Truth Behind the Toxic Environment in WoW.

[M1r4g3]

tbh it can be pretty toxic in classic to and that version of the game got nothing of those things listed. In todays day and age of gaming its alot about min/maxing everything. People strive to whatever is best, whatever is meta, even though most of them will never be good enough to justify it. People funnel to it while most gets left behind for X reasons. This in turn makes alot of players toxic.

Im not sure classic is really a great example tho, it was released recently-ish and the people playing it are the same people that played retail, which obviously came with the retail attitude, its not really a ''natural'' social progression or something like that. Tho personally i had a really nice time when i was playing classic, was actually surprised how nice/patient people were, and then came the SM cleave runs...

But i do agree that gaming these days is more like that, hopefully we see a shift in gaming away from that.

[Alkizon]

I dont think english is his first nor second language, his whole post got me confused.

For a change... what exactly you didn't understand?

Did you understand what message says about anonymity?
Did you understand description of system in which anonymity happens?
Did you understand what these system's conditions impose on organization of open world?
Did you understand that layers are part of open world organization, and therefore have direct relationship to formation of conditions, and therefore to formation of social interactions, which means that decision directly affected consequences?

[crusadernero]

Im not sure classic is really a great example tho, it was released recently-ish and the people playing it are the same people that played retail, which obviously came with the retail attitude, its not really a ''natural'' social progression or something like that. Tho personally i had a really nice time when i was playing classic, was actually surprised how nice/patient people were, and then came the SM cleave runs...

But i do agree that gaming these days is more like that, hopefully we see a shift in gaming away from that.

yeah then mix those retail players with the classic crowd that played on private servers and would never touch retail even if someone pointed a gun to theyre heads. as I said in another thread the approach to classic in 2019/2020 compared to the approach to vanilla in 04/05 is very different.

The SM cleave runs happend more or less at the launch of classic. Someone found out it was more effective and that was that. Now on classic people rather buy SM boosts than actually get a normal grp for it.

It was interesting watching how streamers and popular wow gamers in general talked about classic before launch and how the approached it when it launched. Before launch, they talked about the exploring, the grouping, "you decide what you want to do in the world" approach and in general lifted up the idea that classic was to be treated in a different way. You had to work for everything, there was no shortcuts. It was about exploring the world, taking your time, being patient. What kind of gear that was best wasnt clear etc.

Then classic launched and most streamers and popular wow players ended up with SM cleave runs over and over again, for hours on end. Suddenly it was about reaching lvl 60 quickly as possible so they could start raiding and clear MC, a raid that didnt even require a full raid of lvl 60s to clear. Alot of people followed suit and treated classic the same way.

[Alkizon]

streamers

Streamers were not target audience of vanilla, but, unfortunately, they apparently became main target audience for Classic's launch. Well, OK, they "shot back" and went away, to hell with them, but now we're left to live with consequences of failed launch: incorrectly set initial system's conditions.

[crusadernero]

Streamers were not target audience of vanilla, but, unfortunately, they apparently became main target audience for Classic's launch. Well, OK, they "shot back" and went away, to hell with them, but now we're left to live with consequences of failed launch: incorrectly set initial system's conditions.

I agree most of them were not target audience, but gaming today works very differently now. When a new game launches today its dissected, tested and weigthed by gaming personans on twitch or youtube and deemed good enough or bad. new games gets cleared quickly in whatever way the gaming community overall deems "the best" and it creates a standard. If the game overall survives the initial push it will quickly have a set standard on how the game should be played to be most effective.

Just look at this forum. People keep arguing and arguing wheter classic or retail has most players, like it for some godly reason matters to you as a player. Videos after videos are created on youtube about how good/bad classic or retail is and why. People watch it and I think many of them decide theyre opinion on games from that. Instead of just playing whatever game you enjoy, cause YOU enjoy it.

Imagine if we had it like it is now back in 04. There would be alot of people out there who wouldnt think fondly back to those early days of vanilla.

[Alkizon]

Based on your posts, I dont think you know what anonymity means and what effect it has in pug content.

My message additionally takes into account couple of rough hints about current system, as well as a few clarifications for a special case (for conditions of particular game). On the whole, I agreed with "original quote" (whom I originally quoted) and with you, didn’t I? (even apologized for slowly forming message, since you were quick to draw conclusions based on only part of it)

Imagine if we had it like it is now back in 04. There would be alot of people out there who wouldnt think fondly back to those early days of vanilla.

There is simple, but tricky enough phrase: participants form conditions, yes, but only after conditions form participants.

[Kaver]

I agree partly. It's MOSTLY our own fault. Though removing yourself from it is just to flee, and do not solve anything but your own needs.

I agree with the "don't flee from your problems" attitude in general. The problem is that some people are just toxic on the internet and nothing you do is going to change that. So the only way you can avoid them is by avoiding them.

It's completely fair that you enjoy pug'ing. My main point was just that people shouldn't blame content like M+ for toxic behavior. The issue is people and not the content. If you want to avoid toxic behavior then you need to avoid the toxic people.

[Alkizon]

Kaver
content like M+ for toxic behavior

Current M+ aren't content, it's system parasitic on content and worst human qualities. Not more, not less. We already talked about something similar here and for example here.

Kaver
I think M+ is really fun when you do it with people you care about.

You still cannot blame M+ for people behaving toxic towards other people.

It doesn't matter whether it's fun or not, it's important general influence of subsystem on system as a whole. I have already explained more than once situation "about smoking" here (private win doesn't compensate for a general loss, you win battle, but not war).

What do we talk now is about social part separately, but this (M+) system affects upper-systems (if you read link under M+, then it says that if you cut out “interfering” part from there and element becomes “painless” enough for the system, then we’ll see how really people do it “just for fun”) and already these affects "social taxis" (we are talking here also about indirect dependence, not just direct one). Subsystem is element of general progress one, and that, in own turn, as consequence of general problems of its organization, also affects social "situation". Not to same extent that organization’s "server+open world" systems, but also do, if break relationship between them, it'll remain to "repair" lattest mentioned part.

Simple example (of wasn't foreseen interdependence): some confusion in connection with "pet battles" and general exp+reputation (this happened once not so long ago, Mehagon, I suppose); separate conditionally “painless” part of content influenced general conditions for obtaining common useful part, not that it was something fatal, but as an example.

[Kaver]

Current M+ aren't content, it's system parasitic on content and worst human qualities. Not more, not less. We already talked about something similar here and for example here.

I think M+ is really fun when you do it with people you care about.

You still cannot blame M+ for people behaving toxic towards other people.

[Zephire]

I agree with the "don't flee from your problems" attitude in general. The problem is that some people are just toxic on the internet and nothing you do is going to change that. So the only way you can avoid them is by avoiding them.

It's completely fair that you enjoy pug'ing. My main point was just that people shouldn't blame content like M+ for toxic behavior. The issue is people and not the content. If you want to avoid toxic behavior then you need to avoid the toxic people.

One could try ignoring the toxic one and only answer to non-toxcicity. Not giving them any attention.

Also, I think Blizzard should provide the right tools to help us. Kicking is one of those tools but as I said, in m+ you lose out if you remove someone. So we can't completely say that it's only our fault, I think. There are still some system things limiting us or working against us.

[NineSpine]

I think M+ is really fun when you do it with people you care about.

You still cannot blame M+ for people behaving toxic towards other people.

I can absolutely blame the design of M+ for encouraging toxicity. You are practically begging for toxicity when you make a system where:

1. The fastest way to skip ahead is to get carried.
2. There are time limits that effectively cause you to lose your progress if you don't meet them.
3. The rewards are so competitive that the system feels mandatory.

It's one of the most poorly designed systems Blizzard has ever devised, and it is very clear already that the design is just another attempt to turn WoW into an esport.

[Laughingjack]

I can absolutely blame the design of M+ for encouraging toxicity. You are practically begging for toxicity when you make a system where:

1. The fastest way to skip ahead is to get carried.
2. There are time limits that effectively cause you to lose your progress if you don't meet them.
3. The rewards are so competitive that the system feels mandatory.

It's one of the most poorly designed systems Blizzard has ever devised, and it is very clear already that the design is just another attempt to turn WoW into an esport.

I actually agree with you for the most part. I feel that there should be challenging dungeons but it would be better to create a tightly tuned dungeon rather then simply adding wacky rng effects that reset every week.

[Advent]

I actually agree with you for the most part. I feel that there should be challenging dungeons but it would be better to create a tightly tuned dungeon rather then simply adding wacky rng effects that reset every week.

What is rng about affixes, exactly? O_o

[Kaver]

I can absolutely blame the design of M+ for encouraging toxicity. You are practically begging for toxicity when you make a system where:

1. The fastest way to skip ahead is to get carried.
2. There are time limits that effectively cause you to lose your progress if you don't meet them.
3. The rewards are so competitive that the system feels mandatory.

It's one of the most poorly designed systems Blizzard has ever devised, and it is very clear already that the design is just another attempt to turn WoW into an esport.

What about people start taking responsibility for their own behavior and actions. Blizzard are not to blame for peoples toxicity and they should not be restricted in their game design just because some people are extremely uncivilized. M+ doesn't force anyone to behave badly towards other people. And nobody forces you to play with strangers who don't care about you. Your actions are your responsibility.. Not Blizzard's.

[Flay-]

And nobody forces you to play with strangers who don't care about you. Your actions are your responsibility.. Not Blizzard's.

I agree with everything in your post except this. How do you go about not playing with strangers when most mythic groups I've seen are through LFG? There's no way around that unless you're in a guild that is actively pushing high keys.

[Kaver]

I agree with everything in your post except this. How do you go about not playing with strangers when most mythic groups I've seen are through LFG? There's no way around that unless you're in a guild that is actively pushing high keys.

But do you choose to play with strangers EVERYTIME you do dungeons? When you find a good group do you then choose to add them to your friend list so you can play with them again or do you just forget them and find a completely new group of strangers everytime you need to do content? These questions are based on YOUR behavior and is not Blizzard's responsibility.

Also, finding a completely normal guild that you can do content with is not difficult at all. People make it sound like you need to comply with Method requirements to join a normal guild. But you don't. You just write in guild chat "hey someone up for M+?" and then you will most likely be able to make a group of guildies.

My point is, it's completely normal to play with strangers in WoW to begin with. But you dont have to do it everytime you do content. When you meet someone who is nice and who you enjoy running a dungeon with you should say "Hi, this was nice. Is it okay I add you to my friendlist so we can play together again sometime?" or ask them if you can join their guild if you don't already have one.

When people choose to make no social effort at all and play with strangers everytime they do content, then it's their own choice. Blizzard are not to blame. They should not restrict their game design just because some people are anti-social and have no manners.

[Laughingjack]

What is rng about affixes, exactly? O_o

I just think a dungeon would be more enjoyable without its difficulty changing week to week and being extremely varied form a outside system. It is a taste thing and easy to argue though.

[Absintheminded]

Sorry but when servers weren't combined and there was no LFD/LFR, people were incredibly less toxic. Maybe it was just as much society as game mechanics. But I think a bit part of it was the communities that were built and people really were unaccepting of jackasses. You could make a name for yourself, good or bad. Just two cents.

[deenman]

No, pugging isn't the problem. The problem is the people who are trying to do content beyond their skill level and ruining it for others who do have the skill level.

this is extremly backwards in my experience,i have with almost 100% accuracy found that the people who are or think they are on a ''high skill level'' act more toxic in pugs,this is the reason why i completly stoped using raider io when looking for a m+ pug to fill a group,the high score guys are asshats like clockwork if ANYTHING goes wrong,and join groups clearly listed as ''weekly'',now i just chose based on ilvl and very rarerly had problems

[Advent]

I just think a dungeon would be more enjoyable without its difficulty changing week to week and being extremely varied form a outside system. It is a taste thing and easy to argue though.

Well sure, maybe. But isn't that what base Mythic dungeons already are?