There's no choice in Covenants - they will be min-maxed anyway

[Lucavian]

Clearly you don’t raid mythic. The social pressure alone in mythical means a certain one is more optimal for raiding than the other

I may be legit out in a situation where I’m handicapping myself and the group by not taking X covenant over Y

No more so than stacking X class over Y class. If you're not playing the top spec/class of your role you're already gimping them by more than what the covenant differences will likely be seeing as how they're pretty good at getting overall balance for -most- things closely balanced. Sure there might be one covenant that winds up with one outlier, but it will be fixed I'm sure.

[crusadernero]

Probably depends what kind of content you are doing. If you do LFR, normal or Heroic raiding it wont really matter what you pick. if you are a world first hardcore mythic player, it probably matters.

Funny thing is that alot of wow players think they are in the latter bracket and act like it, when theres no need to.

[justandulas]

No more so than stacking X class over Y class. If you're not playing the top spec/class of your role you're already gimping them by more than what the covenant differences will likely be seeing as how they're pretty good at getting overall balance for -most- things closely balanced. Sure there might be one covenant that winds up with one outlier, but it will be fixed I'm sure.

That’s the problem, the designs go against each other.

On one hand they say “you can choose one of four to align with” but in reality one will outshine the others for particular specs or classes like tanks and healers, thus removing the choice entirely

It needs to be cosmetic or fun but not affect gameplay or else it removes choice

[MasterOfNone]

Sims are shit; and I don't need to sim either is what I'm saying. There is no back peddling. I'm saying it literally doesn't fucking matter.

you are ignorant beyond belief. you are dead fucking wrong.

[Wylyth1992]

It Should be cosmetic but a super awesome cosmetic choice or something harmless like DH flying with no mount. Etc

Instead, it will likely pigeon hole specs into certain covenants. Example; I want to pick the most evil one but the best tank skill is on the angelic side. That ruins everything for me

From what I read, none of the Covenants are "evil".

[Biggles Worth]

Is there literally anything in this game that can't be min-maxed? There will always be an option that sims better than other options in any situation.

There were some builds early on in this expansion with the azerite power that I utilized. I thought of a build that created a rotation that I never saw before, after discovering I shared on the forums, and later on down the line I never saw anyone doing what I did. The class has a standard single target rotation and aoe rotation. My build didn't follow either of those at all. It left me doing the same amount of damage as the others.

What that ended up offering me was a unique way to play that was viable and I found that really enjoyable. I wish I get more instances of this in the future with build diversities altering my gameplay and rotations.

[justandulas]

From what I read, none of the Covenants are "evil".

One is the army of the dead, and the other vampire lords basically

Hard to call them good guys

They are clearly meant to represent good and evil, and it’s the most choice in that regard that they seem capable of giving us (I’m still team garrosh and sylvanas)

I know I didn’t roll a zombie evil wizard (warlock) to be the hero or champion, I want to be the bad guy and so so many other players

It’s why, in every mmorpg with morality from dcuo, swtor, city of heroes/villains... the players who pick evil far outnumber the good

Blizz would do well to remember that some of us would be the monsters if given a choice. I’d have personally executed baine and thrall

[Voidism]

If you're a min-maxer sure... but most people aren't. I will choose covenant because of esthetics and feel, not numbers.

[mhdoe]

Wow and the bitter post looking for attention already start. Unless you are a worlds first or make a living off playing WoW min/max does not matter because the few percent that someone gains by copying others specs can easily be overcome by someone with skill.

[Sigxy]

I'm probably going to avoid min-maxing. To me it's going to end up what covenant that suits my character the most. Only thing that would convince me otherwise would be if they decided to give some kind of 'Seal of Blood' ability for my paladin, then that would be my go to.

[KYZ123]

I'm not going to min-max for covenants, similar to how I do not min-max for my class or spec choice. (Feral druid since I started in MoP, and no amount of Boomkin buffs can make me switch.)

If you don't pick night fae as a druid, you're playing druid wrong.

[Wylyth1992]

One is the army of the dead, and the other vampire lords basically

Hard to call them good guys

They are clearly meant to represent good and evil, and it’s the most choice in that regard that they seem capable of giving us (I’m still team garrosh and sylvanas)

I know I didn’t roll a zombie evil wizard (warlock) to be the hero or champion, I want to be the bad guy and so so many other players

It’s why, in every mmorpg with morality from dcuo, swtor, city of heroes/villains... the players who pick evil far outnumber the good

Blizz would do well to remember that some of us would be the monsters if given a choice. I’d have personally executed baine and thrall

The "army of the dead" are the military might of the Shadowlands and are survival of the fittest, not evil. Draka is one of the souls who is alligned with them. Meanwhile, the "vampire lords" deal with punishing and then rehabilitating the evil souls so they may move on. So its more Dark Is Not Evil.

[shaunika123]

Wow and the bitter post looking for attention already start. Unless you are a worlds first or make a living off playing WoW min/max does not matter because the few percent that someone gains by copying others specs can easily be overcome by someone with skill.

assuming you're a better player.

usually people who dont care about minmaxing, arent that hot in the skill department either :P (not saying there isnt any overlap, but it's a tendency, since it's good players who care about performance the most)

as to all the "well then they might as well not add anything"

well, not necessarily.

they could make them give utility spells for example.

OR make them abilities that meaningfully impact your rotation(which I'm not saying they arent)

because if all of them become a "press your covenant ability every minute for some extra dps" button, then it's boring and everyone will minmax it.

if all 4 abilities change something fundamental in your dps rotation differently (which is a lot more work, but I mean, it's their job) then minmax might not matter to everyone.

for example, if blizzard came and said the new covenant ability for X will make sub rogues play like they did at the end of Legion, rather than the current one.
I'd take it even if it meant losing a couple % dps.

[Onikaroshi]

For one, the vast majority of people in wow don't min max, this forum is basically an echo-chamber for people who do, people who come to forums are a different breed than your average players.

For another, people are looking at this too simply, mostly just the active ability, but Covenants are more then that, you have to add in who knows how many passive trees, a 1-2% dps loss in the ability could easily be made up for in the Soulbinds.

But for gods sake, stop suggesting they homogenize them.... that takes all the fun out of the whole thing.

[huth]

Make the abilities uninstanced content only. Boom, easily fixed everything about it. 100% agree, this is fucking *DUMB* to make a whole god damn talent tree and TWO abilities that are tied to 4 long-term choices.

Making them long-term is what forces players to make a choice instead of just optimising for whatever they're doing at the time. It's actually a necessary part.

They just need to make sure one covenant isn't best for most or all venues.

But restricting it to only open world content would run counter to the purpose. That's not a fix, that's throwing the system out.

[Melchior]

They want to make the choice as "fuzzy" as possible, when it comes to theorycrafting.

Covenants have a lot of different choices within them (not just that one class ability), they are more easily compared to class choices than an individual talent, azerite power or essence.

To ask "Which covenant is best for my spec?" will be like asking "Which is best for raids, mage or warlock?" The answer is a lot less clear and varied.

There will always be a mathematically best solution in any given scenario, but you can say the same for mage or warlock in any given scenario... Does that mean you switch characters every mythic raid boss? No. There's a range of how optimal you decide you want or need to be... almost nobody switches class for every fight, but some might change a talent or two. Covenants are in between those choices, leaning more towards a class choice.

Any covenant choice won't be mathematically ideal in every scenario, and it won't be painless to switch the whole thing.

If there's a balancing issue, they will obviously try to address that. They've even stated they might just flat out disable certain portions if it proves too hard to balance, like in PvP.

We'll just have to wait and see.

[Relapses]

They want to make the choice as "fuzzy" as possible, when it comes to theorycrafting.

Covenants have a lot of different choices within them (not just that one class ability), they are more easily compared to class choices than an individual talent, azerite power or essence.

To ask "Which covenant is best for my spec?" will be like asking "Which is best for raids, mage or warlock?" The answer is a lot less clear and varied.

There will always be a mathematically best solution in any given scenario, but you can say the same for mage or warlock in any given scenario... Does that mean you switch characters every mythic raid boss? No. There's a range of how optimal you decide you want or need to be... almost nobody switches class for every fight, but some might change a talent or two. Covenants are in between those choices, leaning more towards a class choice.

Any covenant choice won't be mathematically ideal in every scenario, and it won't be painless to switch the whole thing.

If there's a balancing issue, they will obviously try to address that. They've even stated they might just flat out disable certain portions if it proves too hard to balance, like in PvP.

We'll just have to wait and see.

Are you intentionally paraphrasing Ion's response to this question? Lol.

[Melchior]

Are you intentionally paraphrasing Ion's response to this question? Lol.

Yes, because he makes a good point. Not everyone saw that interview.

It's really easy to have a "dead talent" in many scenarios. But as you will see, classes are fairly well represented around the raiding scene. The premise of this thread is how covenants aren't a choice, because everyone will be forced to pick one due to mathematics and social pressure. That doesn't happen with classes, and if they design covenants the way they are currently suggesting, it won't happen with covenants either. It's a lot more complex than any individual talent or power.

[Relapses]

Yes, because he makes a good point. Not everyone saw that interview.

It's really easy to have a "dead talent" in many scenarios. But as you will see, classes are fairly well represented around the raiding scene. The premise of this thread is how covenants aren't a choice, because everyone will be forced to pick one due to mathematics and social pressure. That doesn't happen with classes, and if they design covenants the way they are currently suggesting, it won't happen with covenants either. It's a lot more complex than any individual talent or power.

Obviously, and most of this thread is the typical knee-jerk reactionary "Y WON'T BLIZZ EVR LISTEN" bullshit. Page after page of people using hypothetical math to prove their distaste with this system will be proven once it's launched. As if... I don't know, the devs haven't actually thought about this exact problem when designing Covenants in the first place. Players, it seems, don't actually care about what the devs think, just that they think the devs are always wrong. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Easyclassictopkeklel]

People will take the one with the mathematically best skills and that's it. I don't get why Blizzard thinks this gives choice to the players. It absolutely does not. Especially with this 'you can only choose one, so choose wisely' crap. This will only make me look up a guide on what's providing the best DPS/HPS/Utility.

Am I missing something here or is this system a really dumb idea?

It gives choice to the player, many people just dont choose by themselves and copy what theorycrafters or youtubers call out to be the best.
Yet a huge part of the playerbase is not like that and casual af and just goes for what they like best. Crazy right?
The problem is not only blizzard, it is the todays mentality of minmaxing and always going for whats supposed to be "best". You see that with shit 1000+ guilds copying strategies and lineups, yet they often do not understand why people chose that strategy or lineup. You see people minmaxing for content where those few %
are freaking useless.

The problem is that shitty players still always want to be the "best" and they often sacrifice their fun for that. No matter what blizzard will do, people will always figure out what probably will be the way to go and peons will follow.