this to magically revert back to early-2000s naivete once Classic rolls around.

Rest assured that you will be PLENTY discriminated against if you're not a top spec, and that no amount of insistence will make people hate on your Ret Paladin or Fire Mage any less.

[Qnubi]

No new content will be released for Classic, as such sooner or later people will quit and the remaining players will need to take what is left, so yes, at some point the fully decked out optimal raid that is missing a couple players will need to pick up suboptimal speccs that refuse to respecc/reroll. :P

Also the beauty of a finished development cycle is, once you finish the content, to make it interesting again you will manually put rules on yourself and see if you can still do it. Like challenge runs for SP games. (Dark souls naked runs etc.) I can 100% guarantee you that in 1-2 years there will be raids that try to finish the game with nothing BUT sub-optimal classes just for the challenge/fun.

Optimal played Classic WoW will be pretty boring, everything is known and thus sub-optimal raiding will be my meat of the game. I will finish the raids on my Prot Warrior and then form a guild to try and finish the raids without any optimal speccs. Honestly, I am looking forward that the most! Feral Tanking!

[Vakna]

If you consider shit class balancing being the best thing about Classic I worry for you. For me the best thing about Classic was the community and sense of wonder at everything I encountered because it was the first MMO for me. The class balancing in hindsight was in fact the worst thing.

[Ange]

Yup, was a sad fact of Vanilla and the "Communities" that people kindly forget about.

The guild I joined in vanilla at MC and pre BWL progress lasted for 7 years till the Server died out - 4 periods of free guild-transfers in 1 year, thanks blizzard. Hostile recruiting of good geared/lucky players were the norm, but you could also make deals with progressguilds Raid-ID's / leased raiders for other crafting mats (from raid), so it was more of a shared players pool and not final.

This worked out for years of raiding.

My experience in WoW raiding is highly shifted because I played on EU-Destromath and it was till and at WotLK the biggest raiding server WORLDWIDE (most raiding guilds, most raid boss kills, extreme amount of pve) - there are many threads about this server because of the serverwide-content-gating-change in WoW and the possibility to break the system with servers like this, because the sheer number of raiding players on 1 server outmatched basicly whole Battle-Group-Clusters of Servers from US.

I was lucky to be able to spend my first 7/14 years of raiding in such a community.

[solinari6]

I'm confused, because I'm sure I've read things like:

Vanilla raiding is so easy you only need 20 competent raiders, the rest can be mouth breathing keyboard turners!

which doesn't quite jive with:

No suboptimal specs will be allowed in raids!

[mickybrighteyes]

Those specs have to suck and have to be hated by everyone for the true experience. I'd suffer through YEARS of that again for the Day of Ret in Patch 3.0 so these kids that talk about how shit Ret is now can understand the true terrible nature of the spec and how satisfying it felt to dunk on shitties with it.

why would you wish that on someone...

a return to the days where holy was better damage than ret?

[blooderduki]

Paladin's couldnt taunt and could only get enough +defense gear to tank if they neglected their spell power which would make it so they also subsequently couldn't hold aggro. They likewise had less mitigation:

Paladin had Holy Shield, which wasn't that great on single target
Bubbles which they couldn't use since it dropped threat and they had no taunt to get it back
Lay on Hands which got rid of ALL their mana which they needed to hold threat.


Warrior had a constant passive 10% damage mitigation with defensive stance.
Shield block
Demoralizing shout
Retaliation
Could become fear immune (major in vanilla)
Shield wall
Last Stand

The ONLY thing Paladins could tank well were trash mobs since those were the only ones that wouldn't crushing blow them to death. And while a Paladin would hold more aggro on trash mobs, trash wasn't all that important, Warrior could still do it just fine, and if the warrior had thunderfury then the Paladin was rendered useless.

Paladin's couldnt taunt and could only get enough +defense gear to tank if they neglected their spell power which would make it so they also subsequently couldn't hold aggro. They likewise had less mitigation:

Paladins could Taunt 100% using BoP to the target while Taunts by Warriors can resist.

Paladins don't need any Spell Power Gear, they just need only Spell Power Weapon (same as Warriors goes for DPS Weapons for threats) , the rest of spell power can be filled by Enchants and Consumes which is more than enough to survive and do even more threats than Warriors!

Paladin had Holy Shield, which wasn't that great on single target
Bubbles which they couldn't use since it dropped threat and they had no taunt to get it back
Lay on Hands which got rid of ALL their mana which they needed to hold threat.

-Holy Shield does 10 times more threats than Warriors Shield Slam.
-Bubble can be done via /Macro as instant removal and you are 100% wrong and fake news about unable to get aggro back , because nobody removes completely threats from Bubble, threat from using Bubble is kept and everyone return back when Bubble effect is removed!
- Lay on Hands removes the Mana (which can regenerated back extremely easy via Demonic Runes/Major Mana pots/Judgement of Wisdom/Innervate) , but also Lay on Hands does insane amount of threats as compensation!

Warrior had a constant passive 10% damage mitigation with defensive stance.
Shield block
Demoralizing shout
Retaliation
Could become fear immune (major in vanilla)
Shield wall
Last Stand

Warrios had a constant passive 10% damage mitigation with defensive stance , but such passive mitigation is reduced by Armor increasing from Items, which mean the 10% damage reduction is no longer 10% , but so much lesser.

Warrior Shield Block (removes crushing blows, low damage blocking) - Paladin Holy Shield - Increased blocked damage by 30%
Warrior Demoralizing Shout (reduce enemy attack power by 35-140 (or in reality 2-10 damage reduction) - Paladin Blessing of Sanctuary (reduce damage taken by 24)
Warrior Retaliation - Paladin Retribution Aura, Holy Shield ,Redoubt,Reckoning
Warrior Could become fear immune - Paladin could get dwarf priest and say hello buddy or can use /macro instant bubble and removal to remove fear.
Warrior Shield Wall ( it's damage reduction effect gets reduced by armor) - Paladin Bubble (can be /macro instant removed to get the aggro back before Boss do anything) immune to all Damage , can self heal thru it without interruptions , removes all deadly debuffs who are 100% dead for Warrior Tank
Warrior Last Stand (increases only his hp pool , nothing else, doesn't even heal him) - Paladin Lay on Hand "talented" (increase Armor by 30% for 2 minutes "armor is biggest damage reduction stat" , increase threats insanely high from heal, increase mana if it is oom , fills Health maximum).

The ONLY thing Paladins could tank well were trash mobs since those were the only ones that wouldn't crushing blow them to death. And while a Paladin would hold more aggro on trash mobs, trash wasn't all that important, Warrior could still do it just fine, and if the warrior had thunderfury then the Paladin was rendered useless.

Crushing Blows are not Monsters as you try to propagate and spill fake news, it does 50% more damage and has maximum chance to 15% (1 out of 6 swings) , while Critical Strikes are Monsters who does 100% more damage and they can get rid off by def cap.
As compensation to Crushing Blows, Paladins increased block value by 30% makes Paladins reduce overall damage same as those Crushing Blows never existed.

Aggro is one of the most important thing as Tank and Paladin is King of Aggro , while Warriors are suboptimal Aggro makers, Aggro causes people to do more DPS and shorter fights leads to lesser mana wasted and lesser damage taken issue for healers which is again part of Surviving too!

Warrior using Thunderfury wont make him better than Paladins , for the main reason that for Warriors Thunderfury is 25% proc rate, while as Paladin Thunderfury is 50% proc rate thanks to Seal of Righteousness that proc weapon procs same as you do with white swings (read patch notes).

Please next time learn more about Paladins before you talk things you have 0 clue.

[mickybrighteyes]

Paladins could Taunt 100% using BoP to the target while Taunts by Warriors can resist.

a multi minute cooldown is NOT the same as a 10 second cooldown

Paladins don't need any Spell Power Gear, they just need only Spell Power Weapon (same as Warriors goes for DPS Weapons for threats) , the rest of spell power can be filled by Enchants and Consumes which is more than enough to survive and do even more threats than Warriors!

classic gear was a wierd mess and paladins used spell damage and strength for different abilities. this bullshit was present across multiple classes and persisted for a long time

-Holy Shield does 10 times more threats than Warriors Shield Slam.

i won't doubt it did, but keep in mind holy shield was more like shield block than shield slam

- Lay on Hands removes the Mana (which can regenerated back extremely easy via Demonic Runes/Major Mana pots/Judgement of Wisdom/Innervate) , but also Lay on Hands does insane amount of threats as compensation!

a long ass cooldown....

Crushing Blows are not Monsters as you try to propagate and spill fake news, it does 50% more damage and has maximum chance to 15% (1 out of 6 swings) , while Critical Strikes are Monsters who does 100% more damage and they can get rid off by def cap.

i don't know what you're talking about. crushing blows were 150% normal dmg and were done by mobs and npcs that were 3 levels above you. everyone had to deal with them and the only way to counter them out was to increase your defense... i don't recall anything about a maximum % chance unless we're talking about after you're taking account mitigation stats and going into effective avoidance to reach uncrushable stats.

Warrior using Thunderfury wont make him better than Paladins , for the main reason that for Warriors Thunderfury is 25% proc rate, while as Paladin Thunderfury is 50% proc rate thanks to Seal of Righteousness that proc weapon procs same as you do with white swings (read patch notes).

something seems very off about this section....

now...as i understand TF proccs on any hit with an ability that uses the weapon. so either link teh patch notes you're referring to or show us your math here. only TF proc buff/nerf i remember is teh nerf to the threat generation in TBC or a nostralius patch.

[Hubbl3]

...because Classic WoW is using patch 1.12 as its base, which is the last major patch before BC and after Naxx was released.

I brought up the sets because for some reason you seem to think people aren't going to be rushing to get to the end of the game based on the end of your post.

They can still gate the content as they see fit. Just because they won't do the normal patch cycle doesn't mean you will get everything that was in Patch 1.12.1 at day 1.