I think wow needs to remove alternative progression or fundamentally change it.

[Krakan]

When I look at wow's past before and during wod I notice a odd attitude develop over time and slowly it seems to of taken hold of the community. The idea that grinding easy content should somehow be expected if you want to advance your character.

I was always left with the question though ... but why?

I recall how in the lionshare of wows history grinding really wasn't needed if your goal was to simply clear the hardest of raids or bring a new alt to one. You simply did relevant content then joined the main raid after a week or so.

Now? Now the game has gone down a extremely anticasual mindset and I can't really grasp why... if you joined wow now you would be looking at roughly two months of playing regularly just to kite out a new character for mythic or rated pvp. I don't really see how this is acceptable...


So what if going forward we simply made it that all " alternative power progression " just effected the open world and nothing else?

Players would be free to run what content they want without all the weird time gates. Those who enjoy weird time gates would have an edge in world pvp and farming materials.

Seems like a win win no?

[Gaidax]

Then you recall badly, because in the "lionshare of WoW's history", as a casual, you had to grind one way or another.

Just back then you would grind dungeons to death for pleb gear and currency. The only people who avoided grind back then were raiders who got all or at least vast majority of their gear from raids. But as casual? Yes, you were grinding and a ton at that - WAY more than you do now.

WoD, IMO, was the only one that really broke that grind and it paid dearly for it - it became an expansion where you literally had nothing to do outside raidlogging and afking in your lonely sand castle. They tried Apexis as some sort of thing to do, that wasn't really mandatory aside for very base amount or even useful in the long run really. It did not end well.

For me, as a raider, WoD was the best - because I could literally raidlog 100% and not care for anything, but for casuals it was a disaster. In the end people need their hamster wheel to keep interest - that's how it works.

[Saltysquidoon]

In the past to get into raiding (outside the first tier) you either had to get carried and/or (later) farm badge gear/reps. At least now with M+ you could theoretically grind out some raid ready gear.

[epLe]

For me, as a raider, WoD was the best - because I could literally raidlog 100% and not care for anything..

Enabling raidloggers was probably the worst thing ever for the community in raiding guilds.

[Twdft]

Grinding as such is innate to the genre. There needs to be something that makes people login and play over long periods of time.

Getting the extent of that grind just right is the golden ticket. WoW has such a vast population of different people that it is near impossible to get it right for everyone. Blizzard tried different things, some more some less successful. One big thing to make it a better experience for yourself is to get rid of the mindset that something is required or mandatory. It isn't if you are not at the bleeding cutting razorsharp edge of content like world first raids. But peer pressure is real, and if you feel pressured to do things you don't want you have to find some way of resisting it or find new peers as hard as that can be. You get everything actually required by just playing the game.

I know some in my guild burnt themselves out a little by grinding Rajani for the augment rune and running LfR before they had it to get some for raiding. Entirely unnecessary for heroic raiding where we wiped not to a player missing 60 strength but rather failing mechanics. Our raid demands flask, food, pots and prepots which is already expensive enough. Players who want to use runes are welcome to do so but most sold their runes and bought pots with it which made them not feel the gold cost for raiding sting as much. I'd say this was better for the raid than having people worrying about spending too much gold to raid and decide not to show up for progression once in a while.

[Nevcairiel]

Seems like a win win no?

No, it does not.

Being able to work on improving my character outside of raids adds so much more motivation for me to play. And such improvements need to be meaningful for relevant content, and that is Raids and M+.

The real problem is your mindset of "I need to be 100% caught up or I'm worthless", because thats just nonsense. If you are a casual, you are not required to be at 100% for the things you do. Don't take the ability for us to do something meaningful just because you don't want to.

[Amariw]

I agree. In pve the current grind is far too much, and was worse in 8.3 start (rng corruption, essences, ap, all requiring seperate farm other then simply doing tough content).

In pvp its way way too much. You have all the above grinds, which you can't get with just pvp, bgs practically useless, no catchup gear that isn't pve, and any decent gear that's from pvp takes rating (so practically useless if you're not already high rated). Its pointless and nonsensical gating which should be removed. Wod and mop model where easily farmed honor from bgs gave solid pvp only catchup gear, and weekly capped conquest from rated (but not rating limited) gave top pvp gear, was pretty much perfect. No reason not to return to this.

There were datamines of pvp power on some gear in alpha. Hopefully a sign blizz relearned forgotten lessons and just brings back pvp gear so people who love pve or pvp can focus on the content they enjoy. Here's hoping.

[A Chozo]

I recall how in the lionshare of wows history grinding really wasn't needed if your goal was to simply clear the hardest of raids or bring a new alt to one. You simply did relevant content then joined the main raid after a week or so.

You aren't recalling correctly.

You always had to grind or farm something as much as you have today. Be it Valor points or some other shit.

WoD was different because they gutted the game outside raiding - you couldn't even properly progress the reputations because they made the grind classic-like and devoid of relevant rewards.

To appeal to the playstyle of raidloggers and other forms of hardcore raiders, they would have to gut the game again. Stuff like Torghast would be devoid of any relevant power increment.

So no.

Also it's nice to see that almost all comments disagree with your points. Makes us hopeful that WoW's community can be more empathic than your usual raidlogger.

[crakerjack]

The only grinds I want are gear, reputations and professions. It's what I enjoyed/tolerated from vanilla-Wotlk. While I didn't mind artifact power back in Legion, azerite power felt incredibly meaningless.

[Krakan]

No, it does not.

Being able to work on improving my character outside of raids adds so much more motivation for me to play. And such improvements need to be meaningful for relevant content, and that is Raids and M+.

The real problem is your mindset of "I need to be 100% caught up or I'm worthless", because thats just nonsense. If you are a casual, you are not required to be at 100% for the things you do. Don't take the ability for us to do something meaningful just because you don't want to.

I mean you can have that with mythic plus alone but I can't see how things like essences or a million daily quests are compelling.

I would argue that each expansion shouldn't have more then 10 total daily quests rather then reusing leveling content.

- - - Updated - - -

You aren't recalling correctly.

You always had to grind or farm something as much as you have today. Be it Valor points or some other shit.

WoD was different because they gutted the game outside raiding - you couldn't even properly progress the reputations because they made the grind classic-like and devoid of relevant rewards.

To appeal to the playstyle of raidloggers and other forms of hardcore raiders, they would have to gut the game again. Stuff like Torghast would be devoid of any relevant power increment.

So no.

Also it's nice to see that almost all comments disagree with your points. Makes us hopeful that WoW's community can be more empathic than your usual raidlogger.

Have to grind... I'm not sure I agree with that... you could grind but you could simply jump from content to content if your skills paid the bills.

Torghast is already being gutted power wise because people complained how hardcore visions were...

Your looking at the wrong camp for your woes. The raid logger does not care what you do they just want to raid then vanish. The guy doing dailies for 40 hours a week or whatever non raiders do wants to dominate the guy playing for 3 hours.

[Kendros]

Grinding stuff was added because of massive outcry of casuals that dont have the skill set to set fooot on mythic or even heroic raiding demanding that they too should get gear.

[Saltysquidoon]

Have to grind... I'm not sure I agree with that... you could grind but you could simply jump from content to content if your skills paid the bills.

The literal fundamental progression path of WoW is gear. There has literally never been a point where if you started playing at the beginning of a new tier that you could be meaningfully contributing to prog raiding in a week, even if you were getting the previous tier carries and gear funnelled to you.

Being able to do the hardest content from a fresh character has always involved multiple week farms to be raid-ready.

[Krakan]

The literal fundamental progression path of WoW is gear. There has literally never been a point where if you started playing at the beginning of a new tier that you could be meaningfully contributing to prog raiding in a week, even if you were getting the previous tier carries and gear funnelled to you.

Being able to do the hardest content from a fresh character has always involved multiple week farms to be raid-ready.

I mean no... the progression path is difficultly with gear stemming from that.

Used to dungeon blues were enough to clear icc normal... this past you speak of never existed...

[Otimus]

I don't mind grinding, I just think gates, within gates, within gates, with an extra gate on top is annoying.
I'm also kind of middling on there being just SO MUCH RNG with RNG, with extra RNG on top of that.

Gates should make you eager to continue on, not annoyed at their presence and RNG should be much the same, excited to get a big reward, not oppressively uninteresting/annoying, as neither in and of themselves are really BAD things. Likewise, you can overdo grinding too, and it mostly stems from multi-layered gating that's passed through grinding.

The biggest problem is trying to make WoW like Diablo or something, while also puking up a gigantic pile of gates.

[enigma77]

Hell no.

Raid or die was tried in Warlords. And it was a disaster.

[Phookah]

I mean no... the progression path is difficultly with gear stemming from that.

Used to dungeon blues were enough to clear icc normal... this past you speak of never existed...

You mean you used dungeon blues to grind 5 mans for Valor and Justice to buy gear from the ToC vendor for basic 226-232 gear, and then cleared ICC.

[Saltysquidoon]

Used to dungeon blues were enough to clear icc normal... this past you speak of never existed...

You want to make the argument that you were running ICC10 in levelling gear and you weren't being carried that's your business (it's nonsense, but your business), live your best life.

My question then becomes why can't you do that now? Theoretically, you could gear in LFR, then normal, then heroic, then mythic. No one would because it would be boring, stupid and inefficient. But you could do it, so what's the problem?

[Krakan]

You mean you used dungeon blues to grind 5 mans for Valor and Justice to buy gear from the ToC vendor for basic 226-232 gear, and then cleared ICC.

No I mean a guy made a project to full clear icc 10 normal using only dungeon blues with a pug he made. He did it to prove people used gear an excuse for poor play...

- - - Updated - - -

You want to make the argument that you were running ICC10 in levelling gear and you weren't being carried that's your business (it's nonsense, but your business), live your best life.

My question then becomes why can't you do that now? Theoretically, you could gear in LFR, then normal, then heroic, then mythic. No one would because it would be boring, stupid and inefficient. But you could do it, so what's the problem?

http://greedygoblin.blogspot.com/201...-will.html?m=1

You cant though eventually essences would crush you. Likely corruptions to.

[msdos]

Change the word "grind" in this thread, actually, no, just remove the idea of "grind" altogether and change this topic to "replayability" and we are having a way different discussion.
You could literally grind in any game, but does that give it replay value? No, no it does not.

Does retail WoW have replay value? Maybe? Can I catch an alt up to my main right now? No. Can my main even catch up to other people who never took a break or stopped playing? No, not without a month of play time. This isn't even debatable, it's pure fact.

So no, if you ask me, retail WoW currently has very low replay value. But there's tons of stuff to grind if you love perpetual grinding.

Replaying a masterpiece and perpetual grinding aren't even in the same realm of each other lmao.... Sorry this is an elephant in the room that has remained for far too long.

[Tyrilion]

I mean no... the progression path is difficultly with gear stemming from that.

Used to dungeon blues were enough to clear icc normal... this past you speak of never existed...

Youre deluded, ICC was the peak of GEARSCORE ---- If you were in blues you would never be invited, what planet are you living on.

WOWs Gear Path has been a thing since classic, you had to grind fire gear for MC frost gear for Naxx...
TBC epics meant something, and you needed those epics to even have a chance of completing BT
Wotlk was probably a tad easier, epics were more freely available but the normal (WotLK LFR) still required you to have at least the 10 man mode gear from the prev raid.
id go on but the point is clear if you think what we have now is hardcore you need to have a real hard look around.
Literally welfare Epics EVERYWHERE.

If you want to Do Endgame with the big boys -- git gud