SPOILERS: On the status of the old gods during the events of Shadowlands

[loras]

Spoilers tag because i will likely mention /reference various spoilers liberally, even if the subject is not directly spoiler-y.

So yeah, on the subject of the old gods: How are they, currently?
After all "They do not die; they do not live. They are outside the cycle.".

1. C'thun: Dead underneath the rubble of Ahn'qiraj, though still more than juicy enough to mutate Cho'Gall severely. Currently next to a gargantuan sword that bled raw power all over the place.

2. Yogg-Saron: Dead, conveniently just after the Lich King constructed a giant edifice made out of his blood right under the place where the Shadowlands are closest to reality. Also the place that literally has its sky ripped open in the upcoming expansion.

3. N'zoth: Lazered to death in his own disintegrating dimension, conveniently making the knife-that-can-contain-void-things unfindable for the moment.

4. Y'shaarj: Dead dead, by the hand of Aman'thul, titan of time. However Argus' fight shows that his power is far from absolute or failsafe, so we might get a "terror from beyond time" sorta return so that we can face him in the flesh.

5?. Atath ("Xal" basically means "weapon" in Shathyar): The thing that-was-in-the-knife that is m.i.a. after delivering us so that N'zoth may peer through our eyes.



Plenty to go on about, but let's focus on their potential appearances in the Shadowlands, with Yogg-Saron being the most natural.
Now Yogg-Saron, as you may remember, styled himself the god of death, appeared as pretty much only maws (curious innit?) to us, broke his chains on his own and then mysteriously got offed by a bunch of random dudes on a side-quest, whereas our other faced unchained old god was much more, shall we say, flamboyant and chatty.

So i'd say it's pretty clear that Yoggy's still "alive", if it can ever be called that, and that he's been messing with the Shadowlands for a long time now.
He seems a very likely candidate to be one of those who was part of the Void Lords' "open armed" embrace of the minions of death, as per the message relayed to sire Denathrius in one of the more recent bits of lore. In the same message it is acknowledged that as the void lords observe and obsess over their thousand truths they may in fact be seeing through the deceptions of death, and thus may be the actual beneficiaries of it all.

Either way a clear cooperative effort has existed, and one has to wonder what becomes of it in the upcoming expansion, as their past cooperation would explain the long held view that shadows and necromancy are inherently intertwined, and considering Yogg-Saron's propensity to cast curious plagues in his encounter he may have been the source of more than a few powers the scourge employed, and given that by the time of WotLK there had been animosity between the scourge and Yogg-Saron that may explain the disappearance of the obsidian destroyers from the scourge's arsenal, as well as the curiously reduced incidences of the formerly extremely dangerous and virulent plague, despite a great many different varieties of it existing now (thanks to, among others, Sylvanas).

Of note too is that Sylvanas died on a spike of Saronite right under the weakened sky of Icecrown, and that she's been a lot more genocidal since then (Gilneas comes to mind, among others).

So we have then, at the end of WotLK:
- One dead death god who does not die, whose blood has formed a curious edifice right under the Shadowlands
- One dead jailer of the damned, who has curiously been keeping the scourge passive and entered in to conflict with Yogg-Saron
- One dead leader of the Forsaken, her purpose fulfilled, only to curiously re-emerge with a much less inhibited genocidal bloodlust

Frankly it seems to me that Sylvanas has been posessed by Yogg-Saron, much like Atath posessed that other elf in the quest it sends us on. It seems that the pact between the Jailer and the outside force is not necessarily between Sylvanas and him, but rather between him and Yogg-Saron.
It might also explain the odd behaviour Sylvanas exhibits from time to time, as old gods are known to twist emotions and thoughts in what direction suits them. It would also explain how dead souls empower her, as old gods have been shown to be fond of consuming them, and it might explain her apparant view of herself as the jailer's equal - that he is something she cooperates with, rather than serves.

It would also make Arthas more of a victim of circumstances, and one has to wonder how Bolvar fits into all this, but even Yogg-Saron alone can easily obscure much due to the nature of his power.

That's my take on it right now anyway, subject to change as all speculation, and i'm curious about what you guys think about this one

[Varodoc]

Sylvanas always had a genocidal bloodlust. This is made clear already in Classic:

According to the Deathguard, another one of those foolish Dwarven Mountaineers has just been captured. The Deathguard likes to use the cellar of the Gallows End Tavern as a holding cell until prisoners can be "properly" dealt with.

Why don't you go see how the Captured Mountaineer enjoys this special drink I made for him? It contains a subtle hint of what The Dark Lady has planned for the rest of Azeroth.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/A_New_Plague_(4)

As well Sylvanas tasked Varimathras and High Executor Darthalia with the conquest and razing of all Alliance settlements in Hillsbrad, both human and dwarven. The Forsaken forces in Hillsbrad sought to, and I quote, "quell the human infestation" and "wipe the human scum for eternity".

Though really I could have mentioned WC3 too, in which Sylvanas made it clear that the Forsaken would slaughter ANYONE who stand in their way, with no exception and no mercy.

[loras]

Fair points, but i would counter that all of these consist of brutality in securing her own lands, rather than actively invading to slaughter beyond, say, a gigantic wall. Or on the other side of the ocean.

After all that's what she says: We'll slaughter anyone WHO STANDS IN OUR WAY.

Her way did not naturally extend into Gilneas, which by nature was extremely isolationist.

As to the plague: she has always been evil, but personally i've always seen it as a MAD-type assurance at the time, given that just about everyone was hostile to all undead in the very recent history surrounding that quest. Additionally it should be noted that she had already witnessed one such plague's effects, and must have known it wasn't enough to reach anything resembling depopulation on its own.

[bagina]

Sylvanas always had a genocidal bloodlust. This is made clear already in Classic:



https://wow.gamepedia.com/A_New_Plague_(4)

Such a broad assumption from one line of text of a rando npc. It could mean a shitton of things. It could also be a Forsaken over-selling Sylvanas which they tend to do. If it didn't came from Sylvanas mouth well... Don't know why people place so much importance on world quests when they so often contradict each other

Though really I could have mentioned WC3 too, in which Sylvanas made it clear that the Forsaken would slaughter ANYONE who stand in their way, with no exception and no mercy.

Anyone "standing in their way", important distinction. If someone attacks you you tend to defend yourself.

I don't see how trying to kill off humans in Hillsbrad should be considered genoicidal, humans were trying to do the same to Forsaken. They were at war with each other, killing each other is whay you do during war.

[Varodoc]

Fair points, but i would counter that all of these consist of brutality in securing her own lands, rather than actively invading to slaughter beyond, say, a gigantic wall. Or on the other side of the ocean.

After all that's what she says: We'll slaughter anyone WHO STANDS IN OUR WAY.

Her way did not naturally extend into Gilneas, which by nature was extremely isolationist.

As to the plague: she has always been evil, but personally i've always seen it as a MAD-type assurance at the time, given that just about everyone was hostile to all undead in the very recent history surrounding that quest. Additionally it should be noted that she had already witnessed one such plague's effects, and must have known it wasn't enough to reach anything resembling depopulation on its own.

The intent and will for genocide was always there, regardless of the motivation. This is not something Yogg-Saron or any other entity forced into her, this is something she always had deep down. The knowledge that only hell awaits her simply brought that genocidal aspect in full display. This is basically Sylvanas mentality: "I am destined to hell no matter what I do, none of my good actions will have any consequence, so I might as well kill as many people as I can to empower myself."

Everything she did after her second death was of her own will. You can say the Jailer manipulated her (not confirmed), but she still chose to follow him and go through wtih the plan.

Such a broad assumption from one line of text of a rando npc. It could mean a shitton of things. It could also be a Forsaken over-selling Sylvanas which they tend to do. If it didn't came from Sylvanas mouth well... Don't know why people place so much importance on world quests when they so often contradict each other



Anyone "standing in their way", important distinction. If someone attacks you you tend to defend yourself.

I don't see how trying to kill off humans in Hillsbrad should be considered genoicidal, humans were trying to do the same to Forsaken. They were at war with each other, killing each other is whay you do during war.

That doesnt change the fact that Forsaken forces in Hillsbrad acting under Varimathras and Darthalia sought to wipe out the human population of Hillsbrad in its entirety, and Sylvanas did not give a shit. Also, nothing in the story indicates that the Apothecary was messing around or overhyping Sylvanas. The story written by Blizzard is clear.

Also, I do not remember the Hillsbrad humans acting genocidal to Forsaken. Can you provide some quest text from Classic please?

[loras]

The intent and will for genocide was always there, regardless of the motivation. This is not something Yogg-Saron or any other entity forced into her, this is something she always had deep down. The knowledge that only hell awaits her simply brought that genocidal aspect in full display. This is basically Sylvanas mentality: "I am destined to hell no matter what I do, none of my good actions will have any consequence, so I might as well kill as many people as I can to empower myself."

Everything she did after her second death was of her own will. You can say the Jailer manipulated her (not confirmed), but she still chose to follow him and go through wtih the plan.

To "emerge with a genocidal bloodlust" is quite comparable to going from potential genocidal maniac to actual genocidal maniac, so i think our disagreement is mostly a matter of semantics; she did change her behaviour.

[Varodoc]

To "emerge with a genocidal bloodlust" is quite comparable to going from potential genocidal maniac to actual genocidal maniac, so i think our disagreement is mostly a matter of semantics; she did change her behaviour.

You are saying that Sylvanas is literally being possessed by Yogg-Saron, this is not at all what happened and there is no indication of this. Instead I proved that she was completely fine with eradicating the human and dwarven population of Hillsbrad back in Classic.

[loras]

You are saying that Sylvanas is literally being possessed by Yogg-Saron, this is not at all what happened and there is no indication of this. Instead I proved that she was completely fine with eradicating the human and dwarven population of Hillsbrad back in Classic.

Posession is not necessarily insubtle, especially if done by a nigh ageless and incredibly powerful/knowledgable creature that has a propensity for deception and insanity.

As for what has happened to Sylvanas: That is still up in the air for the moment, which is why we are having this conversation in the first place.

And that she was willing to brutally annihilate all in her way was not in doubt nor doubted by me, i did however point out that it is not very relevant to her sudden change towards visiting such a fate on people significantly out of her way (which is not so different from your own admission that her genocidal urges did come to the forefront after her death on Icecrown)

[Houle]

ahhh yes, another day, another "sylvanas is secretly good/mind controlled"-thread

[Traveler Voltin]

ahhh yes, another day, another "sylvanas is secretly good/mind controlled"-thread

i would greatly influenced and tricked.

[Shaqthefat]

Fair points, but i would counter that all of these consist of brutality in securing her own lands, rather than actively invading to slaughter beyond, say, a gigantic wall. Or on the other side of the ocean.

After all that's what she says: We'll slaughter anyone WHO STANDS IN OUR WAY.

Her way did not naturally extend into Gilneas, which by nature was extremely isolationist.

As to the plague: she has always been evil, but personally i've always seen it as a MAD-type assurance at the time, given that just about everyone was hostile to all undead in the very recent history surrounding that quest. Additionally it should be noted that she had already witnessed one such plague's effects, and must have known it wasn't enough to reach anything resembling depopulation on its own.

"Our way" is referring to the forsaken. Youar point further falls apart because Garrosh ordered her to take Gilneas. And Xal'atath isn't an old god.

[loras]

"Our way" is referring to the forsaken. Youar point further falls apart because Garrosh ordered her to take Gilneas. And Xal'atath isn't an old god.

"Our way" is a bit ambiguous i'll give you, but even if it were to refer to the Forsaken it would not make sense at all to attack the isolationist Gilneas or Teldrassil on the other side of the world, so the point stands unaltered.

And she was ordered to do so specifically without employing the blight and to secure a proper harbor, both objectives failed due to her surfaced genocidal urges.
This implies rather clearly that Garrosh cannot be used as an excuse for her genocidal behaviour in Gilneas.

And i didn't conclusively claim that Xal'Atath is an old gold, hence the question mark as you may have noticed, rather there have been more than a few implications that there are/were five old gods. And Xal'Atath, whatever it is, is very clearly in league with the old gods while being in a position to bargain with them, rather than serve them, i know of few who are alike.

ahhh yes, another day, another "sylvanas is secretly good/mind controlled"-thread

I do not care for Sylvanas, and i do not see how this exonerates her. After all this posession would have been going on so long that the Sylvanas the fans love would have been the posessed Sylvanas, not the original one.

[Ardenaso]

I don't see how trying to kill off humans in Hillsbrad should be considered genoicidal, humans were trying to do the same to Forsaken. They were at war with each other, killing each other is whay you do during war.

just so you know, it didn't stop there; the Forsaken literally hunted down fleeing Hillsbrad farmers in Classic and then the fleeing Hillsbrad+Southshore refugees in Fenris Keep in Cataclysm

they were trying to remove all Alliance Lordaeronians

[Shaqthefat]

"Our way" is a bit ambiguous i'll give you, but even if it were to refer to the Forsaken it would not make sense at all to attack the isolationist Gilneas or Teldrassil on the other side of the world, so the point stands unaltered.

And she was ordered to do so specifically without employing the blight and to secure a proper harbor, both objectives failed due to her surfaced genocidal urges.
This implies rather clearly that Garrosh cannot be used as an excuse for her genocidal behaviour in Gilneas.

And i didn't conclusively claim that Xal'Atath is an old gold, hence the question mark as you may have noticed, rather there have been more than a few implications that there are/were five old gods. And Xal'Atath, whatever it is, is very clearly in league with the old gods while being in a position to bargain with them, rather than serve them, i know of few who are alike.

You're cutting off the full quote. The full quote is "We are the Forsaken, we will slaughter anyone who stands in our way."

Sylvanas using the blight, despite orders not too, isn't a sign of old god corruption. She was there to wipe out Gilneas, she didn't care how she did it, she just wanted it done and so she used the blight. She is just an asshole not a servant of the old gods.

[Varodoc]

Let's change discussion because I'm growing tired of people who refuse to understand Sylvanas was always evil.

Is there any indication at all that Sylvanas is beind mind-controlled/brainwashed/possessed?

On the contrary, the fact that we read her thoughts in some novels, and those thoughts definitely dont seem like what an Old God would think, proves otherwise.

[loras]

You're cutting off the full quote. The full quote is "We are the Forsaken, we will slaughter anyone who stands in our way."

Sylvanas using the blight, despite orders not too, isn't a sign of old god corruption. She was there to wipe out Gilneas, she didn't care how she did it, she just wanted it done and so she used the blight. She is just an asshole not a servant of the old gods.

I limited it to the relevant parts, as it does not change things.

Not saying it´s a sign of old god corruption, just pointing it out as a clear change that may certainly be indicative of more. The corruption part is speculation and i have not pretended that it is otherwise.

Let's change discussion because I'm growing tired of people who refuse to understand Sylvanas was always evil.

Is there any indication at all that Sylvanas is beind mind-controlled/brainwashed/possessed?

On the contrary, the fact that we read her thoughts in some novels, and those thoughts definitely dont seem like what an Old God would think, proves otherwise.

I am in no way argueing that she isn't evil, i play alliance for crying out loud; she's always been evil for me.

And to answer your question: Dying on a saronite spike and reviving (thanks to the aid of val'kyr to be sure, but Helya has certainly been under the sway of the old gods), strange visions, altered behaviour, strange new powers developing absurdly quickly when the time is right? To say there is something awry would be an understatement at the very least.

Regarding her thoughts: It has been noted many times that they conflict with her actions and further development, which in my eyes is a very strong sign that something is not right within herself, as opposed to something that would clarify that she is absolutely not posessed.
Additionally the old gods are so insidious precisely because their whispers become indistinguishable from one's own thoughts with time.

[Syegfryed]

ahhh yes, another day, another "sylvanas is secretly good/mind controlled"-thread

also, another thread of old gods don't die, out of cycle bullshit, when they fully said countless times they are dead

[Kallisto]

Sylvanas always had a genocidal bloodlust. This is made clear already in Classic:



https://wow.gamepedia.com/A_New_Plague_(4)

As well Sylvanas tasked Varimathras and High Executor Darthalia with the conquest and razing of all Alliance settlements in Hillsbrad, both human and dwarven. The Forsaken forces in Hillsbrad sought to, and I quote, "quell the human infestation" and "wipe the human scum for eternity".

Though really I could have mentioned WC3 too, in which Sylvanas made it clear that the Forsaken would slaughter ANYONE who stand in their way, with no exception and no mercy.

Yes let's bring up Hillsbrad again. All major human settlements in Vanilla in Lordaeron region were attacked for one reason.

Not because they were the living but because they all attacked the forsaken without remorse for the simple crime of being undead. They instigated the war of extermination and getting their comeuppance. They didn't want to be targetted. How about don't instigate hostilities.

[loras]

also, another thread of old gods don't die, out of cycle bullshit, when they fully said countless times they are dead

A bit odd to hold on to that so tightly given how far lesser creatures have been shown time and time again to be revivable without too much hassle, and that their whole schtick is being nigh impossible to kill or surprise.
And it's not like they've never reneged on their promises or clashed with earlier statements of their own, if they were ever worth much to begin with given that lore is defined in their products and not their statements outside of it.

[Foolicious]

also, another thread of old gods don't die, out of cycle bullshit, when they fully said countless times they are dead

Conveniently now with shadowlands this statement opens up the possible return of old gods even more than the previous out of cycle statement xD