I think wow needs to remove alternative progression or fundamentally change it.

[rhorle]

So when you said "Things don't function differently now because they work in all of the content." you didnt actually mean that? What you meant is many abilities function differently in different content, and multiple abilities are only available in one type of content, including dozens of active abilities.

That was stated in the context of Open world PvE, Instanced PvE and rotations and the like (Azerite, Alternate advancement character power, etc). And not every single minute thing that doesn't work. PvE plays like PvE in all PvE content. There is a small list of quest items, zone abilites, etc that do not work for balance reasons. Which is why I said Things and not Everything.

[Krakan]

That was stated in the context of Open world PvE, Instanced PvE and rotations and the like (Azerite, Alternate advancement character power, etc). And not every single minute thing that doesn't work. PvE plays like PvE in all PvE content. There is a small list of quest items, zone abilites, etc that do not work for balance reasons. Which is why I said Things and not Everything.

Then why not add these systems to that list?

It seems like a win win.

[rhorle]

Then why not add these systems to that list? It seems like a win win.

Because of the major difference in gearing, abilities, and rotation between PvE instanced and PvE open world when there is no reason for them to require different things.

[arkanon]

So, 99% of the player base?

The entire premise of their comment is false - This "problem" of only a tiny percentage of players completing raids existed since Vanilla, so it was just the usual MMO-C chest beating fake elitism from someone who probably only does normal anyway.

Yes, it is obviously true that Blizzard tried to give non-raiders a meaningful progression system outside of raiding, and what you will find is the overwhelming majority of actual mythic raiders couldnt care less. The only exception was the short period that naz zone shit was brokenly OP, but mythic gear eventually took over.

[Krakan]

Because of the major difference in gearing, abilities, and rotation between PvE instanced and PvE open world when there is no reason for them to require different things.

Sure there is it stops time gates from getting in the way of casual players while preserving the system for other players to enjoy.

It's a win-win and abilites have been restricted from instances before

[TEHPALLYTANK]

Because of the major difference in gearing, abilities, and rotation between PvE instanced and PvE open world when there is no reason for them to require different things.

They already require different things, you can't get away with 15k dps@450 ilvl in a heroic raid, you can get away with that in open world PvE content.

Pretending that instanced PvE doesn't already demand more than open-world PvE is just silly.

[rhorle]

They already require different things, you can't get away with 15k dps@450 ilvl in a heroic raid, you can get away with that in open world PvE content. Pretending that instanced PvE doesn't already demand more than open-world PvE is just silly.

I never said that you didn't have to have higher gear, or dps, to do instanced content. Your abilities function the same however and the reason why you can get away with lower DPS in open world content is because it is designed around a different item level.

[rhorle]

Sure there is it stops time gates from getting in the way of casual players while preserving the system for other players to enjoy. It's a win-win and abilites have been restricted from instances before

Time gates don't really get in the way of casual players unless it is something like Pathfinder that takes years. A casual player won't require top "Azerite power" or whatever the AA is to do their content. Core abilities, the things the AA systems have modified, being restricted from instanced PvE is rare. Traits from Artifacts and Azerite modify the rotations and abilities. Some classes more then others.

[Krakan]

Time gates don't really get in the way of casual players unless it is something like Pathfinder that takes years. A casual player won't require top "Azerite power" or whatever the AA is to do their content. Core abilities, the things the AA systems have modified, being restricted from instanced PvE is rare. Traits from Artifacts and Azerite modify the rotations and abilities. Some classes more then others.

True but you can simply balance them around that for instance groups while allowing more flexibility for outlandish abilities in world.

[Bigbazz]

Old WoW wasn't without grinding, but for the most part you could carry a character to raid ready pretty quickly if you were a guild. A player slowly making it up the ranks though on the ladder didn't have an easy ride. Like in TBC, attunements were a massive factor in recruitment and no guild wanted to go back to attune people, Blizz helped this a lot when they removed attunements but usually when content was less relevant.

In WOTLK you had to do your rep grinds for helm and shoulder enchants, level professions for perks and from there your guild could realistically have you top performing pretty quickly, same in Cataclysm. In MOP that was true aside from the massive raid entry licence known as the Legendary Cloak, and in WOD that was even worse with the ring which got progressively stronger each week.

Sure in WOD you could catchup gear alts quickly though, my guild at end of expansion started a new alt run and took it very quickly to clearing HFC on mythic but that ring progression, it was a massive time gate.

[Krakan]

Time gates don't really get in the way of casual players unless it is something like Pathfinder that takes years. A casual player won't require top "Azerite power" or whatever the AA is to do their content. Core abilities, the things the AA systems have modified, being restricted from instanced PvE is rare. Traits from Artifacts and Azerite modify the rotations and abilities. Some classes more then others.

Casual players are people who have little time to play the game... they are not terrible players. These systems act as wrecking balls to casual high end players who don't have the time or desire to spam trivial content to play what they are interested in.

Just seperate these systems from instanced content there isn't any downsides beyond those we already accept with pvp talents.

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Old WoW wasn't without grinding, but for the most part you could carry a character to raid ready pretty quickly if you were a guild. A player slowly making it up the ranks though on the ladder didn't have an easy ride. Like in TBC, attunements were a massive factor in recruitment and no guild wanted to go back to attune people, Blizz helped this a lot when they removed attunements but usually when content was less relevant.

In WOTLK you had to do your rep grinds for helm and shoulder enchants, level professions for perks and from there your guild could realistically have you top performing pretty quickly, same in Cataclysm. In MOP that was true aside from the massive raid entry licence known as the Legendary Cloak, and in WOD that was even worse with the ring which got progressively stronger each week.

Sure in WOD you could catchup gear alts quickly though, my guild at end of expansion started a new alt run and took it very quickly to clearing HFC on mythic but that ring progression, it was a massive time gate.

I mean...no?

People seem to confuse optional grinding with mandatory grinding...

You can grind out your bis crafted set and it will help in older wow modes. It isnt needed by any stretch of the imagination...

Not having your best essences at rank 3? That is a whole other beast...

[rhorle]

Casual players are people who have little time to play the game... they are not terrible players. These systems act as wrecking balls to casual high end players who don't have the time or desire to spam trivial content to play what they are interested in. Just seperate these systems from instanced content there isn't any downsides beyond those we already accept with pvp talents.

You could easily knock out 3 emissaries in 20 mins. You didn't need to grind Azerite non stop in order to get the rings unlocked in a timely matter. You can still play the game for small amounts of time and be a high end player. You don't need to min/max in order to be a high end player. If you want to min/max you will need to put in the work.

[Depakote]

You could easily knock out 3 emissaries in 20 mins. You didn't need to grind Azerite non stop in order to get the rings unlocked in a timely matter. You can still play the game for small amounts of time and be a high end player. You don't need to min/max in order to be a high end player. If you want to min/max you will need to put in the work.

I have to ask, what reality do you live in?

[Krakan]

You could easily knock out 3 emissaries in 20 mins. You didn't need to grind Azerite non stop in order to get the rings unlocked in a timely matter. You can still play the game for small amounts of time and be a high end player. You don't need to min/max in order to be a high end player. If you want to min/max you will need to put in the work.

Alright but why?

What does doing emissaries bring to someone who enjoys challenging content?

What enjoyment value are they getting from it? The ability for their class to work as it should upon level up?

Let's be clear turning on your artifact at the start of an expansion or having rank three essences isn't min maxing it's the bare minimum required...

It's time to divorce these systems from instanced content and make them open world goodies.

[Bigbazz]

Casual players are people who have little time to play the game... they are not terrible players. These systems act as wrecking balls to casual high end players who don't have the time or desire to spam trivial content to play what they are interested in.

Just seperate these systems from instanced content there isn't any downsides beyond those we already accept with pvp talents.

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I mean...no?

People seem to confuse optional grinding with mandatory grinding...

You can grind out your bis crafted set and it will help in older wow modes. It isnt needed by any stretch of the imagination...

Not having your best essences at rank 3? That is a whole other beast...

Your reply has nothing to do with my post so what am I supposed to say to this? Did you even read what I said, you're discussing different topics.

[Krakan]

Your reply has nothing to do with my post so what am I supposed to say to this? Did you even read what I said, you're discussing different topics.

You claimed a level of grinding was always needed in wow I disagree... beyond running dungeons there was never a need to gather items from different systems.

[Bigbazz]

You claimed a level of grinding was always needed in wow I disagree... beyond running dungeons there was never a need to gather items from different systems.

Well what you said is not true, there is always level of grinding in WoW. If you spend 2 months in LFR farming your legendary cloak or you spend 2 months doing dailies farming essences is pretty irrelevant when the topic is "How long until I can be on a level playing field".

Edit : In any case, I explained every point I made. If you want to dispute those points go ahead but I'm struggling to see how you're going to really convincingly disclaim anything I've said.

[Krakan]

Well what you said is not true, there is always level of grinding in WoW. If you spend 2 months in LFR farming your legendary cloak or you spend 2 months doing dailies farming essences is pretty irrelevant when the topic is "How long until I can be on a level playing field".

Edit : In any case, I explained every point I made. If you want to dispute those points go ahead but I'm struggling to see how you're going to really convincingly disclaim anything I've said.

Right I am arguing those systems shouldn't exist.

I admit I find the cloak and rings less annoying as at the very least you got them from raiding but both are terrible systems.

Pointing out that the systems are progressively getting worse and less connected to end game content isn't really the silver bullet you believe it is.

Let the content itself determine the rewards not the frequency that you do it.

[rhorle]

I have to ask, what reality do you live in?

Really? Even before flying it was pretty easy to knock out emissaries. Every 3 days you can knock them out and a lot of the time you can get credit towards 2 factions at time. If you get lucky with zone assaults you can knock out two at a time very quickly.

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Alright but why? What does doing emissaries bring to someone who enjoys challenging content? What enjoyment value are they getting from it? The ability for their class to work as it should upon level up? Let's be clear turning on your artifact at the start of an expansion or having rank three essences isn't min maxing it's the bare minimum required... It's time to divorce these systems from instanced content and make them open world goodies.

So you are advocating for max gear, max levels, max consumables, and max everything just because a person is interested in challenging content? It is a game. This isn't about "turning on your artifact". Because casual players do that easily because Azerite and Artifact power is earned from most max level tasks. You are complaining that you can't have the max stuff which is entirely about min/max.

Which again brings us to you would have to maintain two sets of gear, two sets of hotbars, two sets of knowledge of rotations etc just for instanced PvE and Open World PvE. That is an extra layer of complexity that isn't needed. Just play the game. Do the things required to play at the level you choose to or don't.

[Krakan]

Really? Even before flying it was pretty easy to knock out emissaries. Every 3 days you can knock them out and a lot of the time you can get credit towards 2 factions at time. If you get lucky with zone assaults you can knock out two at a time very quickly.

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So you are advocating for max gear, max levels, max consumables, and max everything just because a person is interested in challenging content? It is a game. This isn't about "turning on your artifact". Because casual players do that easily because Azerite and Artifact power is earned from most max level tasks. You are complaining that you can't have the max stuff which is entirely about min/max.

Which again brings us to you would have to maintain two sets of gear, two sets of hotbars, two sets of knowledge of rotations etc just for instanced PvE and Open World PvE. That is an extra layer of complexity that isn't needed. Just play the game. Do the things required to play at the level you choose to or don't.

I mean we are still at the exact same point of the argument as the previous post.

But...why?

There isn't a need for two gear sets or two rotations from the idea of keeping grind systems regulated to the open world.

My suggestion has it so no one loses anything and balance can be tightened in instanced content.

It's a win-win. You stay in your lane and I stay in mine.