Returning Player getting "Overwhelmed"

[Raelbo]

I'm sorry, but telling someone he has a superiority complex, because his desired reward to "punishment" ratio is different to yours is a bit silly.

Lol. I did no such thing. I asked a question while stating how he comes across.

Especially when you have to define "punishment" as "only gets rewarded according to the effort/gear quality curve" that you yourself have acknowledged should exist.

I never defined "punishment" in that way at all. What I was doing was pointing out that restricting gear outside of group content to 425 as being inconsistent with getting rewarded according to the effort/gear quality curve.

In what possible world is restricting people to 425 necessary in order to preserve the effort/gear quality curve?

Dont get me wrong, I'm okay with some catch up mechanisms and gear that is a bit above said curve (emissary rewards for instance). But your opinion on where the sweet spot is isnt any more objective than his. And wanting the game to adhere a bit more rigorous to the curve than you want is not a character flaw. Its just a gameplay preferance.

Although I didn't really delve into what I would consider fair (since I was really just trying to understand where he was coming from first), I think that there are objectively reasonable parameters that can be applied.

WoW is a progression based game which means that the point of gear is to enable you to move to progressively more difficult content. If the gear you are getting isn't good enough to enable you to ever progress, then that is punishing. By the same token, gear that is so powerful that it trivialises harder content is also hugely problematic.

Like I said above, I don't understand why he thinks it is necessary to restrict gear from non-group content to 425 because he never bothered to substantiate his stance. So I can only try and guess as to what rationale there might be behind such reasons, but even then (accepting the requirement for an effort/gear quality relationship) his standpoint still doesn't make any sense.


Secondly, I am making an assumption here that this is a restriction that wouldn't affect him personally. So unless I am wrong in that assumption, then this really isn't about personal preference at all, it's about wanting to impose rules on other players for reasons that remain vague.

[Zephire]

I feel like this is a returning player-issue, right? Would you say that new players experience the same?

What I'm curious about is since it's basically the same for a new player as for a returning one, do they experience it completely different? The returning wanting back to the level they feel like they belong as quickly as possible while the new player have so much to learn, so much to explore and try out they don't even think about that? Is the farm okay for them?

I'd probably have a blast as a new player, at least half-way to endgame. Getting flying, the cloak, doing PvP, learning about corruption, experience m0 and m+ and raids.

OT:
Maybe a bit overwhelming? Or rather, time consuming. The time-gating is horrible and should be long gone by now for essences imo.

[Raelbo]

dont you need 4800 experience with the followers to get rank 3 lucid dreams? So claiming that you can get it within 10 days is just stupid.

I suspect what he was talking about was going from rank 2 to rank 3, which required 3K experience. (It appears that it has since been nerfed so that you only need an extra 1.8K).

Blood of the enemy is a pain to get aswell, especially if you havent done a BG in BFA like me. I got a rank 2 and not even going to try rank 3.

I don't think anyone was arguing that there aren't some essences that can be a pain to get for a somewhat casual player. Rather that it isn't necessary to get all those essences....

To me the OP comes across as a bit of a "I want to have my cake and eat it" whine. The design of the essence system is to cater for players who are around during the content. And yes, they do also cater for people who have decided to take an extended break. But obviously, if you're going to leave the game for several months, you're going to have a bit of catching up to do. And I really think that the idea that you can come back and be cutting edge in a few days is just silly. And this is why he is overwhelmed, because instead of focusing on what he needs in order to get back into the game, he is obsessing over trying to get to the front of the pack again.

I see zero reason why the game should cater for that.

[owbu]

Lol. I did no such thing. I asked a question while stating how he comes across.

I never defined "punishment" in that way at all. What I was doing was pointing out that restricting gear outside of group content to 425 as being inconsistent with getting rewarded according to the effort/gear quality curve.

In what possible world is restricting people to 425 necessary in order to preserve the effort/gear quality curve?

Although I didn't really delve into what I would consider fair (since I was really just trying to understand where he was coming from first), I think that there are objectively reasonable parameters that can be applied.

WoW is a progression based game which means that the point of gear is to enable you to move to progressively more difficult content. If the gear you are getting isn't good enough to enable you to ever progress, then that is punishing. By the same token, gear that is so powerful that it trivialises harder content is also hugely problematic.

Like I said above, I don't understand why he thinks it is necessary to restrict gear from non-group content to 425 because he never bothered to substantiate his stance. So I can only try and guess as to what rationale there might be behind such reasons, but even then (accepting the requirement for an effort/gear quality relationship) his standpoint still doesn't make any sense.

Secondly, I am making an assumption here that this is a restriction that wouldn't affect him personally. So unless I am wrong in that assumption, then this really isn't about personal preference at all, it's about wanting to impose rules on other players for reasons that remain vague.

I never bought the "I didnt say you were an asshole! I only asked if you know how much of asshole you seem to be" line, but okay :>



Yes, he should probably explain why he thinks 425 is a good number himself. Otherwise its somewhat hard to discuss why he thinks it might be a good idea :>

My post was mostly about how stuff like emissary rewards, warfront rewards and so on are intentionally designed to make it possible to skip the current "normal" pve progression by just waiting it out. They are above the effort/reward curve, because the devs wanted to create a catch up for people who only log in occasionaly.

And while that certainly has its advantages, I think that you can want to play a game with normalized gear progression without caring about what gear other players are getting.

I do not like the current progression system on my alts. It makes me feel like just logging out after the "daily" content is done is the optimal way to play. I really prefer the classic way of "where you log off is where you are when you log back in". And I do not think that Worldquests take anything but time and a certain willingness to bore yourself for loot to complete. Which ranks them very low on my desired "effort to reward" ratio and I think the game would be a better game, if it would avoid rewarding such activities beyond giving you basic post leveling equipment. Not because I want to take away other peoples loot, but because I think it's promoting bad incentives.

[Raelbo]

I never bought the "I didnt say you were an asshole! I only asked if you know how much of asshole you seem to be" line, but okay :>

And again, to be fair, I never said he had a superiority complex. I quite specifically said it seemed as if he was wanting to punish a specific segment of the player base.

My post was mostly about how stuff like emissary rewards, warfront rewards and so on are intentionally designed to make it possible to skip the current "normal" pve progression by just waiting it out.

People often talk about this as if it's a bad thing...

They are above the effort/reward curve, because the devs wanted to create a catch up for people who only log in occasionaly.

I don't believe that they're above the effort/reward curve at all. Yes, it's a lot less effort to acquire "catch up gear" in the following tier than to acquire the same ilevel gear while the tier is current, but by the same token, the value of that gear is significantly higher while the tier is current. Hence the effort/reward curve is the same, because the value of ilevel is a function of when you get it.

And while that certainly has its advantages, I think that you can want to play a game with normalized gear progression without caring about what gear other players are getting.

If you play the game consistently, you have a normalised gear progression. Catch up mechanisms only come into effect if you end up falling behind for some reason.

Yes, I get that maybe some people missed out half of the expansion and want to go through the experience of progressing through Uldir -> BoD -> CoS -> AEP -> Nya'Lotha. But the reality is that this is not feasible as a workable model unless you're actually there to participate while each of those tiers was current. And getting rid of catch up mechanism won't fix anything, it will just screw things up horribly, like it was during Vanilla and TBC - which only worked back then because the game and players were still new.

If the "normalised progression" chain becomes too long, what ends up happening is that the playerbase fragments, and the vast majority of players land up stuck on a tier and unable to progress and experience all the content. Which sucks. This is why, from WotLK onwards, the game made sure you were always caught up after a tier finished.

I do not like the current progression system on my alts. It makes me feel like just logging out after the "daily" content is done is the optimal way to play.

That really depends on what you're trying to achieve with your alts. For what it's worth, it's also optimal for most of my alts, because I am not trying to do any particularly challenging content with them - that's what my main is for.

I really prefer the classic way of "where you log off is where you are when you log back in".

Which is a fine model for a new game with new characters. WoW worked perfectly like that until they started adding expansions with challenging content, but pretty much by the end of TBC it was a completely unsustainable model that was threatening to kill the game. Hence the changes with WotLK.

And I do not think that Worldquests take anything but time and a certain willingness to bore yourself for loot to complete. Which ranks them very low on my desired "effort to reward" ratio and I think the game would be a better game, if it would avoid rewarding such activities beyond giving you basic post leveling equipment. Not because I want to take away other peoples loot, but because I think it's promoting bad incentives.

But WQ loot is "basic post leveling equipment". Because that's what all loot between 266 greens and around 420 is anyway. Even the top end emissary rewards, which cap out at 445, are only low end raiding equivalent, and because of scaling, if all you're doing is world quests to get that gear, it's going to take you months before you even access it. Meaning that it's earned on the basis of effort and perseverance alone.

So I am really not sure what "bad incentives" this is promoting. If you want good gear to do hard content, you're not going to get it from WQs. I don't think I've even used any WQ gear on my main since I started raiding HC Uldir. The main point of it is to allow someone who hasn't been around during Uldir/BoD/EAP/ to participate in current tier content - designed for those players who were around for the normal progression - without having to try and progress through 3 raid tiers in which the vast majority of the playerbase has no interest in doing anymore.

[Trend]

I agree gear should really cap out at 425 outside of group content and there shouldn't be these "events" that hand out powerful gear. People should be doing harder content to gear not simply log in everyday.

What are you talking about? You think gear over 425 is powerful?

You've said a lot of odd things in this thread.

[Laughingjack]

What are you talking about? You think gear over 425 is powerful?

You've said a lot of odd things in this thread.

It should be base line from heroic and greater gear should be earned by doing harder content not via procs or events.

[Trend]

It should be base line from heroic and greater gear should be earned by doing harder content not via procs or events.

You didn't answer the question. What are you talking about? What event gives gear that is too powerful?

[kranur]

Returning player? I didn't even take a break and don't know where shit comes from. Simcraft does.

Like a good chunk of my damage comes from stuff that I don't know what it is and where it is from.

Easy to learn, hard to master. Bahahahhahaa.

[Laughingjack]

You didn't answer the question. What are you talking about? What event gives gear that is too powerful?

Any above 425 with perhaps the exception of the mythic dungeon event.

[Trend]

Any above 425 with perhaps the exception of the mythic dungeon event.

So you think anything above 425 is "powerful"? I'll be honest, that seems really strange. Are you a normal raider and you want your 445 to be special somehow even though that is totally inferior to real endgame gear?

I also find it strange how you've spent so much time in this thread complaining about how hard it is to catch up, yet you want them to make it more tedious to catch up.

[Laughingjack]

So you think anything above 425 is "powerful"? I'll be honest, that seems really strange. Are you a normal raider and you want your 445 to be special somehow even though that is totally inferior to real endgame gear?

I also find it strange how you've spent so much time in this thread complaining about how hard it is to catch up, yet you want them to make it more tedious to catch up.

I think anything above 425 is when progression should be tied to completing ever harder content not rewarded for repetitive challenge less content.

I want the catch ups to be based on skills. Not time gates or grind gates.

[Gaidax]

I think anything above 425 is when progression should be tied to completing ever harder content not rewarded for repetitive challenge less content.

I want the catch ups to be based on skills. Not time gates or grind gates.

I remember the days when this was the case and it caused a huge segregation between players that was literally impossible to gap.

I think current way gear works is ideal (minus PvP, where it's sort of scuffed) - Mythic raiders still get THE best gear, but others are not scampering in the dirt either. I never understood this obsession by people to deny others access to decent gear, I mean, do you feel threatened by some random Billy getting a decent item here and there?

[Trend]

I think anything above 425 is when progression should be tied to completing ever harder content not rewarded for repetitive challenge less content.

I want the catch ups to be based on skills. Not time gates or grind gates.

Your 425 is completely arbitrary. That's what you don't seem to be able to comprehend. Whether it is 445 or 425 or 380 or 1, it has no impact on the real endgame. That's why I'm guessing you're probably a normal raider if that. In my experience, it is only subpar players who care what "lesser" players have or don't have.

You're entitled to your opinions, but if you want a game where time investments don't matter and it's just 100% skill, an MMO is a terrible choice.

[Laughingjack]

I remember the days when this was the case and it caused a huge segregation between players that was literally impossible to gap.

I think current way gear works is ideal (minus PvP, where it's sort of scuffed) - Mythic raiders still get THE best gear, but others are not scampering in the dirt either. I never understood this obsession by people to deny others access to decent gear, I mean, do you feel threatened by some random Billy getting a decent item here and there?

I never really saw it as impossible myself. There was a gap I won't argue that but you could follow the exact same path the raider did to get to where they were.

- - - Updated - - -

Your 425 is completely arbitrary. That's what you don't seem to be able to comprehend. Whether it is 445 or 425 or 380 or 1, it has no impact on the real endgame. That's why I'm guessing you're probably a normal raider if that. In my experience, it is only subpar players who care what "lesser" players have or don't have.

You're entitled to your opinions, but if you want a game where time investments don't matter and it's just 100% skill, an MMO is a terrible choice.

It is where your progression should stop without group play as it is below what a mythic zero would drop.

[Gaidax]

I never really saw it as impossible myself. There was a gap I won't argue that but you could follow the exact same path the raider did to get to where they were.

You kidding? Ha ha ha, good one mate.

Nope. TBC was the pinnacle of shit when it came to this, with literal shambling hordes of poached to shit guilds forever stuck in SSC/Tempest Keep - people literally were cockblocked from progress.

As for Vanilla - it was its own can of worms. By the end of Vanilla my healer paladin had enough offspec Naxx gear to the point I could flip spec, go PvP and literally oneshot 85% of the people I'd meet in BGs in one autoattack with SoC proc. It was sure fun for me, I was ~18 back then, felt great being a dick, especially because the game literally encouraged that.

But sure, I could go to said guys I oneshotted and tell them: "Just go get gear from Naxx 4head", what's the problem, boys - it's right there - you can have it!

I mean... really.


No, I much prefer things as they are now, because being Mythic raider I still get creme de la creme gear in fastest fashion possible, but at least when I go against guys who are not quite there in either PvE and PvP, they at least stand a chance to not be obliterated just because they have HP I can evaporate in one nuke or DPS that rivals my imp.

Heck I even benefit from it when it comes to seldom PuG activities I do, for example with corruption vendor it suddenly made sense to try and get mecha ring with haste proc and I can do it with PuGs without wanting to slit my wrists... too much.

And even then - odds are the guys who don't have Nyalotha on farm like me, will still mostly have inferior gear. So "muh feels" preserved, if that's your cup of tea.

[munkeyinorbit]

By this logic, nothing is required.

It's not when the op is getting carried. What op thinks he is entitled to is catch-up gear mailed to him. OP doesn't need it because he admits he has already been carried through the content.

[Trend]

It is where your progression should stop without group play as it is below what a mythic zero would drop.

And it is still arbitrary and it still does not matter. How would you enjoy the game more if it was harder for other people to get slightly less shitty gear? It just doesn't make any sense.

[Laughingjack]

And it is still arbitrary and it still does not matter. How would you enjoy the game more if it was harder for other people to get slightly less shitty gear? It just doesn't make any sense.

I find the journey enjoyable. I would have a lot more fun if gearing a alt worked like tbc over the current game. Your focus on thinking everything is done to hurt others is a bit depressing though.

- - - Updated - - -

You kidding? Ha ha ha, good one mate.

Nope. TBC was the pinnacle of shit when it came to this, with literal shambling hordes of poached to shit guilds forever stuck in SSC/Tempest Keep - people literally were cockblocked from progress.

As for Vanilla - it was its own can of worms. By the end of Vanilla my healer paladin had enough offspec Naxx gear to the point I could flip spec, go PvP and literally oneshot 85% of the people I'd meet in BGs in one autoattack with SoC proc. It was sure fun for me, I was ~18 back then, felt great being a dick, especially because the game literally encouraged that.

But sure, I could go to said guys I oneshotted and tell them: "Just go get gear from Naxx 4head", what's the problem, boys - it's right there - you can have it!

I mean... really.


No, I much prefer things as they are now, because being Mythic raider I still get creme de la creme gear in fastest fashion possible, but at least when I go against guys who are not quite there in either PvE and PvP, they at least stand a chance to not be obliterated just because they have HP I can evaporate in one nuke or DPS that rivals my imp.

Heck I even benefit from it when it comes to seldom PuG activities I do, for example with corruption vendor it suddenly made sense to try and get mecha ring with haste proc and I can do it with PuGs without wanting to slit my wrists... too much.

And even then - odds are the guys who don't have Nyalotha on farm like me, will still mostly have inferior gear. So "muh feels" preserved, if that's your cup of tea.

There was less poaching in tbc then there is now... Not seeing it because of difficulty settings rather then tiers doesn't mean anything has changed.

I find it depressing you consider a rpg nothing more then a game of keeping up with the keeping up with the jonses

[kaminaris]

I find the journey enjoyable. I would have a lot more fun if gearing a alt worked like tbc over the current game. Your focus on thinking everything is done to hurt others is a bit depressing though.

I sincerely doubt that. You would have a problem to find a group willing to do old content.
You would end up being extremely frustrated and quit, like new players who tried to jump in middle of expansion.