Iranian General Sulemain and others reported killed in Baghdad airstrike

[Skroe]

This cements this attack, to me, as an assassination of a sovereign nation's political hierarchy. Something we haven't done since we killed Yamamoto in WW2, DURING A TIME OF WAR.

It’s past time we got back in the business. It’s time to push back, hard, against the tide of authoritarianism.

No more peace talks. No more deals. No more agreements. That comes later. First they come to fear the power of the US again. The unfree world has to be beat back down where it belongs as all authoritarian regimes, everywhere, are illegitimate representatives of their people and should have no legitimate claim to sovereignty except in what the free world alias them to have.

We should not respect their rights. We are unequal. The Democratic states aught to be the only legitimate form of government and it should be our National policy not systemically undermine the unfree.

[eschatological]

It’s past time we got back in the business. It’s time to push back, hard, against the tide of authoritarianism.

No more peace talks. No more deals. No more agreements. That comes later. First they come to fear the power of the US again. The unfree world has to be beat back down where it belongs as all authoritarian regimes, everywhere, are illegitimate representatives of their people and should have no legitimate claim to sovereignty except in what the free world alias them to have.

We should not respect their rights. We are unequal. The Democratic states aught to be the only legitimate form of government and it should be our National policy not systemically undermine the unfree.

And you say you're not a Heritage Foundation neoconservative?

That could have come directly from Dick Cheney or Paul Wolfowitz.

[Stormspark]

It’s past time we got back in the business. It’s time to push back, hard, against the tide of authoritarianism.

No more peace talks. No more deals. No more agreements. That comes later. First they come to fear the power of the US again. The unfree world has to be beat back down where it belongs as all authoritarian regimes, everywhere, are illegitimate representatives of their people and should have no legitimate claim to sovereignty except in what the free world alias them to have.

We should not respect their rights. We are unequal. The Democratic states aught to be the only legitimate form of government and it should be our National policy not systemically undermine the unfree.

I think we need to get the authoritarians out of the US first.

[D Luniz]

well, the village jackass is now only going to inform congress of any attacks on Iran via tweet

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/...574812160?s=20

[Adam Jensen]

Shit has hit again. Iran says they are going to ignore enrichment limits.

I would link and post but it is wsj again and I’d want to post the whole thing since there is a paywall.

Yep.

Obama had us on a path towards permanent peace with Iran. It wasn't perfect, there was still tension and animosity, but there was a path.

Then Trump came along and shit all over it.

[Skroe]

i guess a lot of people have a hard time understanding how poking the hornets nest is "deterrence" against the hornets.

now iran says they will be developing nuclear weapons freely.

And then we will bomb them. And when they try to reconstitute it, we will bomb them again. And again. There is no reason we have to stop. There is no reason for regime change. We just “mow the grass” as the Israelis put it.

Fact of the matter is, you all have grown so used to adversary states breaking agreements, pushing the limits, and undermining the liberal world order that you have forgotten that the other side (us) is entitled to escalation and entitled to try and restore deterrence that we lost.

Deterrence was lost when we did not punish Russia for invading Georgia in 2008.
Deterrence was lost when we allowed China to island build uncontested.

Deterrence was lost when North Korea detonated its first nuclear device - a science project and not a weapon at that stage - and did not pay a price.
Deterrence was lost when China stole cart troves of US military secrets without a response from us.

Detterence was lost when Assad stepped over Obama’s red line and Putin bailed him out.

Deterrence was lost when Russian and Chinese intelligence agencies supplied anti-air weaponry to Quadafii in 2011 and didn’t play a price for it.

Deterrence was lost when Russia invaded Ukraine and Ukraine wasn’t armed with powerful weapons.

Deterrence was lost when Russia hacked the 2016 election and not a single Russia hacker paid for it with their life.

You all are so dead wrong and history ignorant it is mind boggling. You have all grown up in the era of the perpetual Western Retreat where we make excuses for inaction - either the aforementioned hornets nest or “we need their help” (the excuse Obama made to not foil Russia in Ukraine, because he wanted Russian help on Iran).

Well, that needed to end years ago. When US troops annihilated 300 Wagner Mercenaries it sent a message of deterrence that many of you celebrated. But it was more esoteric. This message is quite clear.

How does it send a message? It’s quite clear: provoke the United States and we’ll execute from the air even the highest and most “protected” of you.

We should do it again. And soon. Be the era of the perpetual western cheek-turning must be at an end. The unfree world should piss it’s pants at provoking us. It will make the world far far safer in the long term, as the insecurity of the modern world and return of the Cold War is largely Driven by the failure to deter.

- - - Updated - - -

I think we need to get the authoritarians out of the US first.

I think we can walk and chew bubble gum.

After all, Nixon was President during the middle of the Cold War.

There will always be some excuse to wait. Now is the time.

- - - Updated - - -

And you say you're not a Heritage Foundation neoconservative?

That could have come directly from Dick Cheney or Paul Wolfowitz.

Believing in the primacy of freedom is not a neoconservative thought. The “Empire is Liberty” is a very old American belief. The first generation of Americans struggled with the desire to export their revolution.

It’s sickening and a commentary on our times that such rhetoric is associated with Neocons. Everything is said is not dissimilar to what FDR and JFK said.

American progressives have simply lost the vocabulary for why human liberty is vital in the world, in pursuit of parochial concerns like healthcare.

- - - Updated - - -

Yep.

Obama had us on a path towards permanent peace with Iran. It wasn't perfect, there was still tension and animosity, but there was a path.

Then Trump came along and shit all over it.

Nonsense. The Iran deal kicked the can to the late 2020s and did not address Iran’s missile program or create the framework of a regional settlement (or open a path to it).

A permanent peace? Good joke. We never should have left it. But it certainly wasn’t anything close to that. All it did was try and buy time.

[Crispin]

It’s past time we got back in the business. It’s time to push back, hard, against the tide of authoritarianism.

No more peace talks. No more deals. No more agreements. That comes later. First they come to fear the power of the US again. The unfree world has to be beat back down where it belongs as all authoritarian regimes, everywhere, are illegitimate representatives of their people and should have no legitimate claim to sovereignty except in what the free world alias them to have.

We should not respect their rights. We are unequal. The Democratic states aught to be the only legitimate form of government and it should be our National policy not systemically undermine the unfree.

Honestly sounds like something taken out of Team America...

It’s not for the US to decide what kind of goverment sovereign countries are under. I’m all for promoting democracy, bombing it in is just retarded.

And its entirely possible to be against Russia and still not for “deterrence” through bombing Iranian generals. I often agree with your “sometimes keeping the west safe is dirty business”, but this is just retarded and serves bo good purpose, Iran is not going to change strategy or back down, they’re getting the world to symphatise with them.

[Freighter]

Shit has hit again. Iran says they are going to ignore enrichment limits.

I would link and post but it is wsj again and I’d want to post the whole thing since there is a paywall.

You can circumvent it easily.

Iran said it was suspending all its commitments to restrict the production of enriched uranium, but stopped short of abandoning a 2015 deal that sought to prevent Tehran from making a nuclear bomb.

The decision marked the latest step by Iran to scale back compliance with the 2015 nuclear deal and comes as tensions have soared between Washington and Tehran following the U.S. killing of a top Iranian military leader.

The announcement Sunday, carried on Iranian television, leaves Tehran’s options wide open in terms of how quickly it continues to amass enriched uranium, which can be used to fuel a nuclear weapon.

It could rapidly step up its uranium enrichment by installing centrifuges that were removed under the deal and ramp up the purity of the fuel it produces closer to weapons-grade material.

That could leave Iran only a few months away from being able to accumulate enough nuclear fuel for one atomic bomb by late spring, nuclear experts have said.

On Twitter, Iranian Foreign Minister Javad Zarif said this latest and final step away from the deal’s limits would mean Iran could install as many centrifuges—machines for producing enriched uranium—as it wanted.

All steps “are reversible upon EFFECTIVE implementation” of the other parties’ commitments, he wrote.

Under the deal, Iran removed two-thirds of the roughly 19,000 centrifuges it had installed by mid-2015 and placed them under the watch of the U.N. atomic agency. Iran, however, has already introduced more centrifuges than allowed under the deal. Mr. Zarif wasn’t specific about how many machines would be reinstalled.

A statement by Iranian officials read on Iranian television also touched on principles that would help preserve the deal. It said Iran would continue cooperating with the U.N. atomic agency as before. The International Atomic Energy Agency has sweeping oversight of Iran’s nuclear facilities and many nonnuclear sites under the 2015 deal.

The statement also said that Iran’s uranium enrichment production would move in line with “technical needs.”

Iran began scaling back its commitments to the deal a year after the U.S. pulled out of the agreement in 2018, leaving European participants, Russia and China to try to salvage the agreement.

President Trump argued the deal offered Tehran a path to developing weapons. The U.S. has since reimposed sanctions that have crippled the Iranian economy, prompting protests inside Iran.

Iran has said its nuclear program is purely civilian and it doesn’t seek the bomb.

Iran had already exceeded limits in the nuclear deal on its stockpile of enriched uranium and was producing uranium at levels slightly higher than those permitted in July. In September, it said it would conduct research on more advanced machines for enriching uranium than permitted under the agreement—a step that also saw Iran install more centrifuges than permitted by the deal.

In November, it started enriching uranium at its underground site of Fordow, a step banned under the deal.

Britain, France and Germany had warned that if Iran moved further away from the nuclear deal’s limits, they would resort to a dispute mechanism that could see international sanctions reimposed on Iran within sixty days.

[s_bushido]

And you say you're not a Heritage Foundation neoconservative?

That could have come directly from Dick Cheney or Paul Wolfowitz.

People on the forums like to give him a pat on the back because he speaks out against Trump. But if it was any other Republican that had been elected in 2016, they'd probably still be disagreeing with pretty much every stance he takes on a political topic.

[starlord]

And then we will bomb them. And when they try to reconstitute it, we will bomb them again. And again. There is no reason we have to stop. There is no reason for regime change. We just “mow the grass” as the Israelis put it.

Fact of the matter is, you all have grown so used to adversary states breaking agreements, pushing the limits, and undermining the liberal world order that you have forgotten that the other side (us) is entitled to escalation and entitled to try and restore deterrence that we lost.

Deterrence was lost when we did not punish Russia for invading Georgia in 2008.
Deterrence was lost when we allowed China to island build uncontested.

Deterrence was lost when North Korea detonated its first nuclear device - a science project and not a weapon at that stage - and did not pay a price.
Deterrence was lost when China stole cart troves of US military secrets without a response from us.

Detterence was lost when Assad stepped over Obama’s red line and Putin bailed him out.

Deterrence was lost when Russian and Chinese intelligence agencies supplied anti-air weaponry to Quadafii in 2011 and didn’t play a price for it.

Deterrence was lost when Russia invaded Ukraine and Ukraine wasn’t armed with powerful weapons.

Deterrence was lost when Russia hacked the 2016 election and not a single Russia hacker paid for it with their life.

You all are so dead wrong and history ignorant it is mind boggling. You have all grown up in the era of the perpetual Western Retreat where we make excuses for inaction - either the aforementioned hornets nest or “we need their help” (the excuse Obama made to not foil Russia in Ukraine, because he wanted Russian help on Iran).

Well, that needed to end years ago. When US troops annihilated 300 Wagner Mercenaries it sent a message of deterrence that many of you celebrated. But it was more esoteric. This message is quite clear.

How does it send a message? It’s quite clear: provoke the United States and we’ll execute from the air even the highest and most “protected” of you.

We should do it again. And soon. Be the era of the perpetual western cheek-turning must be at an end. The unfree world should piss it’s pants at provoking us. It will make the world far far safer in the long term, as the insecurity of the modern world and return of the Cold War is largely Driven by the failure to deter.

- - - Updated - - -



I think we can walk and chew bubble gum.

After all, Nixon was President during the middle of the Cold War.

There will always be some excuse to wait. Now is the time.

- - - Updated - - -



Believing in the primacy of freedom is not a neoconservative thought. The “Empire is Liberty” is a very old American belief. The first generation of Americans struggled with the desire to export their revolution.

It’s sickening and a commentary on our times that such rhetoric is associated with Neocons. Everything is said is not dissimilar to what FDR and JFK said.

American progressives have simply lost the vocabulary for why human liberty is vital in the world, in pursuit of parochial concerns like healthcare.

how free are we when the citizens are suffering for the sake of propping up an overbloated war machine, lubed with our blood? our quality of life has been steadily declining for decades while the military budget keeps growing.
the endless wars and military intervention haven't made anyone freer or more afraid of the US. point to the successes we've had in the ME since starting all this nonsense. invading afghanistan was supposed to make us freer. that didnt work, so invading iraq was supposed to make us freer. then ISIS came along in response to our actions. whoops, guess nobody can be free yet guys.
meanwhile we live constantly under the threat of terrorism from without and within.
authortarians seized on the opportunity created by this constant state of fear to ride the wave to power. and why not? all they had to say was "we will protect you from the brown people we have spent decades indoctrinating you to hate!".

what, exactly has "deterrence" done for us?

[I Push Buttons]

i guess a lot of people have a hard time understanding how poking the hornets nest is "deterrence" against the hornets.

now iran says they will be developing nuclear weapons freely.

A lot of people had the same line of thinking leading up to WW2.

Britain didn't want to poke the hornets nest of Nazi Germany, so they appeased them.
The USSR didn't want to poke the hornets nest of Nazi Germany, so they collaborated with them.
The US didn't want to poke the hornets nest of Nazi Germany (or Imperial Japan), so it just isolated itself and largely ignored them.

We all know how that turned out. Nazi Germany could have been stopped in its tracks if any of those three powers put their foot down early enough, but none of them did. Obsequiousness in the face of authoritarianism DOES NOT WORK. The problem won't just go away on its own, it will just get worse.

[Skroe]

Honestly sounds like something taken out of Team America...

It’s not for the US to decide what kind of goverment sovereign countries are under. I’m all for promoting democracy, bombing it in is just retarded.

And its entirely possible to be against Russia and still not for “deterrence” through bombing Iranian generals. I often agree with your “sometimes keeping the west safe is dirty business”, but this is just retarded and serves bo good purpose, Iran is not going to change strategy or back down, they’re getting the world to symphatise with them.

It’s not for America to decide other country’s form of government at all.

It is certainly our right to keep them locked up within their territory and not internationally significant.

If change comes to them it must come from within. But we should not pretend for a second that they are internationally as legitimate as any democratic country.

[Paranoid Android]

@NYTimes: “Officials presented the president with options. The Pentagon tacked on the choice of targeting Suleimani mainly to make other options seem reasonable. They didn’t think he would take it. When Mr. Trump chose the option, military officials, flabbergasted, were alarmed.”

https://twitter.com/KBAndersen/statu...152340481?s=19

Someone else posted this I believe, but WOW!

[Skroe]

Your war mongering is disgusting.

So is your proclivity to let authorities an regimes do whatever they want while the United Stares can even drone strike one of the worst of the worst.

Exactly where is “the line” with you people? Is there one? Besides a never-actually-happened Jack Bauer ticking clock scenario?

[starlord]

A lot of people had the same line of thinking leading up to WW2.

Britain didn't want to poke the hornets nest of Nazi Germany, so they appeased them.
The USSR didn't want to poke the hornets nest of Nazi Germany, so they collaborated with them.
The US didn't want to poke the hornets nest of Nazi Germany (or Imperial Japan), so it just isolated itself and largely ignored them.

We all know how that turned out. Nazi Germany could have been stopped in its tracks if any of those three powers put their foot down early enough, but none of them did. Obsequiousness in the face of authoritarianism DOES NOT WORK. The problem won't just go away on its own, it will just get worse.

there is so much wrong here i dont even know where to begin.

the situations are not remotely comparable. germany was actively invading and taking over other countries. iran has not done that. we are also the ones who helped put their current regime in place.

certainly, a response was warranted. but everyone except war hawks in the US think we were out of line. this makes the US lose a lot of credibility when we bleat about "freedom."

[Kiri]

A lot of people had the same line of thinking leading up to WW2.

Britain didn't want to poke the hornets nest of Nazi Germany, so they appeased them.
The USSR didn't want to poke the hornets nest of Nazi Germany, so they collaborated with them.
The US didn't want to poke the hornets nest of Nazi Germany (or Imperial Japan), so it just isolated itself and largely ignored them.

We all know how that turned out. Nazi Germany could have been stopped in its tracks if any of those three powers put their foot down early enough, but none of them did. Obsequiousness in the face of authoritarianism DOES NOT WORK. The problem won't just go away on its own, it will just get worse.

The same argument can be made with Russia during the cold war. Heck, lots of people back then used the WWII example to push for openly attacking Russia. And yet, it ended without needing to provoke a major war. But that doesn't mean much for current events, just like the WWII one. Maybe it will overall lead to a better outcome, maybe not. Don't try to act as if you can somehow say anything with certainty in that regard.

[Themius]

And then we will bomb them. And when they try to reconstitute it, we will bomb them again. And again. There is no reason we have to stop. There is no reason for regime change. We just “mow the grass” as the Israelis put it.

Fact of the matter is, you all have grown so used to adversary states breaking agreements, pushing the limits, and undermining the liberal world order that you have forgotten that the other side (us) is entitled to escalation and entitled to try and restore deterrence that we lost.

Deterrence was lost when we did not punish Russia for invading Georgia in 2008.
Deterrence was lost when we allowed China to island build uncontested.

Deterrence was lost when North Korea detonated its first nuclear device - a science project and not a weapon at that stage - and did not pay a price.
Deterrence was lost when China stole cart troves of US military secrets without a response from us.

Detterence was lost when Assad stepped over Obama’s red line and Putin bailed him out.

Deterrence was lost when Russian and Chinese intelligence agencies supplied anti-air weaponry to Quadafii in 2011 and didn’t play a price for it.

Deterrence was lost when Russia invaded Ukraine and Ukraine wasn’t armed with powerful weapons.

Deterrence was lost when Russia hacked the 2016 election and not a single Russia hacker paid for it with their life.

You all are so dead wrong and history ignorant it is mind boggling. You have all grown up in the era of the perpetual Western Retreat where we make excuses for inaction - either the aforementioned hornets nest or “we need their help” (the excuse Obama made to not foil Russia in Ukraine, because he wanted Russian help on Iran).

Well, that needed to end years ago. When US troops annihilated 300 Wagner Mercenaries it sent a message of deterrence that many of you celebrated. But it was more esoteric. This message is quite clear.

How does it send a message? It’s quite clear: provoke the United States and we’ll execute from the air even the highest and most “protected” of you.

We should do it again. And soon. Be the era of the perpetual western cheek-turning must be at an end. The unfree world should piss it’s pants at provoking us. It will make the world far far safer in the long term, as the insecurity of the modern world and return of the Cold War is largely Driven by the failure to deter.

- - - Updated - - -



I think we can walk and chew bubble gum.

After all, Nixon was President during the middle of the Cold War.

There will always be some excuse to wait. Now is the time.

- - - Updated - - -



Believing in the primacy of freedom is not a neoconservative thought. The “Empire is Liberty” is a very old American belief. The first generation of Americans struggled with the desire to export their revolution.

It’s sickening and a commentary on our times that such rhetoric is associated with Neocons. Everything is said is not dissimilar to what FDR and JFK said.

American progressives have simply lost the vocabulary for why human liberty is vital in the world, in pursuit of parochial concerns like healthcare.

- - - Updated - - -


Nonsense. The Iran deal kicked the can to the late 2020s and did not address Iran’s missile program or create the framework of a regional settlement (or open a path to it).

A permanent peace? Good joke. We never should have left it. But it certainly wasn’t anything close to that. All it did was try and buy time.

We were on the path to a more peaceful resolution that was blown up by the USA. So it appears that we indeed had a way to fix this before Americans fucked it up no?The type of shit you're pedaling, this "just kill everyone show everyone this is the world of the USA" is exactly how empires fall...

How long will the EU stay with an America who is fine with bombing everyone with little regard? How long before America pushes unlikely allies to join together?

- - - Updated - - -

So is your proclivity to let authorities an regimes do whatever they want while the United Stares can even drone strike one of the worst of the worst.

Exactly where is “the line” with you people? Is there one? Besides a never-actually-happened Jack Bauer ticking clock scenario?

Do you think bombing Iran will get them back on a progressive track?

[Paranoid Android]

These Media Posts will serve as notification to the United States Congress that should Iran strike any U.S. person or target, the United States will quickly & fully strike back, & perhaps in a disproportionate manner. Such legal notice is not required, but is given nevertheless!

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/...574812160?s=19

So he is announcing he doesn't need Congress approval on Twitter.

He is mad, mental and may likely more than ever start a war on Twitter. Amazing.

[Adam Jensen]

Nonsense. The Iran deal kicked the can to the late 2020s and did not address Iran’s missile program or create the framework of a regional settlement (or open a path to it).

A permanent peace? Good joke. We never should have left it. But it certainly wasn’t anything close to that. All it did was try and buy time.

I never said we had a permanent peace. I said we were on a path towards it. And that time it bought was more time we could use to try to foster more diplomacy and more good will.

[matt4pack]

So is your proclivity to let authorities an regimes do whatever they want while the United Stares can even drone strike one of the worst of the worst.

Exactly where is “the line” with you people? Is there one? Besides a never-actually-happened Jack Bauer ticking clock scenario?

This is what the pentagon thought. So you're out of touch with even military officials but I'm sure you were an Iraq war supporter as well. People like you aren't on the front lines so you can have all kinds of stupid fantasies because you aren't going to be the one coming back in a body bag like the thousands who died in your pointless war.

“Officials presented the president with options. The Pentagon tacked on the choice of targeting Suleimani mainly to make other options seem reasonable. They didn’t think he would take it. When Mr. Trump chose the option, military officials, flabbergasted, were alarmed.”