Mega-Thread: Mueller investigation

[DocSavageFan]

It depends on how the publicity is handled.

Don't worry about that...MSM has your back.

[Daelak]

It's actually insane how blatant the obstruction is coming out of this WH and the vast, vast, vast majority of republicans in government. The only reason why we have come to such a dangerous point in this crisis is due to the wholesale delusion which has blighted the republican base for decades. I am glad Swalwell finally said what Mueller and co. have been saying since the announcement of Sessions resignation and Rosenstein's delayed resignation, an entire corrupt process that will inevitably lead to a WH plot to obstruct and distort what was being investigated.

[Frusciante]

It's actually insane how blatant the obstruction is coming out of this WH and the vast, vast, vast majority of republicans in government. The only reason why we have come to such a dangerous point in this crisis is due to the wholesale delusion which has blighted the republican base for decades. I am glad Swalwell finally said what Mueller and co. have been saying since the announcement of Sessions resignation and Rosenstein's delayed resignation, an entire corrupt process that will inevitably lead to a WH plot to obstruct and distort what was being investigated.

You guys must not be reading the Analysis and Intent sections. In order to come to the conclusion that it's straight up obstruction, you'd have to speculate...much like you guys are doing now.

[Elegiac]

Stephen Hoyer just nixed the idea of impeachment proceedings, and I have no doubt Pelosi would agree with him.

This isn't grounds for impeachment; what it is, is electoral ammunition.

[Flower Milk]

Stephen Hoyer just nixed the idea of impeachment proceedings, and I have no doubt Pelosi would agree with him.

This isn't grounds for impeachment; what it is, is electoral ammunition.

There is no way that this isn't grounds for impeachment. The entire report lays out how Russians interfered in the 2016 election, Trump tried to cover that up as president, and tried to obstruct and even end the investigation into that interference. That 100% falls under being a threat to national security, violating the oath of the office of the presidency. The entire Mueller report is a road map for impeachment proceedings for Congress.

[Daelak]

You guys must not be reading the Analysis and Intent sections. In order to come to the conclusion that it's straight up obstruction, you'd have to speculate...much like you guys are doing now.

I didn't speculate, lies told to the special counsel forced Mueller to have neutral language, but gave plenty of evidence for Congress to use, not a Trump DOJ AG appointee who telegraphed his support in June of 2018, probably as a concerted measure from senior GOP leaders to lead on as a organic resignation/confirmation process between Sessions and Barr. What the special counsel didn't investigate was the reasoning for Ronsenstein's continual delayed resignation. Most likely to tie him to Barr's shielding in the inevitable event the unredacted report gets to the gang of eight.

[downnola]

It's actually insane how blatant the obstruction is coming out of this WH and the vast, vast, vast majority of republicans in government. The only reason why we have come to such a dangerous point in this crisis is due to the wholesale delusion which has blighted the republican base for decades. I am glad Swalwell finally said what Mueller and co. have been saying since the announcement of Sessions resignation and Rosenstein's delayed resignation, an entire corrupt process that will inevitably lead to a WH plot to obstruct and distort what was being investigated.

It's sad that the report basically says that he tried to obstruct, but ultimately failed because nobody he was trying to coerce would follow through with his requests. Imagine, for a moment, that a Democratic president tried even half of the shit that's in that report surrounding the investigation. There's no doubt in my mind that there would be impeachment proceedings, and people like Nunes and McConnell would be at the front of the pack making noise about it. Right-wing media and conservative PACs would be having a corruption extravaganza and it would never leave their news cycle.

How does this report not invoke a loss of confidence for this President, and why should Democrats tone down the pressure because no charges were brought against him? That's one of the most damaging documents I've ever seen for a sitting President. It's on par, or worse than Watergate for Christ's sake.

[BrerBear]

Everyone is already aware of Russian actions - indictments about them went long ago.

It isn't relevant to Campaign coordination/conspiracy (collusion) suspicion.

It is absolutely relevant, Russian shill.

It declares that the Trump campaign knew it was getting help from the Russians, which is backed up multiple times with evidence in the report itself. Although the Trump campaign lied and lied and lied and lied about that, the only reason they weren't charged with conspiracy -- according to Barr himself -- is that the Trump campaign didn't coordinate on the Russian hack itself.

[Breccia]

There is no way that this isn't grounds for impeachment.

I think what Didactic was implying was "this isn't enough ammunition to successfully impeach". I agree with you. If Clinton gets impeached for lying to Congress (about a blowjob ffs), Team Trump made a collective pushback against this investigation to the point of conspiring to lie about working with hostile foreign power Russia. Anyone who thinks Clinton should have been impeached, must also think Trump should be impeached, or they are a hypocrite.

[rda]

But they didn't use a single sentence. Barr used a fragment of a sentence:

"Although the investigation established that the Russian government perceived it would benefit from a Trump presidency and worked to secure that outcome, and that the Campaign expected it would benefit electorally from information stolen and released through Russian efforts, the investigation did not establish that members of the Trump Campaign conspired or coordinated with the Russian government in its election interference activities."

He conveniently left the bold part out.

The bolded part is weak, that's why it was left out. All the meat is in the non-bolded part. The bolded part is just "perceived / expected", these are soft matters. I mean, if you want to lynch someone over things like that, be my guest - like I already said (although some here apparently have a hard time believing), I don't really care and I didn't follow the story closely at all - have at it, but that's weak, it's undeniable. Especially given the amount of digging that was done.

Anyway, let's see if there's something actually new in the report - because on that linked page I saw nothing really new save for "didn't establish collusion" at the end - and if there is not, let's see if this thread will close or, if not, where it will go (because I have no idea where it could even go).

[Breccia]

How does this report not invoke a loss of confidence for this President

There was no confidence left. You can't fall off the floor when you're already lying face-down.

[Elegiac]

There is no way that this isn't grounds for impeachment. The entire report lays out how Russians interfered in the 2016 election, Trump tried to cover that up as president, and tried to obstruct and even end the investigation into that interference. That 100% falls under being a threat to national security, violating the oath of the office of the presidency. The entire Mueller report is a road map for impeachment proceedings for Congress.

In another political climate, maybe.

But based on how the public responded to Barr's summary (i.e. not at all) and based on exit polling of the midterms, impeachment would just be a distraction from the Democrats trying to win over the public with policy. Unless the redacted sections contain something truly heinous or unless there is a significant public push for impeachment even amongst Republicans, that's all it will remain.

[downnola]

There was no confidence left. You can't fall off the floor when you're already lying face-down.

He seems to have an entire party wrapped around his finger, so that's not entirely true. There's going to be a post-Trump GOP, I'm amazed that none of them are worried about what that looks like.

[Flower Milk]

I think what Didactic was implying was "this isn't enough ammunition to successfully impeach". I agree with you. If Clinton gets impeached for lying to Congress (about a blowjob ffs), Team Trump made a collective pushback against this investigation to the point of conspiring to lie about working with hostile foreign power Russia. Anyone who thinks Clinton should have been impeached, must also think Trump should be impeached, or they are a hypocrite.

There is definitely enough evidence of Trump trying to cover up Russian interference in the election to impeach, I honestly can't think of any way Republicans in the Senate could refute it when presented with such evidence. There is quite literally a mountain of evidence that Trump is a threat to national security, warranting impeachment.

[Frusciante]

I didn't speculate, lies told to the special counsel forced Mueller to have neutral language, but gave plenty of evidence for Congress to use, not a Trump DOJ AG appointee who telegraphed his support in June of 2018, probably as a concerted measure from senior GOP leaders to lead on as a organic resignation/confirmation process between Sessions and Barr. What the special counsel didn't investigate was the reasoning for Ronsenstein's continual delayed resignation. Most likely to tie him to Barr's shielding in the inevitable event the unredacted report gets to the gang of eight.

Your last line is speculation but yet you're saying that you're not. It's not honest. It's made up. There is nothing in the report to suggest that.

[cubby]

Stephen Hoyer just nixed the idea of impeachment proceedings, and I have no doubt Pelosi would agree with him.

This isn't grounds for impeachment; what it is, is electoral ammunition.

And that's exactly how it should be used. Impeachment would be costly, ineffective, and could backfire dramatically in the 2020 elections. Better to just run with investigations this will spawn and win in 2020. Once Trump is a private citizen again, we can just convict him for the multitude of crimes he's committed.

[Cthulhu 2020]

There is no way that this isn't grounds for impeachment. The entire report lays out how Russians interfered in the 2016 election, Trump tried to cover that up as president, and tried to obstruct and even end the investigation into that interference. That 100% falls under being a threat to national security, violating the oath of the office of the presidency. The entire Mueller report is a road map for impeachment proceedings for Congress.

And yet the smart move is not to impeach. It would expend a lot of political capital to impeach. We've become such a polarized nation that Republicans truly believe Trump did no wrong. When you look at what people are concerned about, the average person, it's the economy and healthcare are the highest. You want to draw votes from the center? (The true center, not the "Zenkai" center) You don't spend the next year impeaching Trump. You concentrate on economy and health care, so when the election comes around, candidates can point to that, and the American people can remove the President completely and wholly so that nobody ever believes that the "establishment" screwed over Trump.

Is it an abortion of justice not to impeach? Absolutely, but doing so endangers 2020.

[cubby]

There is definitely enough evidence of Trump trying to cover up Russian interference in the election to impeach, I honestly can't think of any way Republicans in the Senate could refute it when presented with such evidence. There is quite literally a mountain of evidence that Trump is a threat to national security, warranting impeachment.

Because you're thinking honestly, something the GOP abandoned long ago.

[Breccia]

I honestly can't think of any way Republicans in the Senate could refute it when presented with such evidence.

Thing is, they don't need to. They can just vote 'no' and walk away.

Honestly, they're too scared to even abstain, afraid the rabid fanbase would demand their heads for this act of treason.

[kreationkin]

And that's exactly how it should be used. Impeachment would be costly, ineffective, and could backfire dramatically in the 2020 elections. Better to just run with investigations this will spawn and win in 2020. Once Trump is a private citizen again, we can just convict him for the multitude of crimes he's committed.

I see where you're coming from, but I believe this has to be a matter where we dismiss what is "good for the party" because we must remain a nation of laws. It may indeed be more politically savvy to use the information from this report to attack Trump during the election. However, I worry doing so means that we are establishing precedent that these behaviors don't truly matter to us, and that our ideals and morals are of lesser consequence than the short-term results we obtain. We have to be better as a country than that.