What's the most EVIL or heinous thing the Alliance has legally done?

[Varodoc]

Huh......thats fucked

That's not even the most fucked thing they did. Some citizens were not killed immediately, they were treated like dogs and forced to fight their family and friends for the orcs' pleasure.

[Melusine]

I havent forgotten the bombing of theramore, but that wasnt evil it was strategic. Theramore was there for a long time and was expanding, this is an agressive act. What did garrosh? He let information get out that he would attack theramore so that civillians wouldnt be there and then bombed it.

The bombing of Theramore was highly evil. The city itself was marshalled over by Jaina Proudmoore, who at that time was not an enemy of the Horde. Where her strong was, a small island off the coast of a swamp, where the Horde really wasn't too interested in settling, acting as if expanding in lands no one seemed to really want is not a sign of aggression, at least not until it starts raiding horde settlements or cities, or destroying them entirely to build upon those clearings... Theramore wasn't a military target. The bombing of Theramore was a terrorist attack, pure and simple.

Cataclysme garrosh was in my opinion the best one, but in MoP they just ruined him. In cataclysme you can see that he condemns the bombing of a druidisme academy and kills the general for it.

Garrosh is and always was a tool. I say this without reservation. Anyone who lives and dies by honor that just means winning at all costs, attacking the weak, employs sneak attacks, and insists at every turn to be as devious as possible, all the time is not honorable, just a bunch of feral savages that should be put down like rabid animals.

[Combatbutler]

The bombing of Theramore was highly evil. The city itself was marshalled over by Jaina Proudmoore, who at that time was not an enemy of the Horde. Where her strong was, a small island off the coast of a swamp, where the Horde really wasn't too interested in settling, acting as if expanding in lands no one seemed to really want is not a sign of aggression, at least not until it starts raiding horde settlements or cities, or destroying them entirely to build upon those clearings... Theramore wasn't a military target. The bombing of Theramore was a terrorist attack, pure and simple.

Jaina herself disagrees with that stance, Theramore was a marshal city, very much involved in the conflict, was its total eradication over the top? Most definitely, but it was a valid target nonetheless.

[TheRevenantHero]

The bombing of Theramore was highly evil. The city itself was marshalled over by Jaina Proudmoore, who at that time was not an enemy of the Horde. Where her strong was, a small island off the coast of a swamp, where the Horde really wasn't too interested in settling, acting as if expanding in lands no one seemed to really want is not a sign of aggression, at least not until it starts raiding horde settlements or cities, or destroying them entirely to build upon those clearings... Theramore wasn't a military target. The bombing of Theramore was a terrorist attack, pure and simple.



Garrosh is and always was a tool. I say this without reservation. Anyone who lives and dies by honor that just means winning at all costs, attacking the weak, employs sneak attacks, and insists at every turn to be as devious as possible, all the time is not honorable, just a bunch of feral savages that should be put down like rabid animals.

If Theramore was a terrorist attack then so was Dazar'alor. Theramore was the Alliance's largest naval installation. It was 100% a valid military target.

[Talrath]

The bombing of Theramore was highly evil. The city itself was marshalled over by Jaina Proudmoore, who at that time was not an enemy of the Horde. Where her strong was, a small island off the coast of a swamp, where the Horde really wasn't too interested in settling, acting as if expanding in lands no one seemed to really want is not a sign of aggression, at least not until it starts raiding horde settlements or cities, or destroying them entirely to build upon those clearings... Theramore wasn't a military target. The bombing of Theramore was a terrorist attack, pure and simple.



Garrosh is and always was a tool. I say this without reservation. Anyone who lives and dies by honor that just means winning at all costs, attacking the weak, employs sneak attacks, and insists at every turn to be as devious as possible, all the time is not honorable, just a bunch of feral savages that should be put down like rabid animals.

With theramore I disagree, through theramore the Alliance was expanding into the barrens and other places, it was definitely an act of agression. But considering that garrosh went into ashenvale, the Alliance expansion into the was justified but it was still an aggressive move that made garrosh act.

I agree that Garrosh is a tool, Always doing something before thinking about it but that is perfect for the horde lore. Garrosh keeps doing stupid stuff for the entire horde and making peace between the two faction impossible. I know i know, the guy up already said that the druid academy quest wasnt cannon cuz blizzard was retarded in checking things, but I actually like that part. The lessons he learned from saurfang in Northrend and even though he was still quite not controllable because of his young age, the writers could have made him mature because of leadership and be less violent and more calculating. But nope they killed him in the MoP.

[qwerty123456]

they didn't take the land. before the trolls lived in that section of the Eastern Kingdoms, nobody lived there. So they can't take the land if there is nobody to take it from. The only thing they'd take the land from is the local wildlife. So....yeah. I'm ok with how the trolls got it because unlike humans and elves, they didn't kill the native races of those lands in order to get it.

The entire continent had been covered by the old gods and then their followers. And you keep saying native races and yet trolls are just as unnatural as all the other ones you keep handwaving.

Humans are apes IRL.

Other species of apes ^.

[TheRevenantHero]

The entire continent had been covered by the old gods and then their followers. And you keep saying native races and yet trolls are just as unnatural as all the other ones you keep handwaving.


Other species of apes ^.

The Black Empire fell long before trolls came into existence. The Old Gods were imprisoned and their minions essentially went into hibernation. How are trolls unnatural if they literally evolved from Azeroth's fauna? They were created like the Old Gods and Titan creations were. The forest trolls settled in their section of the world at a time when not other race was there. The quel'dorei and humans invaded and ultimately committed genocide against the forest trolls. All the trolls were doing was fighting back against said invaders.

[qwerty123456]

The Black Empire fell long before trolls came into existence. The Old Gods were imprisoned and their minions essentially went into hibernation. How are trolls unnatural if they literally evolved from Azeroth's fauna? They were created like the Old Gods and Titan creations were. The forest trolls settled in their section of the world at a time when not other race was there. The quel'dorei and humans invaded and ultimately committed genocide against the forest trolls. All the trolls were doing was fighting back against said invaders.

Have you never heard of the troll Aqir wars?

If the old gods didn't intervene the Elementals would have still been constantly fighting and it would have been much harder for other lifeforms to form. And if the Titans didn't deal with the old gods theres no way in hell Trolls would have existed. They either would have been killed off before they became trolls or proto trolls would have been enslaved by the old gods. Also if the well of eternity didnt exist then we have no idea if trolls would have ever made it to the civilization stage wolvar could have ended up being the dominant lifeform for all we know. Or if everything happened except the well all the titanforged would have became fleshy beings long before trolls ever came into being.

And you still haven't explained why trolls are somehow special but elves are an abomination.

[rarhyx]

purge of dalaran or was that a jaina alone thing?

[willtron]

Probs the Defias or letting a dragon into their inner circle. No wait, that second one is just stupidity.

[Minikin]

Well, Rell's a weakling - and honestly the whole Alliance team is absolutely horrible in Jade Forest. I don't think I ever met more eye-rolling "major" zone NPC like them...

How dare you talk about socks like that! He was a great racoon!!!

[Magical Mudcrab]

<snip>

The problem with assuming sharing a name makes them the same thing is that it applies to both the Horde and Alliance, especially considering that these names incredibly generic. It would be like me saying that the Horde and Old Horde are the same, and then providing instances in which the Old Horde was referred to as the Horde. Though, because I know someone will jump on it if I don't address it, I'm not going to make the claim that the Old Horde and the current Horde are the same -- we know that Thrall has intentionally tried to lead them away from that.

It's the same Alliance according to Metzen himself:

The various cultures of Azeroth, who were never fast friends. There was no love lost between them. They had no common heritage. They had no common history. They really didn't like each other down the stretch of years. But in the face of this onslaught—in response to these badass orc leaders—they came together. And they founded a union based on honor and righteousness. And a deep seeded drive to dispense indiscriminate justice upon those who threatened their homelands. This Alliance saved the world. Alliance, do you remember who you are!? YOU ARE THE ALLIANCE OF LORDAERON! Champions of justice and I love you for it. (Source)

It's a little strange that Metzen made that statement, given that the original Warcraft Visual Guide, which was released the same year as that Blizzcon, stated the current Alliance was inspired by the Alliance of Lordaeron, not that they were the same.

Though above I'm arguing against it above, I have considered what you posted from Wolfheart and how Varian regarded the Gilneans, acting as though their request for entry would be readmission. Varian probably considers it a form of carrying the torch, trying to keep the original Alliance alive. I also took a quick look to see the old member states of the Alliance of Lordaeron, and see that, as of BFA, the Alliance now has most of the original member Kingdoms (5/7 of the original Human Kingdoms under its banner and 3/4 of the original Non-Human Kingdoms). That said, call it cognitive dissonance, but I still don't know if I would consider them the same as they seem to be, if you look at their actions and makeup from the outside, completely different entities. Who knows, maybe when I have a chance to think more about it I'll fully come around.

[Varodoc]

If the Grand Alliance is the Alliance of Lordaeron then Thrall's Horde is the Old Horde. If you are going to blame the Alliance for the internment camps, you are also going to blame the Horde for Gul'dan's and Ner'zhul's actions. End of story.

[sam86]

Yeah, how dare the Draeneï not dare sacrifice themselves futily against Sargeras.

-U mean like what draenei HD did and in case u missed it, they are still alive and well when we meet them in Legion? in fact with how incompetent BL is, the chance that BL would been over if all exiled ones stood united instead majority of them run away is quite high
-Orcs killed themselves as much as they killed Draenei, and while draenei earned it with deception and lot of innocent blood to stay alive (they have zero basis to claim they are good, just selfish), and if ur memory is bad or lore isn't good, u can check it whiteclaw for example
-The well of eternity blew by Malfurion spell -.-, and i doubt he fathered any belf
- Belfs should have same blood as High elves, but since High elves proud themselves on opposing anything belfs did and vice versa, they ironically cleaned belf hands from the very obvious troll blood
- They still attacked them on sight, something when actual demons did appear they run away deep in forest instead -.-, this entire problem could been easily solved with talking, they refuse
- In what regard? Humans are seriously the worst, the easiest race to corrupt, it is why Neltharion toyed with them

[Caerule]

There was that time in Pandaria where they used Pandaren workers. And they executed Horde soldiers helplessly swimming to shore to surrender.

[Keristrasza]

Massacre of Tamp Taurajo

"General Hawthorne, who led the assault, had nonetheless ordered his men to give the townsfolk an opening in their defensive lines for the civilians to escape. Baine Bloodhoof believed that Camp Taurajo was a legitimate military target, as the camp trained hunters and warriors,[6] and the tauren army only moved in after the late General Hawthorne had ensured that the civilians of Camp Taurajo would be allowed to leave unharmed, as he didn't give the order to massacre anyone and refused to slaughter civilians. The survivors, along with some of the survivors of Honor's Stand, fled to Camp Una'fe in the Overgrowth."

As someone who has played both sides of the quest of Camp T, I can safely say the alliance gets far too much "Credit" of being "evil" over it. All they are truly guilty of is letting innocent men, women and children escape safely. Some people died, but only those who chose to stand and defend their home. Those left meandering around its ruins are literal war time criminals whom alliance members are sent to arrest or kill if they refuse to surrender.

As for the original question, I am genuinely hard-pressed to think of any horrible act pulled outside of Pandera, but as someone else had asked. Was the upper brass even aware of what was occurring? Something tells me no. When it comes to underhanded, disgusting, savage like behavior .... its left to ... other factions to handle. I wouldn't be upset to SEE them do some pretty shitty things, but to be honest. The only time they do anything even "close" to awful, its usually pushed out of them by the horde.

[Manariel]

How dare you talk about socks like that! He was a great racoon!!!

Why did you have to remind me of it !

Why ! You monster ! You... You're worse than Sylvanas ! There, i said it !

[Mehrunes]

If we're including past versions of the Alliance, meaning the Alliance of Lordaeron, I'd say putting the orcs in internment camps, but the alternative was executing them all... So, I mean, really which one would have been worse?

Why are Alliance-leaning posters always magically forgetting that the most common result of any and all wars ever fought was forcing the defeated party to GTFO back home rather than killing them all or setting up a giant internment system for them?

If we're talking about The Grand Alliance (Alliance post WC3TFT), then... I donno, the thing where the were forcing the pandaren to be laborers in the one zone in MoP maybe? Did leadership even know about that? I doubt it was sanctioned.

It's the same Alliance. And that isn't even the worst thing the Alliance did in Pandaria, or that zone of Pandaria. Shortly before that they were merrily shooting defenseless shipwrecks.

its always amusing when horde fanatics bring this up as a point AGAINST aliance,they had no ways of sending them back to outlands,so housing them to make sure they arent a danger anymore was the most moral thing to do,but ofc for horde fanatics doing that is LITERALY worse than the horde comiting multiple genosides and burning babies alive

And other than railing about MUH HORDE FANATICS what exactly do you have to support that notion? Khadgar deactivated the Dark Portal from Azerothian side only after the Second War ended. Nothing prevented him from doing that only after the Orcs were marched through it if that was Alliance's decision.

3 times. After the second war, after MoP, and BFA.

Out of those, only the Second War is correct. At the end of BfA the Alliance characters themselves comment on how Sylvanas' forces outnumbered them even with the addition of Saurfang and his bunch of traitors to the Horde. And at the end of MoP the Alliance outright ceded Azshara to the Horde so that they would graciously leave Ashenvale. That's not exactly what victors in a war do. Which could have something to do with how to prior to Darkspear Rebellion Alliance had its ass kicked for nearly three years, losing multiple zones (that they never got back), most of its fleet, non-human members of their stronger army, huge personnel losses all around and so on. Varian making a threat doesn't mean there was anything tangible backing that threat.

[cparle87]

Dalaran was a human state founded during the twilight of Arathor, High elves did not help found it nor were they members of the kirin-tor until the human mages reckless use of magic started attracting demons.

I'm not saying anything else in your post was wrong or that the elves don't shave some claim to dalaran but it was absolutely a human kingdom.


Who would do somthing like that? Just go on the internet and tell lies?"

It was founded by mages who wanted a city of their own where they could practice magic however they wanted without oversight from Arathor. Why did humans even have mages in the first place? Cause high elves taught them. Who have lived in Dalaran since the beginning. High elves. Who were often on its ruling council? High elves. It would be like if a handful of keepers of the grove did something bad so the Cenarion Circle decided to expel all keepers, dryads, and Cenarius himself from Moonglade.

[Mehrunes]

Every single Alliance action is justifiable, hordes not so much. After lich king, horde got Azshara but still invaded Ashenvale and started killing everyone. Why would you even attack if you got a zone that`s a really good price. Then there is the time where horde soldiers attacked the Alliance from behind and called it glorious. The Alliance at the time were fighting the scourge, heck even garrosh is glad about it, a high ranking officer. Then there is garrosh who started destroying his own horde. Sylvanis allowing the invasion in kul tiras where people get spiked against walls and such. Sylvanis tortures infront of everyone and all find it okay cuz she got the support of the people, she burnes Teldrassil and people of horde celebrate it, and i can go on and on.

The Alliance ceded Azshara to the Horde only after MoP. Besides, even with some Goblin settlement there at the start of Cata, The Shattering makes it clear that the Horde couldn't survive (especially after Orgrimmar went up in flames because of the Elemental Upheaval) without the lumber from Ashenvale after Night Elves broke the trade treaty. And Alliance's attack on the Barrens predates Horde's invasion of the Barrens anyway. And Garrosh was not glad about the attack at the Broken Front. He reprimanded the officer in charge of the area.

I havent forgotten the bombing of theramore, but that wasnt evil it was strategic. Theramore was there for a long time and was expanding, this is an agressive act. What did garrosh? He let information get out that he would attack theramore so that civillians wouldnt be there and then bombed it.

Technically Garrosh didn't release that information, Baine did when he betrayed the Horde. But Garrosh still intended to sit on his ass at the gates of Theramore because his plan was to lure as many Alliance reinforcements as possible, so at the end of the day he gave the civilians time to flee.

Cataclysme garrosh was in my opinion the best one, but in MoP they just ruined him. In cataclysme you can see that he condemns the bombing of a druidisme academy and kills the general for it.

And as per the very writer who wrote the Stonetalon questline it was a mistake because he didn't pay attention to what the overall direction for Garrosh was.