Icecrown (Spoilers)

[Minikin]

Makes sense - is that how the three lies were reconciled? I'm still not entirely sure what the hell they even were. Unless we're just gonna skip right over those.

As much as I'm tired of killing Horde leaders, pretty sure Calia's wildly unpopular no matter where on the factional ideology compass you are.



I do feel they spent an inordinately higher amount of time focusing on Anduin than anyone else, albeit we dunno how extensive the cutscene of the Jailer shoving Baine off the rise (LOL) is.

And thus the sport of cow tipping was born in WoW

[Darth-Piekus]

I don't think any short story relates Nathanos as being so frail any PC character could beat him - he was a peerless Ranger in life and exceedingly powerful in undeath, so much so that the Alliance wanted him assassinated as a major threat. "Champion of the Banshee Queen" isn't an appellation that Sylvanas would hand out willy-nilly, either. Raid bosses are generally powerful beings that are threats in their own right - "it's just game mechanics" isn't really a great argument against that.

As for Sylvanas, I'd say you're right - except for this odd argument i.e. Danuser. Villains always get their power from the author of the story, regardless of who the author is. Your argument here is rather silly, since I could say something like "well, Sauron got all his powers from Tolkien's ass so he's a terrible villain." Well of course he did, Tolkien created Sauron after all. But basically put, Sylvanas has the power that the Jailer gives her - as she needs more to do whatever he gives her more to do it. And since the Jailer is a veritable demigod he's got the juice to spare, but Sylvanas is also dependent on him as a result of using said power. When Sylvanas attempts to betray him (which, to me, is almost a certainty) that dependence is very likely to bite her on the ass.

On the other hand though it mentions that her minions meaning some agents of the Jailer did went up and abducted various Alliance and Horde leaders. The question though remains to how can that be possible since these key characters should be under guard inside fortified cities and both armies on high alert ready to defend not to mention these key leaders are powerful. Does that mean that they now have the ability to assasinate any faction anytime? That is what the story lacks. Sense.

[Aucald]

On the other hand though it mentions that her minions meaning some agents of the Jailer did went up and abducted various Alliance and Horde leaders. The question though remains to how can that be possible since these key characters should be under guard inside fortified cities and both armies on high alert ready to defend not to mention these key leaders are powerful. Does that mean that they now have the ability to assasinate any faction anytime? That is what the story lacks. Sense.

No idea there, but probably something requiring more context. Any and/or all of these individuals could've been travelling, or the Jailer's minions could've sidestepped out of the Shadowlands to abduct them, who really knows. As for why they weren't assassinated it seems like the Jailer and/or Sylvanas needs them for something, hence their imprisonment as opposed to their deaths. None of this is beyond the pale or rocket science, really; we lack some detail but then we're only looking at a single event in isolation as well. There are cut-scenes missing, probably content not yet implemented, etc. etc. Same when everyone was indulging in wild mass-guessing as concerns the finale of the War of Thorns at the beginning of BfA, you had all kinds of wild theories and partially baked speculation. That's fine, all in all, but it shouldn't shape the totality of your judgment either.

[Soon-TM]

If she wants to be Queen of Lordaeron then she should be with the Argents, not the Forsaken.

Legitimizing the Forsaken explicitly ruins their theme.

They are no longer "forsaken", they might as well rename themselves to the Embraced or some !@#$

[Kathranis]

Well yes and no

Professionals don't flip at a dime, and Valeera isn't "that kind" of rogue anyway

Valeera is one of the Uncrowned. Their whole deal is basically to manipulate the leadership of nations as they see fit.

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From any sensible writing standpoint the better angle for the Forsaken is for them to develop BEYOND the identity of a dead kingdom

Strong disagree. Ever since Wrath of the Lich King I've wanted the theme of the Forsaken to be, "the citizens of Lordaeron died defending it, and in undeath they lay rightful claim to it."

[Lieutenant Commander]

If the horde now starts LARPing about being Lordaeronz 'n shit I hope I never hear about internment camps and Garithos again.

[Soon-TM]

If the horde now starts LARPing about being Lordaeronz 'n shit I hope I never hear about internment camps and Garithos again.

That would be Golden's twisted version of what the Forsaken are supposed to be. Not really surprising, since she hard retconned 14 years of lore at a whim of her pen.

[Lieutenant Commander]

That would be Golden's twisted version of what the Forsaken are supposed to be. Not really surprising, since she hard retconned 14 years of lore at a whim of her pen.

I wonder how far this joke can go. I bet in a year or two, the Second War will be referred to as a horde civil war.

[Jastall]

It is implied her followers did it since Sylvanas went to the Maw for a makeover. I agree with @Mehrunes when it comes to the flaws of this whole setup, but having watched it, I do like the introduction purely in terms of setting introduction and how unlike the mistake Tanaan does at the end the villain wins - you escape, sure, but all you did in freeing the named characters turns out pointless. It adds some menace to them, offset only a bit by how staggeringly generic Sylv and the Jailor's dialogue is.

It's even worse if her followers did it. A ragtag bunch of Dark Rangers and/or Maw soldiers that have never been to Azeroth, don't exactly seem sneaky, and will be butchered by us en masse managed to break into Thunder Bluff, Orgrimmar, Stormwind, and wherever Jaina hangs out and capture all of them within a short timeframe, when a full raid of powerful PCs barely managed to scratch that last one? Again, why the fuck was there a war to begin with if even Sylvanas's mooks can now grow super abducting powers whenever the plot feels like it? What next, they go full Carmen Sandiego and steal Ironforge in its entirety, or perhaps the very concept of hope?

[Soon-TM]

The best part is how there isn't a single mention to Tentacle Boi in these SSs. It's as if he had never existed... the only Old God to have been ever released

[Skytotem]

Valeera is one of the Uncrowned. Their whole deal is basically to manipulate the leadership of nations as they see fit.

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Strong disagree. Ever since Wrath of the Lich King I've wanted the theme of the Forsaken to be, "the citizens of Lordaeron died defending it, and in undeath they lay rightful claim to it."

1. The Uncrowned are a plot device that will never matter again after Legion, and never actually did anything prior to it.

2. Why? Why not just play humans? Why would you throw away the Forsaken's most defining trait, that they are UNDEAD and how that affects them... to make them the same people they were in life?

[Super Dickmann]

@Aucald @Jastall

Cutting the entire abduction bit is the best bet. In fact, cutting is really all you need to do - cut the Jailor's dialogue because it's unspeakably generic and downplays an otherwise menacing setting. You can keep Sylvanas gloating over Anduin if you really must. But the abduction thing makes little sense and you can accomplish the same goal + exposit over the time difference in our world and the Maw by having the ones we see in the questline like Baine, Thrall, Jaina etc. hop in first with a vanguard because they want to help stop the breach, then we get sidetracked by say, a dark ranger ambush or some shit, there's the whole argument with Calia and Tyrande and then everyone heads in, whereupon we find the status quo we see in the quests. Have someone ask "Wow, didn't you leave just an hour ago" and they can exposit about how in the Maw it's been a week. No loyalists with burlap sacks infiltrating Stormwind and capturing Jaina required.

@Lieutenant Commander

The Forsaken claiming that they wuz Lordaeronians an' sheeit was the whole point of Cataclysm, and was cast in the light you'd expect - their view of what that entailed had changed drastically, even though they were still proud of the state and its history, and the living Lordaeronians drastically disagreed. That was what made that conflict more worthwhile and what humanized the Forsaken. They had achieved a positive self-conception of themselves while keeping their past, but that didn't entail them becoming better people per se and got them into conflict. @Kathranis is ten years too late in this being a Forsaken plot element. It has been for ages and the rendition we have now is its most boring incarnation.

[Timester]

Are you even trying? look at the intro pictures of icecrown, the ones that we are talking about, Jaina isn't there she is kidnapped, and Gen is a worgen, not a human leader

And yet my point stands, Alliance race leadership has 3 and half human on their ranks, while the Horde is the most diverse.

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im not talking about power, but how, its shit and convenient writing

Being kidnapped by forces stronger than you it's shit and convenient? We don't have any context for it, lets judge after knowing the reason.

[Syegfryed]

And yet my point stands, Alliance race leadership has 3 and half human on their ranks, while the Horde is the most diverse.

how can you come here saying 3 elves, one who isn't even a leader, and a human is more diverse than human, worgen, gnome, dwarf, night elf and void elf?

you must be joking

Being kidnapped by forces stronger than you it's shit and convenient? We don't have any context for it, lets judge after knowing the reason.

yes it is, convenient and easy plot point, same as those shit cartoons

[Darth-Piekus]

It's even worse if her followers did it. A ragtag bunch of Dark Rangers and/or Maw soldiers that have never been to Azeroth, don't exactly seem sneaky, and will be butchered by us en masse managed to break into Thunder Bluff, Orgrimmar, Stormwind, and wherever Jaina hangs out and capture all of them within a short timeframe, when a full raid of powerful PCs barely managed to scratch that last one? Again, why the fuck was there a war to begin with if even Sylvanas's mooks can now grow super abducting powers whenever the plot feels like it? What next, they go full Carmen Sandiego and steal Ironforge in its entirety, or perhaps the very concept of hope?

This is inded baffling and I am sorry Aucald but I find it hard to accept this bad writing. Neither Sylvannas, nor Nathanos or their followers should have had instant creation on the moment abilities even if they are empowered by a powerful being. Every other villain built up their abilities and even if they were empowered these powers had limits. In this situation though the whole thing is beyond ridiculous. Creating impossible abilities out of Danuser's ass just for the rule of cool. Then suddenly the new villain has minions that can appear anywhere on the map, abduct someone, kill their guards and dissapear when the Old Gods, the Iron Horde, the Scourge and the Burning Legion couldn't do before. Armies that were the terror of the universe. Trying to justify this bad writing is even worse.

Why simply not kill every single leader of the Alliance and the Horde if they had minions that could abduct them anytime they wanted. Why not kill every leadership of every opposition and then crush their factions after the shock they will have so they can claim the Soul of Azeroth in the end. Or better yet why not going for the Soul of Azeroth through the Chamber of Heart. After all they are endless and they have the power of omnipotence.

[Ardenaso]

Well, Bolvar is also going to the Shadowlands, or else he could get his old position.

I mean the G word, and the OG (pun intended) based Warcraft guy

[Timester]

how can you come here saying 3 elves, one who isn't even a leader, and a human is more diverse than human, worgen, gnome, dwarf, night elf and void elf?

Forgetting the ones that were kidnapped? And it's funny on the Alliance side you separate the elven races, but for the Horde Council is "3 elves".

The fact is the Alliance has 3 full blown human leaders (Anduin, Jaina and Turalyon) and a human worgen leader. Yes, human worgen, because worgen is not a race, is a condition (there are also night elf worgen).

[Halfaheart]

I think its funny that people are crying about how Sylvanas kidnapped everybody but we have yet to see the prologue intro, the prepatch, or a single cutscene. The constant overreaction before actually receiving all of the details is unhealthy and ridiculous lmao

[Timester]

yes it is, convenient and easy plot point, same as those shit cartoons

Do tell us the spoilers of how it happened then.

[Tiwack]

Cool your jets and maybe we could have a discussion in place of this outrage-porn. We've not even seen prepatch or a prologue for the expansion yet.