Mythic is too tight, guilds are dying

[asil]

I've been getting CEs since CEs were a thing and the difficulty right now is pants on head retarded compared to what it was like in MoP and even WoD. There's zero excuse for having encounters so difficult in game that is as old as WoW and with an aging community. But people like you will never admit it because killing "difficult" bosses is the only accomplishment you have in your life.

I have been getting CE for a long time, too. It was easy then it's easy now.

[Osmeric]

If Blizzard was designing what they wanted instead of listening what the shitty community whines about, the game would be much better.

If game developers (or, really, anyone making anything for anyone) ignore their customers and design just for themselves, they will typically create disasters. Sometimes they will hit a home run, but by far the usual outcome is a game that appeals to a very small slice of customers, and therefore fails.

Kotick had a comment about this, a decade ago. He wanted to "take the fun out of game development". By that he meant it should be made with customer-focus, not developer-focus. I wonder what happened to that philosophy at ATVI.

[KaPe]

If Blizzard was designing what they wanted instead of listening what the shitty community whines about, the game would be much better. And they did change the most complained about parts of Legion - removed legendaries, toned down the AP grind and titanforging, etc.

Removing legendaries is hardly something worth praise. People didn't complain about the items themselves (except for those which were far too weak), it was their acquisition that sucked. It was finally fixed in the last patch, only to be removed and replaced with something that is just as RNG, requires grinding and is far less unique. Only some classes have somewhat interesting Azerite traits, for plenty of others it's completely generic stuff. Some of which used to be Artifact traits, so it's regaining something that we already had, but lost in the expansion.

AP grind is still here, still annoying, still depends on doing the same repetitive shit every time there's a new patch. They're claiming to be toning it down in Shadowlands, but until then, we'll be back to grinding the stuff in just two weeks.

Titanforging nerfs hardly changed anything. They are more rare, but still fairly common. You can still get your bis from random World Quest. You can still get top quality gear from pretty much any content. You can still invalidate rewards from hardest content based on pure luck. It's only really getting changed in 8.3, so we'll see how it goes.

[Krille]

Removing legendaries is hardly something worth praise. People didn't complain about the items themselves (except for those which were far too weak), it was their acquisition that sucked. It was finally fixed in the last patch, only to be removed and replaced with something that is just as RNG, requires grinding and is far less unique. Only some classes have somewhat interesting Azerite traits, for plenty of others it's completely generic stuff. Some of which used to be Artifact traits, so it's regaining something that we already had, but lost in the expansion.

AP grind is still here, still annoying, still depends on doing the same repetitive shit every time there's a new patch. They're claiming to be toning it down in Shadowlands, but until then, we'll be back to grinding the stuff in just two weeks.

Titanforging nerfs hardly changed anything. They are more rare, but still fairly common. You can still get your bis from random World Quest. You can still get top quality gear from pretty much any content. You can still invalidate rewards from hardest content based on pure luck. It's only really getting changed in 8.3, so we'll see how it goes.

Not a single spec/class can get their BiS item from World Quests, now or after the patch. Raiding remains the best source of loot, unless you're a top tier PVP player.

Is it a "grind" if you have to (at tops) do the emissary once per day (about 30 minutes), 1 m+ a week and if you're hardcore you do the Island cap (which i personally havent done in 2-3 months). Grind to me is spamming Islands just for the end-of-game AP.

The other stuff is doing ingame content, having goals ingame that you can finish each week shouldnt be = grind. Blizzard can't win it seems, if they don't have these weekly/daily goals people will complain, if they're there they say we are "forced to grind". It's just hilariously dumb, the entire discussion.

[Kralljin]

If game developers (or, really, anyone making anything for anyone) ignore their customers and design just for themselves, they will typically create disasters. Sometimes they will hit a home run, but by far the usual outcome is a game that appeals to a very small slice of customers, and therefore fails.

I think that was actually the secret why Blizzard games became that popular in the first place.
Blizzard has (or at least used to use to have) developers who are also gamers at heart, they knew what people wanted because they were a part of it.
Blizzard simply recruited people who were gamers but also pretty good developers, that's what made the company to a large extent.

However, if those people are asked to design games they don't like or wouldn't play themselves, you start to notice this sooner or later.
Video games are still works of art, they're something you can't just judge by objective standards like other products.

I once read a post from a former Wildstar dev, one of the more interesting things he wrote was:
The development process (and working enviroment) of that game was that bad, that by the time the game came out, the devs themselves didn't want to play their own game anymore.
If the devs themselves don't want to play their own game, you will release a failure of a game or just another installment to milk some landwhales who buy it regardless of what you serve them.

Of course, a target audience needs to kept in mind, but i think that has also become the great weakness of WoW:
It no longer has target audience, it tries to appeal to everybody, despite that certain aspects are diametrically opposed to each other.

WoW in my opinion, has lost its personality, it's a game that wants to be friends with everybody but fails to realize that you can't be cool with everyone at the same time.

WoW will probably go on for a long time, because it has likely a solid playerbase of ~2M people who just play the game regardless of what Blizzard serves them, even if that starts to dip, they just pump in more MTX to make up for it.
Blizzard even said to some Youtubers "Subs aren't the sole judge of the health of a game, large part of revenue comes from other source (a.k.a. MTX)".

[Krille]

I think that was actually the secret why Blizzard games became that popular in the first place.
Blizzard has (or at least used to use to have) developers who are also gamers at heart, they knew what people wanted because they were a part of it.
Blizzard simply recruited people who were gamers but also pretty good developers, that's what made the company to a large extent.

However, if those people are asked to design games they don't like or wouldn't play themselves, you start to notice this sooner or later.
Video games are still works of art, they're something you can't just judge by objective standards like other products.

I once read a post from a former Wildstar dev, one of the more interesting things he wrote was:
The development process (and working enviroment) of that game was that bad, that by the time the game came out, the devs themselves didn't want to play their own game anymore.
If the devs themselves don't want to play their own game, you will release a failure of a game or just another installment to milk some landwhales who buy it regardless of what you serve them.

Of course, a target audience needs to kept in mind, but i think that has also become the great weakness of WoW:
It no longer has target audience, it tries to appeal to everybody, despite that certain aspects are diametrically opposed to each other.

WoW in my opinion, has lost its personality, it's game that wants to be friends with everybody but fails to realize that you can't be cool with everyone at the same time.

WoW will probably go on for a long time, because it has likely a solid playerbase of ~2M people who just play the game regardless of what Blizzard serves them, even if that starts to dip, they just pump in more MTX to make up for it.
Blizzard even said to some Youtubers "Subs aren't the sole judge of the health of a game, large part of of revenue comes from other source (a.k.a. MTX)".

The reason you shouldn't design for players is because the players don't understand/know what they want themselves. It's the reason they're not devs themselves but simple gamers.

All of the shit you see in WoW is a a biproduct of "consumer opinions" over many years. Classic WoW is perhaps the most recent example, the amount of complaints that are now raining in because of legit Vanilla mechanics is alarming. The complaints are also in the same character that "casualized" WoW from Wotlk and onwards. Hilarious actually, to see history repeat itself.

[GringoD]

I have been getting CE for a long time, too. It was easy then it's easy now.

If this thread has taught me anything, then that some people will call anything easy.
As long as it's mathematically possible I guess. A scale from easy to M'uru.

[asil]

If this thread has taught me anything, then that some people will call anything easy.
As long as it's mathematically possible I guess. A scale from easy to M'uru.

No, there have been hard bosses in this game - as in they were brutal. But EP at this point, last tier? They were not hard, they're just not. They are not mechanically intensive at all.

The damage requirements don't even exist anymore.

[Kralljin]

The reason you shouldn't design for players is because the players don't understand/know what they want themselves. It's the reason they're not devs themselves but simple gamers.

That's what i mean by Blizzard hiring people that are also good devs.
But people who don't play their own game can't be a decent dev, because they don't have their own grasp of what is actually good.

But current WoW design must be like "we can't do that, else group X will be pissed!".

Classic WoW is perhaps the most recent example, the amount of complaints that are now raining in because of legit Vanilla mechanics is alarming.

This will most likely derail this discussion, but some of it could have been avoided if Blizzard had been a bit more flexible.
Case in point: Why not just release an earlier version of AV? 1.12 was the Rush meta already established due to previous changes, people even pointed out that this would happen after Blizzard announced their decision on AV.

People asked for Vanilla, not just 1.12 in particular.

[Krille]

If this thread has taught me anything, then that some people will call anything easy.
As long as it's mathematically possible I guess. A scale from easy to M'uru.

M'uru wasnt difficult it was impossible, mechanically it wasnt a difficult boss. Before you scream, a difficult boss is one that requires thin margins of error for executing complex mechanics (KJ is a great example of this). None of the bosses in EP has these "oh shit" moments that KJ/Uu'nat/Avatar had.

Players get mechanically better at the game every expansion, they need to up the difficulty somewhat to match that. A normal difficulty raider of today could probably clear Black Temple quite easily if it was relevant content now.

[GringoD]

M'uru wasnt difficult it was impossible, mechanically it wasnt a difficult boss. Before you scream, a difficult boss is one that requires thin margins of error for executing complex mechanics (KJ is a great example of this).

Interesting. It's like dps checks don't even concern you. They're not really part of the difficulty, huh?
How about Blizz does away with them entirely? Make a switch to more mechanically demanding fights.

[Relapses]

M'uru wasnt difficult it was impossible, mechanically it wasnt a difficult boss. Before you scream, a difficult boss is one that requires thin margins of error for executing complex mechanics (KJ is a great example of this). None of the bosses in EP has these "oh shit" moments that KJ/Uu'nat/Avatar had.

Players get mechanically better at the game every expansion, they need to up the difficulty somewhat to match that. A normal difficulty raider of today could probably clear Black Temple quite easily if it was relevant content now.

Ech, are you one of those people that liked KJ? Admittedly I quit in NH but I kept in touch with my guild who progressed on it and by all accounts it seemed like the encounter was designed with one singular goal in mind: Be really fucking annoying. I don't necessarily consider that a hallmark of a well-made encounter. Personally, I think a fight like Blackhand was much better designed. On the shorter end of the spectrum but felt genuinely good to progress on even though it was an encounter that we hit close to 500+ attempts with. Gorefiend was another pretty well-designed encounter, imo. I guess I prefer structured raid encounters to chaos for the sake of chaos.

[Frozenbro]

If this thread has taught me anything, then that some people will call anything easy.
As long as it's mathematically possible I guess. A scale from easy to M'uru.

Dude, get real, go through all the nerfs EP has gotten, then realize you are doing this thread AFTER all those nerfs were applied, and people still complain about the difficulty, its honestly a joke.

[Caprias]

If this thread has taught me anything, then that some people will call anything easy.
As long as it's mathematically possible I guess. A scale from easy to M'uru.

It is almost like a very subjective thing and also varying with your age, time you can/want to invest and engagement with the game.

[KaPe]

Dude, get real, go through all the nerfs EP has gotten, then realize you are doing this thread AFTER all those nerfs were applied, and people still complain about the difficulty, its honestly a joke.

Look at those nerfs and realize that it was mostly Ashvane and Azshara. They only touched two other bosses right before Winter break/New Year. There will be barely 2 weeks of raiding left after most people come back from break. That's *terrible* timing for nerfs. It's like they didn't realize that it's currently downtime from raiding or that there's only one week of post-patch before CE is removed.

And it's not like this really matters in context of CE. People who had issues with Orgozoa or Queen's Court won't make it through Za'qul, nevermind actually getting anywhere on Azshara. These nerfs could easily be staggered across couple weeks in late November/early December and have much better outcome. Za'qul would still murder guilds, but at least some of them would go from 4/8 to maybe 6.

It's almost like Blizzard still believes that Titanforging is some massive nerf to the instance. Hell, knowing them, they probably though the same thing about the Legendary trinket in Antorus. Which no one really saw drop.

[Nasuuna]

Ech, are you one of those people that liked KJ? Admittedly I quit in NH but I kept in touch with my guild who progressed on it and by all accounts it seemed like the encounter was designed with one singular goal in mind: Be really fucking annoying. I don't necessarily consider that a hallmark of a well-made encounter. Personally, I think a fight like Blackhand was much better designed. On the shorter end of the spectrum but felt genuinely good to progress on even though it was an encounter that we hit close to 500+ attempts with. Gorefiend was another pretty well-designed encounter, imo. I guess I prefer structured raid encounters to chaos for the sake of chaos.

bruh, KJ even on normal made me want to quit.

[Frozenbro]

And it's not like this really matters in context of CE. People who had issues with Orgozoa or Queen's Court won't make it through Za'qul, nevermind actually getting anywhere on Azshara. These nerfs could easily be staggered across couple weeks in late November/early December and have much better outcome. Za'qul would still murder guilds, but at least some of them would go from 4/8 to maybe 6.

Exactly, so considering this the nerfs werent "terrible" timing wise, they were just a bit off, since people need to understand that these nerfs werent to help mid tier guilds to kill azshara, they were never going to get there in the first place, this is just to throw them a bone so they end 5/8 or 6/8, they should just take that bone, see what they can improve or why they got worse, and move on, these threads are just a majestic show of entitlement.

[Krille]

Interesting. It's like dps checks don't even concern you. They're not really part of the difficulty, huh?
How about Blizz does away with them entirely? Make a switch to more mechanically demanding fights.

I wouldnt consider most dps checks difficult for the majority of guilds. They are difficult for the world first racers that reach the boss with shit gear. When us mortals reach the boss we have decent gear and should be able to kill it if played correctly.

Ashvane was only difficult for us because we reached it in the first raid, one shot all of the first 3 so we had to accumulate some gear before killing it. Fetid was a proper boss too, lots of annoying mechanics while having to burst dps, FUN!

- - - Updated - - -

Ech, are you one of those people that liked KJ? Admittedly I quit in NH but I kept in touch with my guild who progressed on it and by all accounts it seemed like the encounter was designed with one singular goal in mind: Be really fucking annoying. I don't necessarily consider that a hallmark of a well-made encounter. Personally, I think a fight like Blackhand was much better designed. On the shorter end of the spectrum but felt genuinely good to progress on even though it was an encounter that we hit close to 500+ attempts with. Gorefiend was another pretty well-designed encounter, imo. I guess I prefer structured raid encounters to chaos for the sake of chaos.

I enjoyed KJ. The intermission phase got kinda boring, but last phase is pure adrenaline. Looks beautiful when you execute it perfectly.

[GringoD]

Dude, get real, go through all the nerfs EP has gotten, then realize you are doing this thread AFTER all those nerfs were applied, and people still complain about the difficulty, its honestly a joke.

If anything is a joke, then it's your reading comprehension. This thread was prompted by over a thousand of guilds vanishing between last tier and this one. Those nerfs are too little, too late. There's a problem here, but elitists like you just scoff in indignation, at how easy it all is, how we should be content with the breadcrumbs that the supreme encounter designers at Blizz deign to give us a month before the next tier. It's a complete lack of perspective up on that ivory tower.

[Krille]

If anything is a joke, then it's your reading comprehension. This thread was prompted by over a thousand of guilds vanishing between last tier and this one. Those nerfs are too little, too late. There's a problem here, but elitists like you just scoff in indignation, at how easy it all is, how we should be content with the breadcrumbs that the supreme encounter designers at Blizz deign to give us a month before the next tier. It's a complete lack of perspective up on that ivory tower.

People quit because the game is in a dire state, imagine blaming it on the mythic difficulty being "too tight". If this was the point of the entire thread then its even more ridiculous than i first assumed.