Star Wars Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker

[Zaktar]

See, this is how the game works.

When Hamill says something you agree with, it's the Gospel! HE HATH SPOKEN. All shall bow down before the Hamill, for His word be law!

When he says something you don't agree with, it's "just lip service".

What you're doing is explicitly cherry-picking datum that support you, and excluding those which do not. It's a fundamentally dishonest way to approach discussion.

Also, why would he need to pay lip service at his age and at this stage of his career? What he said has the ring of truth, even if it's hard to say that TLJ is great, but hey if I were in it, I might think so.

[Ophenia]

"I really lowered my guard there because that's the kind of comment that you keep internal in the rehearsal process. It shouldn't be public and when I said it, it was still before I saw the film."

"I regret voicing my doubts & insecurities in public."

All he says here is that he gave his opinion before Disney's PR approves his speech and got fined for that, not much more

The same as Schwarzenegger saying he "loved" Genisys, then "changed his mind". He was just saying he loved Genisys because he had a contract and to help its promotion.

[Ragedaug]

Now, I'm not saying you couldn't go from "hero" Luke to crotchety old man Luke in this story, the execution just has to be WAY better and believable if you want to tear down 3 movie's worth of character building of Luke (doesn't help he's basically a no-show in TFA with no development). If anything, they should've spent way more time going into what happened with Luke to lead up to his current state in TLJ versus injecting scenes like Canto Bight and sub-par Space Balls quality joke scenes. Going from a champion of redemption to killing someone out of fear is not a quick fall, unless it's accidental. There are so many ways this could've been tackled, such as a string of failures over time weighing down on Luke to erode his mental state, training accident with Kylo causing Kylo to lose trust and have Luke doubt himself, Luke refusing to train Kylo if he's so concerned about his power and Kylo doesn't take well to it, the list is endless. Unfortunately, the version we got felt a helluva lot more like the emphasis was "we're going to subvert expectations with Luke!" versus focusing on crafting a narrative that's entertaining and/or believable surrounding Luke without the viewer having to constantly jump to many conclusions. Again, I'm fine if Luke falls, I just think the execution in TLJ was terrible and could've been so much better.

There's so much Rian's Luke does that betrays George's Luke, but this is definitely one of the more egregious examples. Luke goes from seeing the good in his father, who has committed genocidal level atrocities, and even offering to sacrifice himself to save and redeem his dad, to then deciding to kill his nephew in his sleep because maybe he might possibly turn to the dark side some time in the future and maybe will do bad things.

[Cosmic Janitor]

Also, why would he need to pay lip service at his age and at this stage of his career? What he said has the ring of truth, even if it's hard to say that TLJ is great, but hey if I were in it, I might think so.

Disney owns like 80% of hollywood at this point. In recent years Hamil got into voice acting, unless he wants to do nothing but indie productions for the rest of his life he will have to change his tune to find any roles in the future. And while google tells me that his net worth is around 18 million, it's questionable how liquid that money actually is at the end of the day.

It was obvious that he was everything but pleased with the movie at the time, some might say he was a passive agressive cunt about it, but by now he probably saw that being pissed about a shit movie won't help pay his bills when you are blacklisted by the mouse. Also if what he says is true, then they already filed him under "extra" as far as treatment goes, not even giving him unsupervised access to the script, while Boyega could casually forget his in some appartment.

[Ragedaug]

It would help if you did more than cherry-pick out a single quote from Hamill.

Here's some later statements, in reference to what he meant in that quote and how he sees this;

https://www.joe.ie/movies-tv/mark-ha...st-jedi-620610

"I really lowered my guard there because that's the kind of comment that you keep internal in the rehearsal process. It shouldn't be public and when I said it, it was still before I saw the film. I was still struggling with how the director was taking my character. I said to Rian 'a Jedi never gives up.' Even if I picked the next Hitler (Kylo Ren), it would be a shock but I certainly wouldn't cut off the telepathic connection that I have with my sister (Leia) and all these things....but I'm old school George Lucas Star Wars. This (The Last Jedi) is the next generation, it's not Luke's story anymore.

Rian is so capable, such a really wonderful person and such a good writer and such a good director. I thought that as long as I get these (criticisms) off my chest, I'll take his hand and follow him anywhere. It's better that I expressed these concerns because as long as he knew that this is how I felt, I figured 'let's try and make it work as best as we can' and we did."

https://www.themarysue.com/mark-hami...jedi-feelings/

"I regret voicing my doubts & insecurities in public.Creative differences are a common element of any project but usually remain private. All I wanted was to make good movie. I got more than that- @rianjohnson made an all-time GREAT one!"

and;

"I’ve had trouble accepting what [Johnson] saw for Luke, but again, I mean, I have to say, having seen the movie, I was wrong … I think being pushed out of your comfort zone is a good thing because if I was just another benevolent Jedi training young padawans, we’ve seen it! … It’s not the Luke from the original trilogy, it’s the Luke from the new generation."

Hamill was talking about his initial confusion and uncertainty. But he's acknowledged he was wrong, and that the The Last Jedi was a great film. That's the full context, here.

You are saying it would help because all these other quotes give context to the quote I picked, thus bolstering my point?
1) Mark completely disagrees with Rian's Luke (Mark didn't walk this back)
2) Mark acknowledges again that Rian's Luke isn't his Luke (Mark didn't walk this back)

The only thing Mark acknowledged as wrong was that he shouldn't have said it publicly. He literally says that in the quote you posted. Otherwise, he continues to point out why he disagrees with Rian's Luke.

[Elim Garak]

Oh, are we arguing now about how old people are not the same as their younger selves? Outrageous!

[eschatological]

....but the whole point of not showing Luke and Kylo's time at the Jedi Academy Luke founded was to have the very differing perspectives between Luke and Kylo about what happened.

It's literally one of the huge themes of the movie - how legend and history obscures and idolizes its characters to be unrecognizable from who they actually are. Kylo has a story about how an angry Luke was ready to kill him in his sleep and he managed to wake up and defend himself, Luke has a story about a momentary lapse of reason, a moment of doubt and shame where he felt he needed to act, and in the pause between the thought and the action, in a manner of massive, cosmically bad timing, his moment of doubt and shame was witnessed by Kylo, and Kylo reacted.

It's a brilliant bit of the movie, tbh. The unreliableness of both these people's flashback. If you have the actual "truth" of it via some present-day scenes of Luke and Kylo training and Luke slowly noticing the Dark Side creeping in, and then him touching Kylo's mind and seeing Snoke's machinations in there, then it's cut-and-dried, and boring.

Like, I honestly don't understand how people think Luke having a literal Jesus-in-the-Garden-of-Gethsemane moment is a bad thing.

[Ragedaug]

Like, I honestly don't understand how people think Luke having a literal Jesus-in-the-Garden-of-Gethsemane moment is a bad thing.

That part where Jesus was about to kill Peter for falling asleep, then stopped himself just in time? Yeah, that's not how the story goes. Questioning your duty, because you don't want to do it, is no where comparable to having a "whoopsie" moment where you almost kill your sister's kid.

If my nephew woke up seeing me point a loaded gun at his head, my sister would bring me up on charges. "Sorry sis, I wasn't thinking there for a minute when I was about to shoot your son". Should I cheat or lie? Sure, maybe momentary lapse in judgement. Should I kill my nephew? yeah...no.

[Zaktar]

In recent years Hamil got into voice acting

Fun fact, his voice acting career dates back to the 70s. He first played the joker over 25 years ago so... recently? Also, he's 68 and could do non-disney related projects for the rest of his life and live quite comfortably even if he had a net worth of zero, because he's Mark Hamill, well known for putting his stamp on several massive fictional characters. If it was about the money, he wouldn't have said it in the first place, he would have been a good little marketing tool.

[derpkitteh]

so, that dagger rey's holding. idk if disney has the good decision making to do this or not, but that dagger looks like rakatan technology.

i know what the dagger's supposed to be, but it REALLY looks like something the rakata would have made.

if disney makes the rakata canon, i might be able to consider the distant possibility of maybe at some point in the future for a brief window of time forgiving this travesty of a trilogy.

[Skulltaker]

....but the whole point of not showing Luke and Kylo's time at the Jedi Academy Luke founded was to have the very differing perspectives between Luke and Kylo about what happened.

It's literally one of the huge themes of the movie - how legend and history obscures and idolizes its characters to be unrecognizable from who they actually are. Kylo has a story about how an angry Luke was ready to kill him in his sleep and he managed to wake up and defend himself, Luke has a story about a momentary lapse of reason, a moment of doubt and shame where he felt he needed to act, and in the pause between the thought and the action, in a manner of massive, cosmically bad timing, his moment of doubt and shame was witnessed by Kylo, and Kylo reacted.

It's a brilliant bit of the movie, tbh. The unreliableness of both these people's flashback. If you have the actual "truth" of it via some present-day scenes of Luke and Kylo training and Luke slowly noticing the Dark Side creeping in, and then him touching Kylo's mind and seeing Snoke's machinations in there, then it's cut-and-dried, and boring.

Like, I honestly don't understand how people think Luke having a literal Jesus-in-the-Garden-of-Gethsemane moment is a bad thing.

Yeah, the problem is that it was a brilliant scene, but the circumstances that led to this point had to be tailored together afterward. We are supposed to believe that the man who thought that he could redeem Darth 'I could pave my castle with the lightsabers of Jedi I murdered' Vader would sense a flicker of or manipulations in his nephew and immediately went full Red Queen on him. It's the equivalent of the US sending B2 bombers with nukes towards Germany, just because there is a small increase in right-wing activities over here.

And the 'machinations' of Snoke open up a huge problem as well. If he was that powerful, where did he come from? And why did he suddenly go out like a little bitch, after completely dominating his adversaries?

Last Jedi has good elements, but they are held together by a tapestry of bad. Writing a movie around a few cool ideas you have for some good scenes usually ends as a clusterfuck. And this movie is a clusterfuck.

Is a chase through space on sparse resources a cool idea? Sure. If people weren't constantly leaving and returning. Or if there was only one ship, but in their effort to make the First Order this huge menace, they gave them dozens of ships, so, why not cut the fleeing ships off...?

Is betrayal for money from some outside crook whom you foolishly trusted an interesting concept? Sure. But he didn't really do anything crucial, since the first order could simply watch the Resistance transports leave.

Is Rey not having a magical destiny an interesting 'twist'? Sure, if they hadn't just spent an entire movie heavily hinting at a magical destiny. (Again, not a Rian Johnson but a lack of supervision problem.)

Is 'The industrial-military complex is evil!' a good message? Yes. But your friends are being slaughtered as we speak, get your priorities straight.

[Cosmic Janitor]

Fun fact, his voice acting career dates back to the 70s. He first played the joker over 25 years ago so... recently? Also, he's 68 and could do non-disney related projects for the rest of his life and live quite comfortably even if he had a net worth of zero, because he's Mark Hamill, well known for putting his stamp on several massive fictional characters. If it was about the money, he wouldn't have said it in the first place, he would have been a good little marketing tool.

He did like 1 role every 4-6 years in the 70s, since 2012 he does some reoccuring roles and pretty much one per year.

Also the concept of regretting something isn't exactly new. When people are pissed about something they tend to lose sight of the larger picture.

[Kokolums]

Rey's personality? I would describe it as she's "Stewart" but with maybe a tad more facial expressions..... That's kristen stewart btw

The way she is written, I almost feel like we are supposed to just copy and paste Luke's personality onto her and ASSUME all of her motivations are just like Luke motivations without actually having any character development for her.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

The way she is written, I almost feel like we are supposed to just copy and paste Luke's personality onto her and ASSUME all of her motivations are just like Luke motivations without actually having any character development for her.

Man, there was so much potential there. Rey's introductory scene in TFA is gold. You had a strong, core character motivation and story premise right there, all in five minutes with hardly any words. Then JJ threw it away for a ANH remake half way through the movie.

Imagine if didn't happen, if it suddenly hadn't become about the Empire and blowing up Death Star 3.0 and knock off Palpatine. What if had just remained a lowkey story about a girl trying to find her parents, trying to find closure. Trying to find a home. That could have been a story told in one or two movies. We didn't need all of that extra crap.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Yeah, the problem is that it was a brilliant scene, but the circumstances that led to this point had to be tailored together afterward. We are supposed to believe that the man who thought that he could redeem Darth 'I could pave my castle with the lightsabers of Jedi I murdered' Vader would sense a flicker of or manipulations in his nephew and immediately went full Red Queen on him. It's the equivalent of the US sending B2 bombers with nukes towards Germany, just because there is a small increase in right-wing activities over here.

You people have such selective memory’s. The same guy who tried to redeem Vader also tried to bloody kill him out of anger because he gave into the dark side. He does the exact same thing with kylo but instead of beating him to the ground and cutting his hand off he stops instantly.

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There's so much Rian's Luke does that betrays George's Luke, but this is definitely one of the more egregious examples. Luke goes from seeing the good in his father, who has committed genocidal level atrocities, and even offering to sacrifice himself to save and redeem his dad, to then deciding to kill his nephew in his sleep because maybe he might possibly turn to the dark side some time in the future and maybe will do bad things.

If only there was some kind of I don’t know force that could give you premonitions that also Tempted you to make rash acts based on emotion and not fall thought. If only luke had ever struggles with said force in the past and given into. I mean it’s not like there has ever been any kind of I don’t know order where people under the power of this name less force got trained since child hood to avoid such things though extreme measures like cutting all family ties.

But alas there is no such force in Starwars and every thing is based off nothing other then “Mabye hell do something bad”

[Skulltaker]

You people have such selective memory’s. The same guy who tried to redeem Vader also tried to bloody kill him out of anger because he gave into the dark side. He does the exact same thing with kylo but instead of beating him to the ground and cutting his hand off he stops instantly.

But he overcame that, which was a huge moment in his character development. And now there is supposed to be a relapse. He was tempted by the dark side but didn't fall, opposed to Anakin. Both were trying to protect someone they love, but one was seduced by the dark side and fell, and the other wasn't, at which point he became a Jedi. Facing his father's failure and not falling for the same temptation was his trial.

And circumstances were rather different as well. Vader and the Emperor had Luke and the entire Rebellion by the balls. It was do, or die. Luke and his pupils, on the other hand, weren't openly threatened by anyone. Even if Luke was aware of Snoke and his scheming, just sensing a possible outcome of the future in which Ben turns evil shouldn't be enough for him to outright reach for his Lightsaber, especially since he learned first chopped off hand that the future isn't written, but in motion.

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If only there was some kind of I don’t know force that could give you premonitions that also Tempted you to make rash acts based on emotion and not fall thought. If only luke had ever struggles with said force in the past and given into. I mean it’s not like there has ever been any kind of I don’t know order where people under the power of this name less force got trained since child hood to avoid such things though extreme measures like cutting all family ties.

But alas there is no such force in Starwars and every thing is based off nothing other then “Mabye hell do something bad”

If only there had been half a movie and its resolution in which a painful lesson about how premonitions are just possible outcomes shaped by your actions was learned. And an entire movie that even the worst of people can be returned from the abyss.

[Elim Garak]

But he overcame that, which was a huge moment in his character development. And now there is supposed to be a relapse. He was tempted by the dark side but didn't fall, opposed to Anakin. Both were trying to protect someone they love, but one was seduced by the dark side and fell, and the other wasn't, at which point he became a Jedi. Facing his father's failure and not falling for the same temptation was his trial.

A Jedi's trial is never over. Dark side tempts Jedi all the time. Their resistance is what makes them Jedi. It's not a bicycle. You can't just learn how to resist the cookies once and be done with it.

Luke is not different. Anakin was tempted multiple times and once he succumbed to it - it went only downhill. Luke resisted every time.

There's nothing out of character for him to be tempted again.

[Skulltaker]

A Jedi's trial is never over. Dark side tempts Jedi all the time. Their resistance is what makes them Jedi. It's not a bicycle. You can't just learn how to resist the cookies once and be done with it.

Luke is not different. Anakin was tempted multiple times and once he succumbed to it - it went only downhill. Luke resisted every time.

There's nothing out of character for him to be tempted again.

But there is with him directly going for the nuclear option. He tried to reason with friggin Darth Vader first.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

But he overcame that, which was a huge moment in his character development. And now there is supposed to be a relapse. He was tempted by the dark side but didn't fall, opposed to Anakin. Both were trying to protect someone they love, but one was seduced by the dark side and fell, and the other wasn't, at which point he became a Jedi. Facing his father's failure and not falling for the same temptation was his trial.

And circumstances were rather different as well. Vader and the Emperor had Luke and the entire Rebellion by the balls. It was do, or die. Luke and his pupils, on the other hand, weren't openly threatened by anyone. Even if Luke was aware of Snoke and his scheming, just sensing a possible outcome of the future in which Ben turns evil shouldn't be enough for him to outright reach for his Lightsaber, especially since he learned first chopped off hand that the future isn't written, but in motion.

pulling back does not mean it will never happen again this is something we again seem in his fight with Vader. First the emperor taunts him which leads him to attacking which he then pulls back from saying he won’t fight Vader only to give in again when leia is brought up. The dark side isn’t an on off switch that you never have to deal with again just because you managed to turn it off once. And guess what else happens in TLJ the dark side temps him but he doesn’t fall just like when he pulls back from killing Vader.

If only there had been half a movie and its resolution in which a painful lesson about how premonitions are just possible outcomes shaped by your actions was learned. And an entire movie that even the worst of people can be returned from the abyss.

Well it sure is a good thing that people act rational all the time and never ever give into the god luke force trying to temp them to lashing out. I mean it’s not like we have ever seen luke have to deal with that before even multiple times.

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But there is with him directly going for the nuclear option. He tried to reason with friggin Darth Vader first.

He went for the nuclear option every single time he was tempted by the dark side. First he try’s to kill the emperor which Vader stops then he try’s to kill Vader before pulling back after seeing Vader has a robot hand. What he does with kylo is far less nuclear then the other two as he never actually goes to strike he just lights his saber before pulling back.

[Elim Garak]

But there is with him directly going for the nuclear option. He tried to reason with friggin Darth Vader first.

Killing one person to prevent the coming of the sith is hardly a nuclear option and he only contemplated it. The actual attempt was from Ben's perspective - which is not entirely true, just like Luke's perspective wasn't.

Completely within the character of an older and wiser person.