Arthas has to be in the Shadowlands

[Temp1on2]

Ok. Fine. Last attempt to get you to understand basic concepts. Based off my example that you quoted:

What Arthas would do: kill the infected babies to protect the other babies from being infected as well.
What Sargaras would do: kill all the babies, healthy and ill, regardless if they're infected or not.

What do you not understand? I have said it several times. It isn't even a case of understanding concepts, its understanding basic words:

Arthas killed uninfected babies too! He slaughtered every human, healthy and ill, in stratholme regardless of if they were infect or not!

You're literally saying sargeras would be bad for doing what arthas did, but arthas isn't bad for what arthas did. cognitive dissonance

[huth]

Ok. Fine. Last attempt to get you to understand basic concepts. Based off my example that you quoted:

What Arthas would do: kill the infected babies to protect the other babies from being infected as well.
What Sargaras would do: kill all the babies, healthy and ill, regardless if they're infected or not.

Your example has a major problem. As far as Sargeras knows, there are no uninfected babies.

The issue he was trying to fix is inherent to the makeup of the current physical universe.

[Temp1on2]

Your example has a major problem. As far as Sargeras knows, there are no uninfected babies.

The issue he was trying to fix is inherent to the makeup of the current physical universe.

But not just that, arthas did kill uninfected babies. Am I missing something here? Seriously?

[Piamonte]

What do you not understand? I have said it several times. It isn't even a case of understanding concepts, its understanding basic words:

Arthas killed uninfected babies too! He slaughtered every human, healthy and ill, in stratholme regardless of if they were infect or not!

You're literally saying sargeras would be bad for doing what arthas did, but arthas isn't bad for what arthas did. cognitive dissonance

He killed the people in stratholme who were all infected so the rest of the kingdom didnt get infected.

[Azgraal]

Leave it to fanboys to act like a guy who made a deal with the devil and killed his best friends and family is a good guy

Trade personal doom for power and killing his friends and family can never be justified within the lore, but culling the city was the right, hard thing to do. Those people were all dead already. They were just waiting to be told that.

[Utrrabbit]

He would have gotten chucked into the Maw with the rest of the evil bastards.

Arthas wasnt evil. He was corrupted. Difference. Being corrupted means you can be redeemed. Dont forget that right before he dies his old personality comes back.

If anything hed be with the vamps or the blue bois.

[Ielenia]

Your example has a major problem. As far as Sargeras knows, there are no uninfected babies.

The issue he was trying to fix is inherent to the makeup of the current physical universe.

Actually, no. It's not "as far as Sargeras knows, there are no 'uninfected babies'". It was more like "babies can get infected, therefore kill all babies."

[nonameelf]

Arthas wasnt evil. He was corrupted. Difference. Being corrupted means you can be redeemed. Dont forget that right before he dies his old personality comes back.

If anything hed be with the vamps or the blue bois.

He absolutely was evil. And not only was he evil, but he was fucking around with Shadowlands stuff. The exact kind of person that gets tossed into the Maw.

[Ielenia]

What do you not understand? I have said it several times. It isn't even a case of understanding concepts, its understanding basic words:

Arthas killed uninfected babies too! He slaughtered every human, healthy and ill, in stratholme regardless of if they were infect or not!

You're literally saying sargeras would be bad for doing what arthas did, but arthas isn't bad for what arthas did. cognitive dissonance

Except Sargeras did not do "what Arthas did", which is the crux of your problem here: you can't seem to understand (or accept) that basic fact. I know I said I wouldn't repeat myself, but just one last time for the road:

• What Arthas did was akin to a doctor cutting off a victim's limb to keep the infection from spreading to the rest of the body.
• What Sargeras did was akin to said doctor killing the victim because the victim's limb was infected.

Those are not the same thing.

- - - Updated - - -

He absolutely was evil. And not only was he evil, but he was fucking around with Shadowlands stuff. The exact kind of person that gets tossed into the Maw.

He was not Arthas at that time. He was the Lich King.

What you're doing is akin to blaming someone who was mind-controlled for the actions they were forced to take while under someone else's control.

[nonameelf]

He was not Arthas at that time. He was the Lich King.

What you're doing is akin to blaming someone who was mind-controlled for the actions they were forced to take while under someone else's control.

He wasn't mind controlled during Wrath of the Lich King. He had beaten Ner'zhul. He was just Arthas.

He also wasn't mind controlled when he picked up Frostmourne. It was his choice.

[Neuroticaine]

He wasn't a bad guy before taking up frostmourne, pay attention to the actual lore, i guess?

Are you kidding me? Did you actually play Warcraft 3?

[Ielenia]

He wasn't mind controlled during Wrath of the Lich King. He had beaten Ner'zhul. He was just Arthas.

Wasn't that retconned in Chronicles? I don't have the book, but I read others claiming it was.

Regardless: according to what we see in the game, as earlier as Legion, the helm does control you. If you played the death knight Order Hall campaign, as well as a few of the class/specs in which had you visit Icecrown to retrieve your artifact weapon, the Bolvar that greets you is not the Bolvar you knew. He even threatens to kill you.

He also wasn't mind controlled when he picked up Frostmourne. It was his choice.

The moment he picked up Frostmourne, the Lich King began to exert his influence on him. He picked the sword up with noble intentions: to bring the demon Mal'Ganis to justice, and protect his people.

[Greengrim]

What is your opinion on the matter?

Hell no brother, I'm not falling for your trap!

[Temp1on2]

He killed the people in stratholme who were all infected so the rest of the kingdom didnt get infected.

All the people in stratholme were not infected.

[Yoshingo]

Wasn't that retconned in Chronicles? I don't have the book, but I read others claiming it was.

Regardless: according to what we see in the game, as earlier as Legion, the helm does control you. If you played the death knight Order Hall campaign, as well as a few of the class/specs in which had you visit Icecrown to retrieve your artifact weapon, the Bolvar that greets you is not the Bolvar you knew. He even threatens to kill you.

a.) No that was not retconned. Arthas smote Ner'zhul inside the Helm of Domination into apparent nothing. There are no reported cases of the Helm of Domination controlling its wearer, that was a description from the RPG in that it'd automatically kill you if you put it on. It's also non canon. Furthermore nobody else but Arthas puts the helm on and during that interim when the Lich King's body is frozen he becomes the dominant personality by kill Mathias Lehner and Ner'zhul.

b.) Bolvar threatens you because you are there meddling with things that he sacrificed himself to keep locked away. And he only threatens the Fire Mage seeking Felo'melorn, he actively helps the Frost Death Knight reforge the shards of Frostmourne into two swords.

I mean even with the Fire Mage, he doesn't actively try to stop them at any point, and in fact warns them several times that their venture here could end up with them dying. He's basically testing you to see if you're worthy of wielding it to use against the Legion, and even calls you worthy of it after you kill Lyandra. And then lets you leave unobstructed.

However sure you can argue that Bolvar changed from the Paladin he was when he became the Lich King, but he isn't possessed by anything.

The moment he picked up Frostmourne, the Lich King began to exert his influence on him. He picked the sword up with noble intentions: to bring the demon Mal'Ganis to justice, and protect his people.

Muradin also flatout tells him it's cursed right before he picks it up. He knew what he was doing, he even boasts that he'd gladly give up his soul to kill Mal'ganis. So to pretend he was tricked into it is silly. He was pushed along by Mal'ganis and the Lich King, sure, but they didn't make him pick up the sword. Arthas did so willingly and with full knowledge that it was cursed.

[Temp1on2]

Except Sargeras did not do "what Arthas did"

You have to be trolling?!?!

You literally just said that sargeras would be evil if he did what arthas did!?

You said:

What Sargaras would do: kill all the babies, healthy and ill, regardless if they're infected or not.

Arthas killed all babies in stratholme regardless of if they were infected or not.

???????????

YOU said this, not me. You said that Sargeras would be considered evil for doing what Arthas actually did. Why is Arthas not evil for killing all babies (infected or not) but sargeras would be evil for killing all babies (infected or not)?

• What Arthas did was akin to a doctor cutting off a victim's limb to keep the infection from spreading to the rest of the body.
• What Sargeras did was akin to said doctor killing the victim because the victim's limb was infected.

No. Your application of your analogy is incorrect. They are logically inconsistent (you don't correlate what sargeras is trying to protect with what the doctor is trying to protect) I have explained this to you already and you failed to respond, you just ignored it (presumably because you couldn't refute it). Here is the correct application of your analogy that is logically consistent:

1. <The doctor> wants to protect the < the body> from <infection>
2. In order to protect <the body> he has to sacrifice something.
3. The thing <the doctor> has to sacrifice is <the hand>

1. <Arthas> wants to protect <humanity> from <the plague>
2. In order to protect <humanity> he has to sacrifice something.
3. The thing <arthas> has to sacrifice is <all life in stratholme>

1. <Sargeras> wants to protect <the universe> from <the void>
2. In order to protect <the universe> he has to sacrifice something.
3. The thing <Saegeras> has to sacrifice is <all mortal life in the universe>

This is an analogy. The "thing" (body) sargeras wants to protect isn't the same thing arthas wants to protect.

What you're doing is akin to blaming someone who was mind-controlled for the actions they were forced to take while under someone else's control.

Arthas was never, at any point, mind controlled. Your head-cannon isn't cannon.

[Nefastus]

Saurfang was under the effect of demonblood if you gonna excuse arthas u gotta excuse demon fueled orcs even more.

Not excusing him but losing a soul is more detrimental to your mental health than getting angry. Plus orcs decided drinking the blood for giggles (while Arthas took the sword to save his people) and we are not sure how long the serious bloodthirsty effect lasted.

[Tyrannica]

Are you kidding me? Did you actually play Warcraft 3?

You should try WC3, too once, it might teach you some things about Arthas. :-)

[Axxil]

He doesn't HAVE to be anywhere.

[Ielenia]

a.) No that was not retconned. Arthas smote Ner'zhul inside the Helm of Domination into apparent nothing. There are no reported cases of the Helm of Domination controlling its wearer, that was a description from the RPG in that it'd automatically kill you if you put it on. It's also non canon. Furthermore nobody else but Arthas puts the helm on and during that interim when the Lich King's body is frozen he becomes the dominant personality by kill Mathias Lehner and Ner'zhul.

b.) Bolvar threatens you because you are there meddling with things that he sacrificed himself to keep locked away. And he only threatens the Fire Mage seeking Felo'melorn, he actively helps the Frost Death Knight reforge the shards of Frostmourne into two swords.

I mean even with the Fire Mage, he doesn't actively try to stop them at any point, and in fact warns them several times that their venture here could end up with them dying. He's basically testing you to see if you're worthy of wielding it to use against the Legion, and even calls you worthy of it after you kill Lyandra. And then lets you leave unobstructed.

However sure you can argue that Bolvar changed from the Paladin he was when he became the Lich King, but he isn't possessed by anything.

Like I said, I don't own Chronicles, so all I got is my memory of hearsay.

And I did not mean Bolvar was "possessed", but he clearly was under heavy influence of the helm. We can see some suffering as the helm is removed from him in the Shadowlands cinematic, and Bolvar mentioning that its power "is a prison".

And, going back to the DK order hall campaign, didn't the Lich King threaten to re-take the Ebon Hold DKs under his control, or something? Memory wanes as my DK was not my main back then.

However, my point stands: wielding the blade slowly transforms you into someone else (as shown in WC3 with Arthas' descent into becoming the LK's first death knight) and putting the helm on heavily changes you.

Muradin also flatout tells him it's cursed right before he picks it up. He knew what he was doing, he even boasts that he'd gladly give up his soul to kill Mal'ganis. So to pretend he was tricked into it is silly. He was pushed along by Mal'ganis and the Lich King, sure, but they didn't make him pick up the sword. Arthas did so willingly and with full knowledge that it was cursed.

Technically, he was tricked. Mal'Ganis' intention was to lead Arthas to Frostmourne: "The moment Arthas took up Frostmourne he became a tool of the Lich King, completely subservient to his will. This was what Mal'Ganis had planned all along."

Yes, Arthas grabbed the sword out of his own free will, but his will has greatly wounded by everything Mal'Ganis did to him throughout the course of the campaign. I doubt Arthas, in his sound mind, would even consider picking up the weapon... or even purging Stratholme as a first course of action.