Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Ielenia]

Blood elves are our high elves... that is a fact and it's fundamental to this topic.

That is immaterial to the discussion at hand. And you should drop it because I could just easily say "the night elves are the highborne" but now we have nightborne. Who are highborne as well, and call themselves as such.

And the fact that it "muddles the conversation" (in your terms) is indicative that playable alliance high elves would "muddle" the faction lines, or in other words, blur faction lines.

Blizzard already did so with pandaren and the allied races.

Why do you think both void elves and nightborne were given aestehtical and thematical changes to differentiate them from their parent race?

Both got minimal differences that are rendered null and void with the way armor covers the player's model. The nightborne, even LESS differences. You literally cannot differentiate one from the other out in the game world before the game tells you which one they are by the color of their outline and name. But if that bothers you so much: the high elves already have thematic differences, so all we have to do is give them minimal aesthetic differences, to the level of nightborne, to satisfy you.

It does matter that pandaren were introduced as neutral. Your comparing apples to oranges, the pandaren situation is not the high elven situation... it happened under completely different circumstances.

And the thalassian elves would not become neutral if high elves became playable, so I don't know why this insistence on "neutral race" nonsense.

I didn't take anything out of context.

Veressa was not leaving the Alliance to join the Horde. She was leaving to join her sister because she was hurting and wanted at least a semblance of a stable family. She was not going to join the Horde.

[Kyriani]

The official forums constantly has a high elfer making a new thread every other day, even when the "contained thread" is up and running.

And as to your question about why people report the high elf threads as spam, well I don't know as I don't participate in the official forums.. but I'd wager that much of the community on the official forums are tired of seeing constant threads about the same request and as such likely report any new high elf thread as spam. When multiple threads about the same request are made, then it is spam.. plain and simply spam. The new threads that pop up after one is banned don't bring anything new to the table, they literally just re-post saying "support for high elves". Again, this is spam.

This forum admittedly does a good job at maintaining the discussion to one thread, though I credit that to the MMO-champ moderators being more active at closing any "spam" threads than the official forum moderators are.

And in regards to the anti threads on the official forums, from what I've seen they seem to get closed down as frequently as the pro high elf threads do. Likely due to their also being spam. Again, I don't get involved in the official forums so it's beyond my care what happens there. But from what I've seen, any thread on the official forums about high elves as of late is plain and simply spam, and as such I personally don't see the issue with that community flagging those threads as spam.

To be fair... most of the High Elf related topics I've seen popping up on the forums for some time now seem to be started by people who don't actually care about High Elves one way or the other, but get off on trolling in general. They just make a post to stir the pot because they know a bunch of pro and anti helfrs will show up, take the bait, and entertain them with their inevitable back and forth. Half the time they never even make a second post in the thread they started.

[FlubberPuddy]

To be fair... most of the High Elf related topics I've seen popping up on the forums for some time now seem to be started by people who don't actually care about High Elves one way or the other, but get off on trolling in general. They just make a post to stir the pot because they know a bunch of pro and anti helfrs will show up, take the bait, and entertain them with their inevitable back and forth. Half the time they never even make a second post in the thread they started.

Yeah, unfortunate as it seems neither side can keep themselves from fighting it out. That's why I hope blue eyes on blood elves happen.

It should quell the fears of those who thought they'd miss out on customization options, and then it also props up the High Elf request even more because it'll reinforce that people aren't simply looking to play 'blue eye blood elves'.

- - - Updated - - -

https://www.wowhead.com/news=312311/...ss-hub-updates

Post has a lot of comments about the Org Blood Elf Paladin trainer being swathed in Silver Hand get-up. People making comments from 'that's the most alliance blood elf ever' to 'wtf Blood Elves have their own Blood Knight order, Blizz needs to fix this' and 'Blizzard are just turning Horde to Red Alliance, wtf.'

And it's something of a minor detail in a place where most people won't ever need to go. Yet it matters judging by the comments. Even those about Mag'har now just are basically homeless etc etc.

People care about what some might consider 'minor details'. Point is the nuances matter, and that's the whole thing about this High Elf request. It's nuanced, but the detractors try to ensure that nuance is lost painting the conversation with a broad brush.

[Ardenaso]

"After years of aiding the alliance but with little to no reward, the alliance high elf exiles realize that their future lies in re-uniting with their kin in Silvermoon and have decided to join their kin under the banner of the Horde".

There, problem solved.

I don't think being complicit with the massacre of the Sunreavers nor helping reclaim Stromgarde which puts Quel'thalas in an even more risky situation would make the Blood Elves be good again with the High Elves.

- - - Updated - - -

Unless of course you're talking about those in Quel'danil.

[Strippling]

I don't think being complicit with the massacre of the Sunreavers nor helping reclaim Stromgarde which puts Quel'thalas in an even more risky situation would make the Blood Elves be good again with the High Elves.

- - - Updated - - -

Unless of course you're talking about those in Quel'danil.

I was more making a hypothetical response to Varadoc who was seemingly trying to hand wave away the importance of why void elves have a specific void look.

[Odintdk]

We don't ignore that. We just recognize that despite there being an extremely minor group of high elves aligned with the Alliance it doesn't change the fact the high elf race is a core race of the Horde, and making this minor group playable on the Alliance impedes on the playable uniqueness of the high elven group that has been on the Horde since TBC.



Mag'har did not cross faction bound



HMT did not cross faction boundaries.




KT did not cross faction boundaries.




Zandalari did not cross faction boundaries.




Nightborne were an equivalent trade for void elves. A Horde elf for an Alliance elf, both given minor aesthetical changes to offer some level of differentiation to their parent race, both being transformed from their parent race. Alliance aligned high elves wouldn't fit the bill.




Doesn't change the fact the high elf race is a core race of the Horde, thus the minor group of exiles aligned with the alliance are relegated as NPC's only so as to avoid blurring faction lines. Making them playable would make the high elf race de-facto neutral, which is not fair to Horde players or blood elf players at that.




You say this



Yet, its been explained time and time and time and time and time again that:

A)Pandaren were introduced as neutral, key word being introduced. The high elf race on the other hand was made playable on the Horde in TBC. To now make a group of high elf exiles on the Alliance playable would make the high elf race de-facto neutral, which is completely different to the Pandarens who were introduced as neutral from the very start. Again, apples to oranges. The Pandaren situation is completely irrelevant to this debate, a more comparable situation would be making Alteraci humans playable on the Horde... which would make the human race de-facto neutral and would blur faction lines,

and B) void elves and nightborne were an equivalent trade. Both were the elf model of each faction given to the other faction, both given aesthetical differences to their parent race, both being transformed from their parent race, both thematically different to their parent race. Again, high elves wouldn't have fit the bill as thematically and aesthetically they are the exact same as blood elves. They aren't physically transformed from blood elves either. The only difference is one of political view, which Blizzard don't view as enough to differentiate the two.. they clearly focus on aesthetic and thematic changes when it comes to implementing new playable races (ARs included). And in the case where aesthetic and thematic changes are minor from the parent race, they are typically then backed with 1000s of years of lore differentiation (such as HMT to normal tauren).

- - - Updated - - -



"After years of aiding the alliance but with little to no reward, the alliance high elf exiles realize that their future lies in re-uniting with their kin in Silvermoon and have decided to join their kin under the banner of the Horde".

There, problem solved.

Sorry but your "problem solver" implies a deviation from the void thematic of the void elves, which is A) what they're all about and B) is what makes them distinct enough in the first place to be an AR. Pealing away their unique void thematic only makes them blood elf... or is that what you want?

Pretty much this.

The majority of High Elves have agreed, and followed their leadership in changing their name to Bloodelves, in honor for the many fallen at the wake of the scourge.

The Bloodelves joined the Horde for reasons that make a LOT more sense than it would've had they joined this new post WC3 Alliance. Sylvanas Windrunner for one, a hero to her people (before and after her death), had created a faction from the remnants of the people of Lordaeron, which was the leading kingdom that the elves allied with long ago, and also rejected by the new Alliance.

The few minority of Highelves who primarily hid in Dalaran during their people's hour of need, and abandoned them later, do not represent the race in any way shape or form (aside from biology), they may aswell not exist. They simply do not and could not bring anything interesting or new to the story. They're just exiles with absent identity at this point, and the little work they've done for the new Alliance, is just that: Work to earn their keep. Besides, you already got exile elves that recently joined the Alliance, it'd be pretty redundant for the Alliance to become the faction that houses all sort of exiles and rejects.

The Bloodelves joined the horde more than 13 years ago at this point, which is the far bigger and longer period of the relevant, modern Warcraft storyline right now. It's time people gotten over their obsession with that event. It is what it is.

[Ielenia]

The few minority of Highelves who primarily hid in Dalaran during their people's hour of need, and abandoned them later,

"Hid"? "Abandoned"?

[FlubberPuddy]

"Hid"? "Abandoned"?

Not worth it. The people who diminish High Elves are the same type as those who will defend every one of Sylvanas's actions 'for greater good'.

The fact that the line 'the few minority Highelves....do not represent the race in any way shape or form' exists already gives insight into what kind of arguments are going to be made. They've already used a Red Herring, you're just going to get more.

People need to take a chill pill.

[Sharby]

Goodness me I cannot believe this thread is still going. I want Alliance high elves as much as the next guy but the more new customization options they show the more it seems like we won't get 'em.

Says who though.



That's the entire problem with being against this. There will never be a point in time where such a simple request isn't possible unless the game officially dies.



If you don't like Helves logically you should just ignore this thread and anything relating to it. You're only setting yourself up to fail by consistently fighting a losing battle.

I think there is merit to having a discussion if you disagree with their addition, but not enough to warrant page after page of circular arguments.


I think lots of the opposition against Helves in this thread is just people who like arguing for fun. I genuinely cannot see how its entertaining for a brick wall to try and convince a brick wall lol. I would rather see people post more model mock-ups and fanart tbh.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

After 800 pages, some people still don't understand that High Elf (species) =/= High Elf (affiliation). It's amazing,

They do understand; they just like to use the term High Elf as an umbrella term for the whole species because it obfuscates the conversation. When the schism occurred, it just became inaccurate to call High Elves the species as a whole when one of the resulting ideological groups retained the same name.

We don't call Darkspear Jungle Trolls when referring to them even when they are that, We call them, Darkspear Trolls, because there's specificity to refer Darkspear instead of Jungle Trolls.

- - - Updated - - -

The majority of High Elves have agreed, and followed their leadership in changing their name to Bloodelves, in honor for the many fallen at the wake of the scourge.

The majority indeed, that's the point. That some remained on the alliance. Regardless of any biased interpretation of why they did, the fact is that... they did, that there are High Elves on the alliance, and that is a fact regardless that the Blood Elves are more and are on the Horde.

[FlubberPuddy]

https://youtu.be/tMasO40DCK0

So that’s a video on Worgen Customization and one of the things MrGM points out is “Male Worgen will finally get to look like Genn Greymane!” by getting the white skin option and having yellow eyes.

This is further evidence that one of the things Blizzard is doing with the increased customizations is allowing players to be able to emulate their ‘racial leader’. Just as Blood Elves were datamined to be getting a face option like Lor’themar.

This goes all the way back to Wrath of the Lich King where Human males got a hairstyle that people called, “the Varian hairstyle”.

We’re most likely going to see more races being able to emulate their leaders.

For Void Elves it would be Alleria, who is considered their leader.

Oh and as Frenchvince pointed out, human males are datamined to be getting Kul’Tiran mustache/beard options.

So we already see the sharing of Allied Race and original race customizations.

[matrix123mko]

We don't care who invented it before or after. It's the alliance that has this option with just an important character who is a high-elf / void elf.
Blue eyes + farstrider tattoos, it's already 2 options not available for blood elves.

Blood elves have farstriders and they should have a tattoo option.

[elbleuet]

Blood elves have farstriders and they should have a tattoo option.

But they won't because that's a high elf thing.

Alleria who has some, is firmly Alliance.

[Obelisk Kai]

A lot better than claiming 'what makes you think it's a majority! I self-proclaim with no absolute evidence to the contrary that it's a mere hundred or so. The anti-position is quite clearly the majority despite me providing no evidence to back up such claims it's just because I say so!'.

Which is what I was pointing out. Now either please provide evidence to support your claim to the contrary. Or drop this line of argument which is clearly destroyed.

Or continue arguing it and looking inane for everyone else to see.

What are you talking about? Did you even read the response or are you responding to the response in your mind you THINK I made? Given your established habit of seeing what you want to see in any kind of commentary I believe that is a very valid possibility.

So, once again, the vast majority of people don't support the pro or anti positions. Stating that the vast majority of people don't support the pro position is not the same thing as insinuating they supporting the anti position. You were the one who said the majority supported the pro position, something for which there is no evidence at all.
The vast majority of people don't care.

And if you read the response, which you either didn't do or mentally rewrote as you did so into something you felt you could 'clearly destroy', you would see that the reference to a hundred people was a very, very, very rough number designed to cover the number of people who bother to comment on this topic across the multiple forums. Could be twice that, could be half that, but the same names keep cropping up.

You were the one who in response to that brought up the 700 people who upvoted the reddit post, which again is about the same number of people who signed the high elf petition. Which to you is seemingly a great success but also suggests the number of people who actively go out of their way to support your cause has never breached a thousand people. One of the pro High Elf tactics is to cite Blizzard changing their mind on classic servers as a demonstration getting them to change course is possible.
Comparing the numbers the classic movement achieved of a quarter of a million people voicing their support and comparing that to the pro High Elf failure to even get beyond a thousand people is therefore a very valid metric of puncturing this comparison.

So please, by all means, prove to me that the vast majority of people actively support the addition of high elves to the Alliance. That was your initial claim wasn't it( albeit couched in the quite nasty sentiment that Bellular is wisely shutting up because he shouldn't antagonise a majority with minority opinions)? You are the one seeking to change the status quo. You are the one who made the outlandish claim. I am quite confident in saying the vast majority of people don't care because the tools available to the pro High Elf movement were also used by the classic server movement, and they got a quarter of a million to your less than a thousand.

So please, prove me wrong.

[elbleuet]

Classic is an entire game/concept. High elves are a minor feature, and only asked by some from one of the 2 factions. Are you seriously comparing both ?

[Strippling]

But they won't because that's a high elf thing.

Alleria who has some, is firmly Alliance.

Tattoos are a farstrider thing. That is a fact. I fully expect tattoo options for blood elves (again not 100% guaranteed but I think a very high possibility)

- - - Updated - - -

Classic is an entire game/concept. High elves are a minor feature, and only asked by some from one of the 2 factions. Are you seriously comparing both ?

Pro high elfers have used the excuse "they said no to classic then changed their mind, they'll do the same for high elves". So pro high elfers have attempted to compare the two. Though as you correctly point out, they're not even comparable. One was a concept with a massive backing of 200,000+ signatures on its official classic petition, while the other is a concept which has a measly 700 signatures on its official petition. One comprised a massive supporting by the community at large, while, as you point out, the other comprises a few people from one of the factions asking for a race already playable.

[Obelisk Kai]

https://youtu.be/tMasO40DCK0

So that’s a video on Worgen Customization and one of the things MrGM points out is “Male Worgen will finally get to look like Genn Greymane!” by getting the white skin option and having yellow eyes.

This is further evidence that one of the things Blizzard is doing with the increased customizations is allowing players to be able to emulate their ‘racial leader’. Just as Blood Elves were datamined to be getting a face option like Lor’themar.

This goes all the way back to Wrath of the Lich King where Human males got a hairstyle that people called, “the Varian hairstyle”.

We’re most likely going to see more races being able to emulate their leaders.

For Void Elves it would be Alleria, who is considered their leader.

Oh and as Frenchvince pointed out, human males are datamined to be getting Kul’Tiran mustache/beard options.

So we already see the sharing of Allied Race and original race customizations.

You are assuming with absolutely zero evidence that being able to emulate the racial leader is an actual design goal. Your evidence? A white wolf skin tone previously one employed by Worgen racial leader Genn Greymane.

Worgen are anthropomorphic Wolves. A white Worgen skin tone is there not unexpected given white wolves are a thing in real life. It is actually more surprising the white tone wasn't there to begin with. They are quite famous. There is even a company who makes tabletop roleplaying games called white wolf.
It's addition therefore should not be presumed to be motivated by 'making players look like Genn' but more 'white is an obvious tone to add to Worgen, toss that in as well'.

This is yet another example of you attempting to interpret things out of context and extrapolate with no basis in order to support a conclusion you've already reached.

Your conclusion is 'Void Elves are going to be able to look like High Elves after the customisation pass'. You have therefore decided that the motive for granting white tones to Worgen is that it is to allow players to mimic their leader, Genn Greymane, rather than the far more likely motive that white was just an obvious generic wolf colour to toss into the mix.

You then extrapolated a motive you have no evidence for across to Void Elves and assume that the considerations that led to the creation of Void Elves in the first place, namely creating aesthetic and thematic distance between Void Elves and Blood/High Elves, will somehow no longer apply and they will be determined to ensure Void Elf players can look like their leader.

That is, to put it mildly, 'reaching'.

As is your final point of shared facial hairstyles. Sharing hairstyles and facial hair has been done for years between the core races. It happening with Void Elves is to be expected. Skin tone is a far more fundamental area though, given that Void Elf skin is the major aesthetic differentiator between Void Elves and Blood Elves. I have yet to see Orcs getting Mag'har tones, or Dwarves getting Dark Iron tones in their customisation passes. If that happens, maybe what you hope for has a chance of coming to pass.

- - - Updated - - -

Classic is an entire game/concept. High elves are a minor feature, and only asked by some from one of the 2 factions. Are you seriously comparing both ?

I'll be quite happy to stop comparing the two once pro High Elf commentators stop citing Blizzard changing it's mind on classic servers as precedent for a hypothetical changing of their mind on high elves within the Alliance. But if the example is cited, the interrogation of that example and the demonstration they aren't actually comparable at all is to be expected.

[elbleuet]

That doesn't go against what I just said.

And sorry, but the Farstriders are also in the Alliance. Also Silver Covenant rangers and Allerian high elves are former farstriders.

See Ros'Eleth's quote and see : https://wow.gamepedia.com/Farstrider_Lodge :

When I first arrived, I'd hoped to meet the town's namesake.

<Ros'eleth glances around.>

Most young high elves outgrow the 'I wanna be a Farstrider' phase by the time they're taken as apprentices. Then, it's onto the 'I'm going to be a magister' stage.

I don't think I ever quite outgrew the Farstrider phase, to be honest. No one dreams of growing up to be a seamstress, but we can't have the Farstriders running around naked, as my mother used to say.

Olemba Seeds
I've started a seed collection, but I'm going to need some help before I have enough to send back to the park in Stormwind.

That may not just be a blood elf thing from the start. Apparently you're not going to get blue eyes any time soon (but it can change ofc, beta is beta) so Blizzard likely akhnowleged high elves are high elves, and blood elves are blood elves and does not want to add additional confusions.

- - - Updated - - -

I'll be quite happy to stop comparing the two once pro High Elf commentators stop citing Blizzard changing it's mind on classic servers as precedent for a hypothetical changing of their mind on high elves within the Alliance. But if the example is cited, the interrogation of that example and the demonstration they aren't actually comparable at all is to be expected.

So you're basically admitting your comparison is bullshit.

Since TBC, High elves is the most requested thing when it comes to bring on the table additional races.

And I think up until Cataclysm, Ogres and Nagas were not far from that.

Blizzard can change its mind, that's a reality. Yet we don't know if it will. We'll just have to wait and see.

[Obelisk Kai]

You do know that you just need Ion or another wow decision maker to give the order to make this (any-) thing happen, just like they created void elves out of thin air

Having Alliance High Elves with the void elf starting screen and racials is a bit cringy, but if blizzard has choosen this path to give more subrace options as extra costumizations, well it is better than nothing. but at least they should give a visual animation update to the void elf racials for high elves.

Of course. If the developers change their mind they can easily make Alliance High Elves possible. But I think anyone who starts arguing that Blizzard can retcon the current situation is implicitly accepting the reality of the current situation regarding the exiles and their status.

Your second point is the slippery slope though and yet more proof that there is no unified pro High elf demand.

Some reject the idea of void elf customisation outright, only a pure High Elf option will do.

Others will accept void elf customisation.

But there are other for whom void elf customisation wouldn't be enough and would want updated racials. And maybe emotes. And the Paladin class wouldn't go amiss either.

There are levels of what is apparently acceptable and each individual differs on what they would accept.

Frankly I think what is likeliest to happen is that they'll give Void Elf players a monkey paw result. Normalish yet obviously void flawed skin tones that still drive home the message you are playing a Void Elf. I think they would be very, very wary of attempting to facilitate the 'de-voiding' of Void Elves as that is the core theme of the race. Think of their actions during the character model updates, they set out to rebuild the models but they also kept them spiritually in tune with what went before. Their philosophy was that someone playing a particular race clearly enjoyed that model, and that they were the people they had to please, not groups who hated the model and wanted Blizzard to transform it into something else they would prefer. The same philosophy should be presumed to be at work here and that whatever customisations void elves get, the won't violate or compromise the fantasy of being a void elf.

Because ultimately, just as there is a werewolf option in the game and nobody questions that despite it being Alliance only, there is a traditional style high elf option in the game and if people want to play that, well, the Horde IS waiting for them. Just as it would be unfair on Blood Elves to duplicate them to the Alliance, it is unfair on Void Elves to devalue their own fantasy and attempt to turn them into ersatz high elves.

- - - Updated - - -

So you're basically admitting your comparison is bullshit.

Since TBC, High elves is the most requested thing when it comes to bring on the table additional races.

And I think up until Cataclysm, Ogres and Nagas were not far from that.

Blizzard can change its mind, that's a reality. Yet we don't know if it will. We'll just have to wait and see.

Not at all, I am critiquing the comparison. The notion that Blizzard reversing course on classic servers presages a similar about turn on Alliance high elves has always been one of the sillier things blurted out by the pro high elf movement. That was a juggernaut of a movement that few other questions in WoW's history have ever replicated. The closest I can think of was the flying debacle of WOD where there was an outcry, and they did change (but not reverse course).

As for Blizzard changing their minds, well, we don't know if they will change their minds but it's not as if we have no evidence of which way they are leaning. Fifteen years of commentary can all be summed up in one message. Blood Elves are playable as the high elf option of WoW. If you want to play a high elf, the Horde is waiting for you. If you can't stomach the Horde, the high elf variant of void elves is a part of the Alliance.

[elbleuet]

Not at all, I am critiquing the comparison. The notion that Blizzard reversing course on classic servers presages a similar about turn on Alliance high elves has always been one of the sillier things blurted out by the pro high elf movement. That was a juggernaut of a movement that few other questions in WoW's history have ever replicated. The closest I can think of was the flying debacle of WOD where there was an outcry, and they did change (but not reverse course).

As for Blizzard changing their minds, well, we don't know if they will change their minds but it's not as if we have no evidence of which way they are leaning. Fifteen years of commentary can all be summed up in one message. Blood Elves are playable as the high elf option of WoW. If you want to play a high elf, the Horde is waiting for you. If you can't stomach the Horde, the high elf variant of void elves is a part of the Alliance.

Yet Ion said maybe there was a possibility to add some high elf costumization options so I don't really know what are you trying to say. Ofc we won't get High elves as a race.

But that's the same deal with the Highborne. But apparently, we could play some blond blue-eyed, light skinned night elves soon so ...