Jailer is good, Arbiter is evil

[Sondrelk]

Sadly, doesn't matter what's happened so far. If she did any good, it was purely coincidence because according to Blizzards lore now everything after her falling off ICC was towards this aim of powering up the Jailer and therefore herself.

Don't forget taht even before then she was canonically kidnapping and murdering innocent human farmers to further her blight experiements.

[huth]

He at least has a firmer grasp on being good than Sylvanas has. At least we have yet to see the Jailer being unquestionably evil. He is responsible for the most vile souls in the WoW universe, aand the only innocent people there are those sent there by Sylvanas.

Which is at least partially because we haven't really seen him do much of anything yet.

[Sondrelk]

Which is at least partially because we haven't really seen him do much of anything yet.

Absolutely. Blizzard wsould have to pull a pretty inept entry level twist for the Jailer to be good to make sense.

"The jailer is evil, look at all the evil things he does"
"Okay"
"The Jailer was actually good all along, we tricked you so hard"

[mickybrighteyes]

He at least has a firmer grasp on being good than Sylvanas has. At least we have yet to see the Jailer being unquestionably evil. He is responsible for the most vile souls in the WoW universe, aand the only innocent people there are those sent there by Sylvanas.

I think this point saying Sylvanas is responsible is actually countered by other story parts that imply any and all souls are sent to the maw because of yet to be explained reasons that have already been set in motion not that Sylvanas is capable of sending souls anywhere. Note that the lives lost in Teldrassil were taken in a very mundane way... (burned to death in fire, not even magical fire...)

The going story thus far is saying that something is broken already and has been since before the war of thorns?

[Pebrocks The Warlock]

Yup...
Maybe you only play Alliance.. If so, you are excused..

But all who play Horde and hav done the quest chains, know that she fought the evil within the Horde.....and did a pretty good job, if I might add.

I'm mainly an Alliance player so I'm too detailed on Horde's lore. Can you tell me how she fought the "evil within the Horde"? The 8.2.5 ending painted the opposite so I'm quite confused.

[Thage]

Don't forget taht even before then she was canonically kidnapping and murdering innocent human farmers to further her blight experiements.

As far back as Vanilla, she was pretty close to capital-E Evil. A quick trip around Undercity in Classic shows human experimentation (Theresa, a human mindslave, was experimented on with alchemical mixtures, magical torture, and straight-up surgical lobotomies to remove her personality), captives having Blight strains tested on them, and an entire quarter of the city devoted to chemical weapons testing. Either she's complicit in all that, or so ignorant of her underlings' doing that it should terrify anyone that she spent any amount of time in a leadership position.

[mickybrighteyes]

Absolutely. Blizzard wsould have to pull a pretty inept entry level twist for the Jailer to be good to make sense.

"The jailer is evil, look at all the evil things he does"
"Okay"
"The Jailer was actually good all along, we tricked you so hard"

wouldn't we need to actually see the jailer actually do things?

[Nefarious Tea]

That’s some mighty convoluted hoops you’re jumping through to paint Sylvanas as anything but evil at this point.

[Sondrelk]

I think this point saying Sylvanas is responsible is actually countered by other story parts that imply any and all souls are sent to the maw because of yet to be explained reasons that have already been set in motion not that Sylvanas is capable of sending souls anywhere. Note that the lives lost in Teldrassil were taken in a very mundane way... (burned to death in fire, not even magical fire...)

The going story thus far is saying that something is broken already and has been since before the war of thorns?

You would have to stretch belivability pretty far to not see Sylvanas as the evil one though.

The mechanism of death worked all the way until Frostmourne shattered at the very least. Right afterwards Sylvanas met the Jailer and next thing we know innocent people are going to the Maw.

Doesnt take Sherlock Holmes to see what is happening.

[Kyphael]

I'm betting both turn out being bad and have to be replaced with Bolvar (new arbiter) and Sylvanas (new jailer.) Human potential will become mortal potential.

[FuxieDK]

I.. what?
Are you lucid, my man?

Wait.. What?? Are you among that tiny minority that could't see that Saurfang and Baine are traitors?

[Chromell]

Edit: Oh, I also think the Jailer is the smith who forged Frostmourn/Helm of Domination...

They said it was created by Kil'jaeden, or was that retconned?

[Sondrelk]

They said it was created by Kil'jaeden, or was that retconned?

semi-retconned.

Old lore was that it was created by the Nathrezim, new lore is that it made in the Shadowlands and that the Nathrezim had taken it.
Or at least something to that effect.

[mickybrighteyes]

I'm mainly an Alliance player so I'm too detailed on Horde's lore. Can you tell me how she fought the "evil within the Horde"? The 8.2.5 ending painted the opposite so I'm quite confused.

From the horde PoV, the rebels rose up and took action to start infighting in the ranks during open war on multiple fronts, actively leaked information on military objectives to the enemy side and destroyed/stole military resources. Saurfang fled the field of battle as he was leading it to run into Alliance custody to return to take Orgrimmar with an alliance army. Baine killed crew and stole a ship to meet with the Grand Admiral of Kul Tiras and give away plans and tactics. Saurfang helped Jaina clean out a horde factory and destroyed a fortunes worth of military armaments...

honestly it's really dumb easy to show case the rebels as traitors and with the backdrop of the actively ongoing multi-front war going on... tie their actions to additional losses of lives for their faction. The only way they come out looking squeaky clean is the way the story railroaded into everyone unanimously forgetting everything and just blaming Sylvanas and her having another well timed breakdown/outburst.

IT also doesn't help that literally everything that would showcase the horde high command under sylvanas doing shady shit or the main terrible acts are either done in an active warzone (the killing and raising of troops happening as the gates are about to destroyed by an oncoming army) or happen off screen for horde (all the sanlayn bit or the horde invasion in the Stormsong valley leveling questline). Other events that horde might see happen after the alliance has invaded Dazar'alor and killed Rastakhan (another point where they have horde and alliance see happening in different ways)....

BFA is a really bad example of how to deliver the story cause it's like they're trying to not make one side the villains outright... but doing it anyways.

[Chromell]

Thinking again, actually WC3 said that the Lich King was created by KJ. I guess I assumed that meant the helm as well?

[mickybrighteyes]

Wait.. What?? Are you among that tiny minority that could't see that Saurfang and Baine are traitors?

you realize traitors and patriots are the same and only differ in who's side wins... I hope.

- - - Updated - - -

You would have to stretch belivability pretty far to not see Sylvanas as the evil one though.

I've long since given up on trying to talk about this point. Prior to BFA she had a smaller kill count than Jaina but Jaina will always be everyone's best Waifu in the lore. Now they just railroad the warchief into the next villain so I'm waiting for the future council fight with Baine and the other not warchiefs

The mechanism of death worked all the way until Frostmourne shattered at the very least. Right afterwards Sylvanas met the Jailer and next thing we know innocent people are going to the Maw.

this is part of the story that's yet to be revealed... we don't know if that was a trigger at all... we don't know if the mechanisms for death were even functioning then or if it occurred later or if they have retconned even more material between whatever and whatever. Sylvanas' suicide event is now a very different thing since it contradicts the arbiter thing cause she seemed to have gone straight to the maw herself? or she somehow 'escaped' view val'kyr or never went in that plane

Doesnt take Sherlock Holmes to see what is happening.

It still takes a little more information than what we have. I'm just saying you're giving Sylvanas a lot of credit to say she is the one who sent souls someplace or that she is the one responsible. At best, I could see she is taking advantage of a situation

edit:

actually it WOULD be kind of funny if frostmourne breaking was a main reason for the whole mess. It's main thing was consuming the souls of victims it slew, if I remember, and it held countless souls from before Arthas held it. What if it's shattering and release of souls overloaded the mechanisms of death or whatever and was what caused everything to go haywire?

[Mirishka]

Given the quality of Blizzard's writing, fanfiction is just as good.

There's an occasional good idea, sure, but in general - no. The stuff suggested here is usually hilarious (in a bad way) at best and straight-up stupid at worst.

[DotEleven]

Wait.. What?? Are you among that tiny minority that could't see that Saurfang and Baine are traitors?

They're as much traitors as the rest of the Horde was when they turned on Garrosh.

[FuxieDK]

you realize traitors and patriots are the same and only differ in who's side wins... I hope.

Naaaah... Patriots fight for their country.... Traitors colude with the enemy.

[Pebrocks The Warlock]

From the horde PoV, the rebels rose up and took action to start infighting in the ranks during open war on multiple fronts, actively leaked information on military objectives to the enemy side and destroyed/stole military resources. Saurfang fled the field of battle as he was leading it to run into Alliance custody to return to take Orgrimmar with an alliance army. Baine killed crew and stole a ship to meet with the Grand Admiral of Kul Tiras and give away plans and tactics. Saurfang helped Jaina clean out a horde factory and destroyed a fortunes worth of military armaments...

honestly it's really dumb easy to show case the rebels as traitors and with the backdrop of the actively ongoing multi-front war going on... tie their actions to additional losses of lives for their faction. The only way they come out looking squeaky clean is the way the story railroaded into everyone unanimously forgetting everything and just blaming Sylvanas and her having another well timed breakdown/outburst.

IT also doesn't help that literally everything that would showcase the horde high command under sylvanas doing shady shit or the main terrible acts are either done in an active warzone (the killing and raising of troops happening as the gates are about to destroyed by an oncoming army) or happen off screen for horde (all the sanlayn bit or the horde invasion in the Stormsong valley leveling questline). Other events that horde might see happen after the alliance has invaded Dazar'alor and killed Rastakhan (another point where they have horde and alliance see happening in different ways)....

BFA is a really bad example of how to deliver the story cause it's like they're trying to not make one side the villains outright... but doing it anyways.

I was being sarcastic. I wanted to see him try to justify his obsession with Sylv.