Are We Getting Back Tier Sets in Shadowlands?

[Jikate-Stormrage]

I want class sets to return in a visual sense. I don’t enjoy looking like every other (insert armor type).

As for set bonuses, I want a mix of legiondary effects, azurite traits and essences.

I just don’t want them tied to gear. Instead I would prefer you unlock them through content (via boss kills, achievements, PvP kills (not rating)).

I want them to act as glyphs in your spell book, where you can drag them from a list you have earned and drop them on the abilities in your spell book. You can only have one applied to the spell at any given time, and maybe cap how many you can have active at one time. You can increase this, say... halfway through each tier to help with progression of slower guilds and speed up the higher guilds through farm content.

Few examples:

At x stacks, you gain 5% more damage on your next non-instant cast pyroblast. With x being 1-6.

At x stacks your next hard cast pyroblast creates an explosion, hitting each mob standing in your fire patch (I forget the spells name, please forgive me) for x amount of damage. Each cast of fireball grants 1 stack.

Each cast of fireball that hits a target in your fire patch (apologies again) you gain 1 stack of firestorm. At 5 stacks, a fiery meteor falls from the sky centered on your fire patch.


Hell hath no Fury: At 10 stacks, the fury warrior descended into a maddening rage, ignoring 20% of the targets armor for 8 seconds. After 8 seconds the warrior regains their bearing, and the effects subside. Each melee attack by the warrior has a chance to increase the stack by .20% (I’m not great with numbers, others are).

Mad Alchemist: Every 20 applications of poison, the rogue pulls a poison vial from their pocket and smashes it to the ground, infecting all enemies within 10 feet of impact.

Object of your desire: Your poisons do not spread to other mobs, but hit 4 times harder on the lone target. You can only poison one target at a time.

Imminent demise: Your enemies realize they have been poisoned, increasing their heart rates. Your poisons now damage 3 times faster, increased by haste.

These are just a few ideas. But they should revolve around core abilities and not really utility ones. They should be balanced within each other, meaning single target ones should be near in line with each other. Same with aoe options.

This gives choice to the player, as it changes the way the player chooses to play, how they build their character etc. Take the rogue options for poisons. They could go heavy haste in aoe situations, or heavy crit for single target. Or they could go for consistent gains with the guaranteed poison vial each 20 poison applications. Again, someone out there is both more creative than I, and better at number tuning.

But my idea I think can stand on its own. Allow choice through altering existing spells, they enhancements themselves are content. But make them targetable. You kill x boss, you gain the augment on the loot table. You kill 1k players in PvP, you get another option. 5k, 10k, 15k. You complete a +5 and + 10, two more options. Complete 50, 100, 150, 200 WQs you get a few more.

My main interest is having options that I choose to alter my gameplay, my rotation. You could even add seasonal ones that are fun and meant to be stupid batshit crazy for holiday periods.

- - - Updated - - -

Additional post:

Imagine an augment available only during Valentine’s Day that allows you to charm a non boss NPC to follow you for the next two minutes and do your bidding.


Imagine an augment to your filler spell that turns it into a snowball that knocks your target back 10 feet on impact available only during Xmas.

Imagine a 4th of July (or the Independence Day of another region) where an augment is available that has the chance of your filler spell creating a fireworks blast at your targets location that causes them to all be dazed in a 10 foot radius.

Not all content must be serious progressive tools. These augments could make some very interesting situations during the small periods they are made available.

[Nfinitii]

I’d like to c tier sets, but ultimately I want to c more.

The game needs changes to class design, talents and gearing all together.

I feel like bl3 has a great system. Obviously there will always be a best. But wow doesn’t have any room to explore for those who don’t care about min-maxing.

[Rumfoord]

How is that a pro?
That you have get more Azerite pieces in order to fully play your offspec?


Serious question, do you even think about what you are writing or do you just write down the differences between Set bonus and Azerite and count them as Pro for Azerite without even considering what those actual differences are?

100% this. Getting gear for an off-spec is 100x's grindier/RNG dependent under the azerite system vs tier (you literally just had to change specs). Not to mention it takes up WAY more room in my bags.

Lack of tier and the Azerite system were a large part in why I stopped raiding in BFA. I don't need more *GENERIC LOOKING LEATHER SETS* that are BiS now but wont be next week because Blizzard can't handle balancing this many Azerite traits.

[kaminaris]

If you were using all 6 pieces, that means those were perfectly itemized and are your BiS items even without a Set bonus.
I've rarely seen such a self defeating argument.

Self defeating? You read what you wrote? How is locking 6 slots of gear in 3rd week of raid a good thing? No it's not, its garbage itemization that should go away.

That aside, the fact people now gobble up the word "locked" because Ion used it in some interview to describe why sets aren't returning shows how easily some people simply copy their arguments from Blizzard without thinking about it.

I used word locked before ion was even game director. So that is simply amusing thinking I did not think about it.

"Locked" is just another word for "BiS", if you are locked in a slot, you already have your BiS item, it's amazing how the devs managed to turn something that players like (=Best in Slot items) into something Players seemingly are supposed to dislike (=being "locked" in a slot).

"BiS list" was garbage game design I came to realization the moment I stepped into mythic raiding (which was around Siege of Orgrimmar), because I had NOTHING to raid for, nothing could drop for me, and there was no challenge at all since tiers were cleared.

I have no idea why Legendaries and Artifact are part of the discussion now, but anyway.
1.We currently have an Artifact (Heart of Azeroth)

Neck itself is just a fancy neckes, in no way overpowered compared to what artifact weapon was, that is the problem, when one piece of gear beats all other items combined.

2.Legendaries make a return in Shadowlands

No, they do not return in shadowlands, we are getting craftable orange gear with special effects, not legendaries. Ever heard of saying "if everyone is special, nobody is special"?

Also, Artifact weapons had Relics as compensation.

That was even dumber thing since it completely overpowered all other gear, not to mention you had to farm relics for each spec, so 3 more slots BUT PER SPEC. You could not "reforge" your relics to put them in offspec weapon.

How is that a pro?
That you have get more Azerite pieces in order to fully play your offspec?

I don't have to but I can if I don't want to visit reforger and get better pieces. Thing is, even if those pieces are not perfect for offspecs, they are not useless as people think they are. As opposed to not having any choice at all in tier sets. So if your set sucked, you sometimes played with previous tier set, or without it. You had no choice in this matter.

Serious question, do you even think about what you are writing or do you just write down the differences between Set bonus and Azerite and count them as Pro for Azerite without even considering what those actual differences are?

Dude, I made a damn comparison chart about half a year ago on this forum about azerite gear vs tier sets. I've been raiding for far too long to know all the pros and cos of both solutions. It takes me 0.002s to instantly find a winner = azerite gear.

[Guildenstern]

So I think we have a shaky consensus here in everyone wanting a visual difference of sets.

We will literally get shit though. Blandest expansion yet incoming, do any of you really believe they are going to put more effort than they absolutely must to appease the crowd?

So far 'fans' (lemmings that will eat shit if blizzard calls it cake) reaction to Shadowblands has been in the neutral positive area, which makes sociopaths like Ion believe he is going to get away with this lackluster perfomance and it's making him even bolder. His product quality is going to keep decreasing progressively. It's a vicious circle!

[Kralljin]

Self defeating? You read what you wrote? How is locking 6 slots of gear in 3rd week of raid a good thing?

How do you come up with 6 items?
Again, no one wears the full set unless it has the perfect stats.

By the way, getting a regular piece from Mythic, which has your best stats, is no different from a tier item, it will be BiS.

In a world where Titanforging (or any equivalent system) exists, it will take a huge amount of luck to straight up get a BiS piece within the first three weeks.

"BiS list" was garbage game design I came to realization the moment I stepped into mythic raiding (which was around Siege of Orgrimmar)

Perhaps joining the final raid tier, that lasted by no less than a whole year might have influenced this in some fashion...?
I've been raiding for over a decade by now, in order to achieve BiS, you had to clear a raid pretty fast and then usually farm it for the entire tier.

The amount of people that achieved BiS gear in a tier that doesn't last 10+months was even before War / Titanforging extremely low and if then, usually ocurred near the end of tier.

And the alternative to "BiS" is the RNG fiesta known as Titanforging, where anything can still potentially become better, which doesn't really serve as a decent incentive for a tier that lasts over 6+ months.

By the way, the only serious advantage that Azerite pieces have in my opinion are (ironically) that they cannot titanforge.
Therefore you are able to acquire your BiS Azerite pieces pretty quickly if they come from a raid (which they do in the next raid, because Blizz decided that all Azerite pieces have the BiS traits for each spec).

So, the thing you hate, "being locked in a slot", is achieved via the system you so vehemently defend.

Neck itself is just a fancy neckes, in no way overpowered compared to what artifact weapon was

You were just counting down the slots that were locked.
So the Neck counts in the same.

No, they do not return in shadowlands, we are getting craftable orange gear with special effects, not legendaries. Ever heard of saying "if everyone is special, nobody is special"?

You are seriously fucking up the reason why i wrote this.
You (for some reason i still don't understand) brought up Legion legendaries, so i replied that those will be returning.

That was even dumber thing since it completely overpowered all other gear

Okay mate.
This discussion never was about the Legion artifacts, nor their relics, i pointed out that your little counting of being "locked" into slots is kinda garbage in the greater perspective.
Legion Artifacts, unlike the neck, also had Relics, that's it, so you could still do something with your weapon in form of item drops, unlike the neck.

If you read anything more into this, that's not my fault.
Because remember, you were the one who brought Legion artifact into this discussion in the first place.

As opposed to not having any choice at all in tier sets.

On the other hand, those sets by the time of WoD simply changed their bonus to your current specialization.
No "Reforger" required.
No "But this piece is so much better for spec X and i have to choose whether i spent my currency on Azerite X,Y or Z".

If you a had set bonus, you had the set bonus for all specs, that's it.
100% flexible, unlike Azerite.

So if your set sucked, you sometimes played with previous tier set, or without it. You had no choice in this matter.

And again, this has been more the exception than the rule.

Dude, I made a damn comparison chart about half a year ago on this forum about azerite gear vs tier sets. I've been raiding for far too long to know all the pros and cos of both solutions. It takes me 0.002s to instantly find a winner = azerite gear.

Thank god i missed that thread.

Also, "raiding far too long"? You above admitted that you've started to raid mythic with SoO, that's still rather fresh in my opinion.

[Lollis]

We can have tier sets back (other than aesthetically) when the bonuses are a maximum of 2, maybe 3 pieces while the set as a whole is made up of at least 6.

Fact is, tier sets locked your slots far more than azerite gear ever can, and often the set bonuses were so strong that dropping them for pretty much anything other than another tier set was simply a hps/dps loss even if the individual item in question was superior. And then we get to the part where you are the one in your raid NOT getting set items dropping for you; it's the fucking worst.

[kaminaris]

How do you come up with 6 items?
Again, no one wears the full set unless it has the perfect stats.

Have you played this game? Im starting to wonder, its 2+4 or 4+2, not 6 pieces of the same gear.

By the way, getting a regular piece from Mythic, which has your best stats, is no different from a tier item, it will be BiS.

In a world where Titanforging (or any equivalent system) exists, it will take a huge amount of luck to straight up get a BiS piece within the first three weeks.

You keep using BiS like its an obsession. You do not need forged item to have tier set bonus which itself is powerful enough.

Perhaps joining the final raid tier, that lasted by no less than a whole year might have influenced this in some fashion...?
I've been raiding for over a decade by now, in order to achieve BiS, you had to clear a raid pretty fast and then usually farm it for the entire tier.

Again, obsession with BiS. This is funny as next tier invalidated all that BiS so it never existed. You DID NOT have to get BiS to deal decent damage nor to clear entire raid tier, ever.
And I have been raiding since then with breaks in legion.

The amount of people that achieved BiS gear in a tier that doesn't last 10+months was even before War / Titanforging extremely low and if then, usually ocurred near the end of tier.

Again, obsession with BiS. You said you raided for 10+ years and did not come to realization that gear is a fukken tool? A means to an end? At the end of a day its still getting invalidated each raid tier?

And the alternative to "BiS" is the RNG fiesta known as Titanforging, where anything can still potentially become better, which doesn't really serve as a decent incentive for a tier that lasts over 6+ months.

Yeah it can be better if you have godlike luck or just finally realize you can stop caring about gear and just have fun/challenge? I did not care about gear back then, do not care about it now. Biggest plus about titanforging is that there is NON-ZERO chance of upgrade while repeatedly doing some content.

By the way, the only serious advantage that Azerite pieces have in my opinion are (ironically) that they cannot titanforge.
Therefore you are able to acquire your BiS Azerite pieces pretty quickly if they come from a raid (which they do in the next raid, because Blizz decided that all Azerite pieces have the BiS traits for each spec).

Then you do not understand gearing system at all. Advantages are:

- It can be obtained outside of raid
- It is custimizable
- Locks only 3 slots
- Has vendor which you can buy specific piece.

So, the thing you hate, "being locked in a slot", is achieved via the system you so vehemently defend.

No I am not locked, I can swap it when im going offspec or different playstyle - EP vs Baleful, even if we assume I am "Locked" to some pieces, its still half the slots of tier sets, AND I CAN STILL chose which traits I will be using. Not being forced to play the way devs wants me to.

You were just counting down the slots that were locked.
So the Neck counts in the same.

Yes it does count.

You are seriously fucking up the reason why i wrote this.
You (for some reason i still don't understand) brought up Legion legendaries, so i replied that those will be returning.

I only mentioned legiondaries because with all that crap, we had like 5 gear slots left.

Okay mate.
This discussion never was about the Legion artifacts, nor their relics, i pointed out that your little counting of being "locked" into slots is kinda garbage in the greater perspective.
Legion Artifacts, unlike the neck, also had Relics, that's it, so you could still do something with your weapon in form of item drops, unlike the neck.

That is a whole different story, unlike normal gear, relics:
- Could not be swapped (you destroyed socketed one)
- Could not be used in offspec.

They were not a gear. Cannot count this shit design as one.

On the other hand, those sets by the time of WoD simply changed their bonus to your current specialization.
No "Reforger" required.
No "But this piece is so much better for spec X and i have to choose whether i spent my currency on Azerite X,Y or Z".

Yeah thats cool and you had to play by dev's vision. I loved having instant aimed shot in WoD, thats why I have good memories with clearing HFC. Guess what?
Now its gone. Like bonuses from legiondaries, like all previous sets, like any damn rental power gear.
You had cool 4set, then next one was boring flat damage upgrade? Well it sucks.

If you a had set bonus, you had the set bonus for all specs, that's it.
100% flexible, unlike Azerite.

Sets were as flexible as concrete wall.

And again, this has been more the exception than the rule.

Oh please, in WoD mages were using T3 or some other ancient set to boost their damage... Don't remember that?

Thank god i missed that thread.

Also, "raiding far too long"? You above admitted that you've started to raid mythic with SoO, that's still rather fresh in my opinion.

It's not about time frame, its about commitment. I know people who raided from vanilla beta and still can't figure out this.

[Kralljin]

Have you played this game? Im starting to wonder, its 2+4 or 4+2, not 6 pieces of the same gear.

Yeah, but i don't think you understand what (4) in front a Tier set means.

You do not need forged item to have tier set bonus which itself is powerful enough.

And you don't need to wear six pieces to get the full bonus.
You had four pieces to choose from the total of six.

Again, obsession with BiS. You said you raided for 10+ years and did not come to realization that gear is a fukken tool?

Well, before Legion, gear felt more closer to a reward from raiding than "just a tool".

Biggest plus about titanforging is that there is NON-ZERO chance of upgrade while repeatedly doing some content.

And the worst part of it that it sucks any enjoyment out of getting regular pieces and ruins the value of individual pieces.
A flaw of the system that Blizzard even admitted.

- It is custimizable

There are good pieces and bad pieces.
Illusion of choice is the keyword here.

- Has vendor which you can buy specific piece.

Good thing that doesn't involve 10 weeks of waiting to buy a single piece or playing the lottery to get the right one.
Ignoring what this means for people who want to play an offspec but still have the best pieces for that.

Not being forced to play the way devs wants me to.

This is a hollow argument, you can do whatever you want.
If you want to play in a non optimized fashion, that's your choice.

I only mentioned legiondaries because with all that crap, we had like 5 gear slots left.

And that added absolutely nothing to this discussion.

like any damn rental power gear.

Did you seriously believe you'd keep your Azerite armor?
In case you didn't notice, "rental power" has been Blizzards theme since Legion.

The entire system of Azerite armor is built upon the fact that players can just move on from it without suffering the same power loss as coming out of Legion.

If you dislike this aspect of current WoW, i'd recommend you to not bother with WoW anymore, because you also will not be allowed to keep the new fancy Covenant Ability, Soulbind passives or Shadowlands legendaries.

Azerite amor isn't even an answer to this problem but rather it simply being subject to this design philosophy as well.

You had cool 4set, then next one was boring flat damage upgrade? Well it sucks.

Yeah, now we get to keep the same playstyle over the course of the entire expansion, that's amazing.
Especially the part where i have to re earn the very same bonus i already have, just with higher numbers, feels so good.
Which is again, a flaw of the system that Blizzard even admitted.

Let alone how restrictive the design of these bonuses are because they always need to have some absolute numeric bonus due to Ilvl scaling.

Sets were as flexible as concrete wall.

I hit the button to change my spec, the set bonus adjust accordingly.
I hit the button to change my spec, my Azerite armor doesn't give a shit.

Pretty flexible for a concrete wall.

Oh please, in WoD mages were using T3 or some other ancient set to boost their damage... Don't remember that?

Blizzard hotfixed the usage of any items from previous expansion pretty quickly.
The entire thing has been nuked since Legion because any setbonus from previous expansions are by default disabled on maxlevel.

It's not about time frame, its about commitment.

Too bad you only mentioned timeframe.
"i did raid mythic from SoO" is a broad statement.

And by the way, if you were a "committed" mythic raider, things such as customization in your playstyle aren't a big thing anyway, you play that what sims best.

[kaminaris]

Yeah, but i don't think you understand what (4) in front a Tier set means.

Then better start believing cause i played in both of these configurations.

And you don't need to wear six pieces to get the full bonus.
You had four pieces to choose from the total of six.

Do you even understand how sets worked? I don't think you do.
Some classes had powerful previous-tier 2 set bonus which easily overpowered normal gear. In some cases, new bonus was so lame blizzard hard to buff it so that people won't play with 2+4 configuration. And since sets had usually SIX slots, you could wear 4+2 or 2+4.

Well, before Legion, gear felt more closer to a reward from raiding than "just a tool".

No? It never felt that way, maybe except the very first time I started doing raids. Up until next raid tier when I understood all that gear I wanted before is now garbage.

And the worst part of it that it sucks any enjoyment out of getting regular pieces and ruins the value of individual pieces.
A flaw of the system that Blizzard even admitted.

Great, they admitted it adding even more RNG filled system. Just great.

There are good pieces and bad pieces.
Illusion of choice is the keyword here.

It's not illusion of a choice, thing is, most classes has some choice in there, sometimes you want to sacrifice a bit of damage to be tougher. Or sacrifice some single target damage for AOE, or you know you won't be standing near enemies so that-defensive-trait is going to be useless. Its not illusion.

Good thing that doesn't involve 10 weeks of waiting to buy a single piece or playing the lottery to get the right one.
Ignoring what this means for people who want to play an offspec but still have the best pieces for that.

10 weeks? No, 4-6 weeks. Not to mention you can simply drop it from mythic raid.

And you ignored most important advantage. Being obtainable from outside of raid.

This is a hollow argument, you can do whatever you want.
If you want to play in a non optimized fashion, that's your choice.

No, that is completely and utterly wrong. Not having set bonus was not "non optimized" it was straight up not viable. While Azerite gear has usually about 3-4 viable choices.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/ra...ec=Destruction

Top 10:
crashing chaos
flashpoint
Rolling havoc
Chaotic inferno
Chaos shards
Bursting flare
Loyal to the end

Yes there are some classes that needs to stack 3x of one trait but choice is up to 6. So there is always some options there.

Did you seriously believe you'd keep your Azerite armor?
In case you didn't notice, "rental power" has been Blizzards theme since Legion.

Rental power gear was since vanilla, in legion it became a plague. I knew you mention this so I immediately know you did not thought about this well.
So what is the biggest difference? Well we have those traits (bonuses) for entire expansion, not just one raid tier.

The entire system of Azerite armor is built upon the fact that players can just move on from it without suffering the same power as coming out of Legion.

Well if blizzard won't implement such gear in shadowlands then we are screwed.

If you dislike this aspect of current WoW, i'd recommend you to not bother with WoW anymore, because you also will not be allowed to keep the new fancy Covenant Ability, Soulbind passives or Shadowlands legendaries.

Azerite amor isn't even an answer to this problem but rather it simply being subject to this design philosophy as well.

Who said I dislike it? It won't bother me in the slightest as much as losing essences, covenant abilities and shadowlegendaries. That is going to be a problem and people will cry (again).

Yeah, now we get to keep the same playstyle over the course of the entire expansion, that's amazing.

That is one of the best parts of it.

Especially the part where i have to re earn the very same bonus i already have, just with higher numbers, feels so good.

Oh please stop with that bullshit, you only had to re-earn some garbage minuscule defensive traits. It wasn't even a problem. Major dps traits were unlocked already.

Let alone how restrictive the design of these bonuses are because they always need to have some absolute numeric bonus due to Ilvl scaling.

Blizzard always sucked with numeric balance, exactly like playerbase is completely immune to basic math knowledge.

I hit the button to change my spec, the set bonus adjust accordingly.
I hit the button to change my spec, my Azerite armor doesn't give a shit.

Pretty flexible for a concrete wall.

That is not what flexibility is about. You got it completely wrong. Flexibility is being able to adjust it to any situation. It is more like:

You hit respec button - tier set changes to one shit
you hit respec button - azerite gear can be reforged, or you can swap to entirely different piece, good to M+.

Blizzard hotfixed the usage of any items from previous expansion pretty quickly.
The entire thing has been nuked since Legion because any setbonus from previous expansions are by default disabled on maxlevel.

Quickly? It took them good couple of expansions. Because this problem existed like since Wotlk.

Too bad you only mentioned timeframe.
"i did raid mythic from SoO" is a broad statement.

And by the way, if you were a "committed" mythic raider, things such as customization in your playstyle aren't a big thing anyway, you play that what sims best.

LOL NO, i don't. I play what suits me the best. I can go offspec to some bosses if it's absolutely necessary but other than that I do not care what sims the best.
I had my share of pushing to the limits, now I just don't care anymore and play for fun/challenge.

That being said I have 12(11) classes since then, can play pretty much any spec, know them inside out, did 36 mage towers and I am author of MaxDps addon.

[Monster Hunter]

class visual sets id like to see return. especially as the last few expac's i have explored individual races takes on class themes like the antorus shaman set.

tier sets that have collectable bonuses though. nah, i miss how it changed up game play raid tier to raid tier but i think there is better ways to do that and blizzard was using tier sets as a crutch to prop up under performing classes mid expansion instead of just fixing them, not only that it fucked with M+ and people who see M+ as there main activity. and onto of the tier sets are a part of the reason why blizz went down the weird template pvp route back in legion, tier bonuses have always fucked with pvp balance and have either required more powerful pvp bonuses set to be made to drown them out or some form of artificial shenanigans added to pvp gear like resilience to keep pve tier sets out of pvp.

as for shadowlands i don't think theres gonna be anything different planned to how bfa operated in regards to tier sets either visual or bonuses.

[threads]

no tier sets killed raiding for me. after uldir i didn't even bother.

[PaladinBash]

Yeah see the thing is this. Tier sets are either good or shit. Azerite traits are always good, assuming you can get the ones you need from the dust lottery. This just brings us to a situation of "things will always be good without effort or bad no matter what you do" vs RNG which is pretty much how loot always works in this game.

[Roujeaux]

I could see tier sets as visual armor returning at some point, but I think tier set bonuses would be best served as some sort of endgame talent tree implementation that isn't tied to external RNG elements.

[Kralljin]

Some classes had powerful previous-tier 2 set bonus which easily overpowered normal gear. In some cases, new bonus was so lame blizzard hard to buff it so that people won't play with 2+4 configuration. And since sets had usually SIX slots, you could wear 4+2 or 2+4.

Afaik, only Frost mages did that in ToS during Legion.
And by the way, Blizzard buffing / nerfing stuff is normal.

I also haven't mentioned Blizzards Buff / nerf rollercoaster of Azerite traits during the start of BfA, despite it obviously having a lot of negative side effect due to those nerfs / buffs impacting the gear you already have.

No? It never felt that way, maybe except the very first time I started doing raids. Up until next raid tier when I understood all that gear I wanted before is now garbage.

Maybe should've started raiding before split raiding was a thing.
Because before SoO, you kinda used a lot of your gear from the previous raid into the progress of the next one.
So yeah, that gear still had value.

Great, they admitted it adding even more RNG filled system. Just great.

Well, i don't like corruption, but at least they're willing to change the system.
I'd prefer if there was no system at all necessary, but that's another discussion.

Its not illusion.

Well, we used to have this smaller customization as well, through Glyphs and whatnot.
Too bad it now has to be tied to gear.

10 weeks? No, 4-6 weeks. Not to mention you can simply drop it from mythic raid.

Buying a specific piece takes about 10 weeks, unless you are clearing high keys.

No, that is completely and utterly wrong. Not having set bonus was not "non optimized" it was straight up not viable.

And playing with the wrong Azerite traits is also not viable.

Yes there are some classes that needs to stack 3x of one trait but choice is up to 6. So there is always some options there.

Now pick something like Ele or Balance and your trait options shrivel up.

Well if blizzard won't implement such gear in shadowlands then we are screwed.

Heard them talking about it?
I didn't.

So what is the biggest difference? Well we have those traits (bonuses) for entire expansion, not just one raid tier.

Set bonuses having a greater impact on your playstyle.
That i actually got new stuff once a tier was released and possibly play a different build and not just play the same build for the entire expansion.
Because that is the flipside if it your playstyle not changing, if you don't like it, you're fucked.

Who said I dislike it? It won't bother me in the slightest as much as losing essences, covenant abilities and shadowlegendaries. That is going to be a problem and people will cry (again).

Considering you kept complaining over "losing a set bonus", i'd figure that some consistency would exist there.
Guess i was wrong.

Oh please stop with that bullshit, you only had to re-earn some garbage minuscule defensive traits. It wasn't even a problem. Major dps traits were unlocked already.

It's not BS.
Looking for the same traits every new tier is damn tiring.
I'd rather have something that changes my playstyle than to constantly work to preserve my current playstyle.

Must be even more tiring if you are a M+ player, where you just buy literally the same piece each season.

Blizzard always sucked with numeric balance

So let's go with a system that's even requires more fine tuning and is even more prune to have negative impact on players if you start to buff / nerf things?

That is not what flexibility is about.

It is.
It has been one of the major criticism of the Azerite systems how utterly unflexible this is for people who play multiple specs.
That those people have to pay up to make their Azerite pieces useable for a different spec or have to acquire multiple pieces in order to get the right traits for their offspec.

This issues did not exist with tier sets, because those simply adapted to your specialization.

Quickly? It took them good couple of expansions. Because this problem existed like since Wotlk.

Yeah, i'm rather curious now what this Mage Tier 3 Set bonus was and what made it so OP.

LOL NO, i don't. I play what suits me the best. I can go offspec to some bosses if it's absolutely necessary but other than that I do not care what sims the best.

So you just mentioned that bit about a mythic raider for shits and giggles?
Like what is your point?

That being said I have 12(11) classes since then, can play pretty much any spec, know them inside out, did 36 mage towers and I am author of MaxDps addon.

Okay, been a hardcore raider since late Cata, got Glad mounts and know almost any nook and cranny of this game.

Who's right now?

[kaminaris]

Afaik, only Frost mages did that in ToS during Legion.
And by the way, Blizzard buffing / nerfing stuff is normal.

Multiple classes did that per expansion, so not only frost mages but hunters as well. Especially in legion like half of specs did 4+2 config. I can't really remember how it was in previous expansions prior to legion but I am pretty sure it did happen.

I also haven't mentioned Blizzards Buff / nerf rollercoaster of Azerite traits during the start of BfA, despite it obviously having a lot of negative side effect due to those nerfs / buffs impacting the gear you already have.

Like talents/trinkets, nothing new, not argument against it. Blizzard just sucks at balancing.

Maybe should've started raiding before split raiding was a thing.
Because before SoO, you kinda used a lot of your gear from the previous raid into the progress of the next one.
So yeah, that gear still had value.

Yeah no it always worked like this. Still does, however after getting new gear old one is mostly garbage.
Having to farm old raids for gear is even worse idea.

Well, i don't like corruption, but at least they're willing to change the system.
I'd prefer if there was no system at all necessary, but that's another discussion.

Titanforged was changed at least 3 times. Because of complaints.

Well, we used to have this smaller customization as well, through Glyphs and whatnot.
Too bad it now has to be tied to gear.

Thats one thing we agree on. Power should not come from rental gear. Tho glyph system was garbage, idea was good, execution was piss poor.

Buying a specific piece takes about 10 weeks, unless you are clearing high keys.

Its not the only source of TR, count again, cause I did. With nazjatar it is even easier (and practically limitless).

And playing with the wrong Azerite traits is also not viable.

It is, difference between having 4 set and not having it at all is like having bis traits vs having only 3 top tier traits selected out of 6 on azerite gear.

Quick calculations, tier sets gave you around 10-20% of power (cause blizzard band-aid classes this way).
Triple top tier trait gives you around 4k dps,
so assuming you do around ~40k dps single target, that means triple trait is worth 10%
Using subpar traits 3-3.5K is a 0.5-1K difference in dps = 1.25-2.5%

So no, you are wrong.

Now pick something like Ele or Balance and your trait options shrivel up.

One or two examples doesn't make it a rule. Thing is, you need to know your math. 10% of tier set bonus is still far from 1.25-2.5% from using different traits.
Disparity is bigger with aoe in mind but we can't have everything.

Heard them talking about it?
I didn't.

They only said they will be exploring possibilities. But if they want to return to old shit tier sets then better to not have them at all.

Set bonuses having a greater impact on your playstyle.

Completely and utterly false. Check old APL in git history of simcraft repository. Here is a link:
https://github.com/simulationcraft/s...a-dev/profiles

here you go, T21:
https://github.com/simulationcraft/s...rofiles/Tier21

https://www.wowhead.com/tier-21-armor-sets-antorus

Changing playstyle:
DK - None
DH - None
Druid - Almost none
Hunter - Almost none
Mage - None
Monk - None
Paladin - Ret had a slight change
Priest - Almost none
Rogue - Slight change in Outlaw/Sub
Shaman - Almost none
Warlock - Almost none
Warrior - Slight change in Prot


Tier sets were nowhere near azerite gear when it comes to changing playstyle. Vast majority of tier sets were just flat damage upgrades.

That i actually got new stuff once a tier was released and possibly play a different build and not just play the same build for the entire expansion.
Because that is the flipside if it your playstyle not changing, if you don't like it, you're fucked.

That was the problem of tier sets, not azerite gear. One time I got awesome set bonus, next time it completely sucked.

Considering you kept complaining over "losing a set bonus", i'd figure that some consistency would exist there.
Guess i was wrong.

It is consistent, you just can't understand there is a difference between losing something mid-expansion vs having it entire expansion.

It's not BS.
Looking for the same traits every new tier is damn tiring.
I'd rather have something that changes my playstyle than to constantly work to preserve my current playstyle.

Must be even more tiring if you are a M+ player, where you just buy literally the same piece each season.

Well except, tier sets rarely changed your playstyle. Vast majority of tier sets were just flat damage upgrades.
But if you happened to get one awesome (like HFC MM hunter one), you will be extremely disappointed with anything else.
And since new tier never had the same bonus as before, you knew it from the start.

So let's go with a system that's even requires more fine tuning and is even more prune to have negative impact on players if you start to buff / nerf things?

It doesn't require more fine tuning, you need to calculate it yourself if you don't understand why. Blizzard already got better at tuning.

It is.
It has been one of the major criticism of the Azerite systems how utterly unflexible this is for people who play multiple specs.
That those people have to pay up to make their Azerite pieces useable for a different spec or have to acquire multiple pieces in order to get the right traits for their offspec.

This issues did not exist with tier sets, because those simply adapted to your specialization.

That is not a flexibility. That is just convenience.
Flexibility is adapting to situation. Having more options.

With tier sets it looked like this:
You are in spec A? Here, have this bonus and fuck off.
You are in spec B? Here, another bonus and fuck off.
Don't like it? Fuck off
Not a raider? Fuck off
Want more Aoe? Fuck off

Yeah, i'm rather curious now what this Mage Tier 3 Set bonus was and what made it so OP.

I don't remember it exactly but it made CD of evocation shorter, mages used it before fight and then they could do double burst dps on start. Just before pull started, they changed back to current tier.

So you just mentioned that bit about a mythic raider for shits and giggles?
Like what is your point?

Point is simple, people who complain about azerite gear have goldfish memory and/or don't understand problems of tier sets.
Blizzard did, that is why we probably won't have them anymore (hopefully).
I did quite a lot of raids in my time and i am aware that tier sets were garbage.

Okay, been a hardcore raider since late Cata, got Glad mounts and know almost any nook and cranny of this game.

Who's right now?

It just means you didn't learn that gear has no meaning in this game.

[Beefkow]

The only reason I raided was to obtain that tier bonus, it felt great getting 2nd set or 4th set.

Now that azerite is the new tier sets and it's obtainable via any content imaginable, there is 0 reason to raid.
@Kralljin

Don't bother having a discussion with Kaminaris, what he is saying is solely his opinion, whether it may sound completely illogical or not, his opinion is no better than your opinion.

[Kithelle]

Actually tier sets and the bonuses were likely the very best thing in WoW. A huge nail in the coffin of WoW for me.

Yup...because the best thing about WoW was unpredictable set bonuses that could be absolutely worthless or leaving you passing on upgrades because of how good they are!

[Depakote]

Nah tier sets are boring and Azerite armor in theory is a better system blizzard just sucks at implementation. We can debate about it if you want.

Found the blizzard employee.

[Halyon]

I hated that they got rid of tier sets. It’s one of the things I like the most about leveling a new class, seeing the xmogs I can collect.

I agree with the xmog part, but the set bonuses can stay gone.

- - - Updated - - -

Tier sets allowed for the potential for a complete change in gameplay each tier. I've been raiding on the same class for a decade now, and only seeing a significant change every expansion is not enough for me personally. So, unless they added brand new azerite skills every single tier that change your rotations/gameplay as significantly as some of the tiers sets have in the past, then they aren't even remotely comparable. Imo.

That's not always good or desired. I like Demon Hunter, I despise Momentum. If they re-introduced tier sets, and let's say that tier set made momentum really good, I would lose interest in a hurry.

Sure, I can play something sub-optimal, but I don't want to do that either. I don't like wasting my own, or other people's time by being less effective. I hate when tier sets pigeonhole a specific playstyle, or frontload specific talents and whatnot, it's not engaging to me at all.