The Brexit aftermath thread

[Azhran]

Why it's important to oppose bullshit being peddled isn't really an attempt to change the mind of the one doing it, but to oppose spreading of misinformation for the sake of other readers of the thread.

Just letting it fester doesn't lead anywhere good.

As if anyone actually believes such an obvious shitposter.

[Gibblewink]

Ignoring bullshit and trolls can be argued to have had a significant impact on the brexit vote: Consistently scapegoating the EU combined with BoJo's list of veracity-challenged stories from Bruxelles led the voters of the UK down the path of idiocy and self-harm. Arguing the points and countering lies means we only have to deal with the genuine idiots and the malicious.

[Demolitia]

As if anyone actually believes such an obvious shitposter.

The daily mail alone has a readership of 2.2 million people. You wouldn't believe how many people swallow this sort of nonsense.

[Omega10]

He is. But unfortunately, since the mods here don't do anything about it, it is good to oppose him on pure principle. Or would you like this to become another cesspool of the likes of him where every sane person has left because the only thing left is trolling and insane drivel?

If you are talking about Dribbles, I would recommend responding to what he writes as much as possible. He has made me a LOT more pro-EU than ever before, and has made me REALLY appreciate what EU has accomplished. The US press is mostly anti-EU, always emphasizing the stuff EU does wrong and never giving it credit for its strengths. Dribbles regurgitates these talking points (or more likely, the US press reports a watered down version of what Dribbles writes), and then you and others completely demolish most of what he brings up.

Dribbles give EU members a chance to set the record straight, and to explain what EU is all about. And EU members have done a great job of doing just that. Dribbles is quite useful.

[Xarkan]

No concessions, just the offer of a gentle wind down of a foreign power fishing operation in our waters, rather than the UK letting the EU fishing industry crash over a cliff edge in a few weeks time. Ultimately without a deal the EU can't have their cake and eat it, plus as Michael Gove says:-

Gove fires 'personal' threat at EU on fishing as he shuts down Brexit deal sell-out fears:-My dad ran a fishing business, that business went to the wall in the 1980s as a result of the EU and their Common Fisheries Policy. So it's personal for me.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...r-conservatism

Nope, no concession to the bullies, best way to treat them too.

Remind me, since i think it is mentioned in this thread

How much do UK fishermen land from the rest of the EU's waters and how much do EU fishermen land from UK waters?

[Crispin]

Remind me, since i think it is mentioned in this thread

How much do UK fishermen land from the rest of the EU's waters and how much do EU fishermen land from UK waters?

Add: How much of the UK fishing exports, goes to the EU and depend on access to the EU market?

[dribbles]

If you are talking about Dribbles, I would recommend responding to what he writes as much as possible. He has made me a LOT more pro-EU than ever before, and has made me REALLY appreciate what EU has accomplished. The US press is mostly anti-EU, always emphasizing the stuff EU does wrong and never giving it credit for its strengths. Dribbles regurgitates these talking points (or more likely, the US press reports a watered down version of what Dribbles writes), and then you and others completely demolish most of what he brings up.

Dribbles give EU members a chance to set the record straight, and to explain what EU is all about. And EU members have done a great job of doing just that. Dribbles is quite useful.

If you are from the US and and are a LOT more pro-EU I hope you understand it's a one way street. All they want you for is your expensive military facilities and equipment to keep them safe so they don't have to pay for their own. It's a massive competitive advantage to them, have you thought about paying for their healthcare needs too?

If they were your bestie mates, after 60 years of trying, don't you think they would have done a trade deal by now with the US? Should be easy right? You don't find out who your true friends are until you stop giving them handouts.

The only reason the US are anti-brexit is because the in general pro-US British people have left the EU and an unfortunate side effect of that is that the EU inevitably becomes more anti-US.

Add: How much of the UK fishing exports, goes to the EU and depend on access to the EU market?

The EU are threatening to starve and blockade the UK no? OK then we will need all our fishes, from Britains favourite newspaper senior cabinet minister George Eustice says:-

If the EU want a Cod War, we'll give them a Cod War!

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-trawlers.html

I don't think, despite the EU's best efforts, we will go hungry.

[tehealadin]

I just have him on ignore and swing right past. I speak to sensible people instead to preserve my sanity.

Same. There is no prospect of a good faith discussion of ideas and debate. I avoid saying the obvious- what he is here for, in case I get infracted.

[Muzjhath]

If you are from the US and and are a LOT more pro-EU I hope you understand it's a one way street. All they want you for is your expensive military facilities and equipment to keep them safe so they don't have to pay for their own. It's a massive competitive advantage to them, have you thought about paying for their healthcare needs too?

A lot of people in the EU wants the EU to have a more united military, the biggest hindrance for that was, guess who. The UK. The EU can actually start to play on the same level as China and the US on military matters. Where the individual nations can't unless they work together with development programs.
So this bullshit about using the US isn't fully true, even if it has been nice to have their umberella to use. Time for us to grow up.

If they were your bestie mates, after 60 years of trying, don't you think they would have done a trade deal by now with the US? Should be easy right? You don't find out who your true friends are until you stop giving them handouts.

Again, the reason there isn't a deal is because the US wants to bully the EU as it does everyone else. As in, the US wants to let their corporations practically dictate laws to suit them, and have full right to bring a EU state or company to court in the US over matters that is local to a place in the EU. The EU is a flat out no on that, which is what keeps getting in the way of a deal.
The EU has labour rights, and consumer rights, and other things of that nature that are far stronger than in the US, things that any US trade deal on their terms would stomp into the ground.

[Slant]

As if anyone actually believes such an obvious shitposter.

You say that, and yet we have Trump in the White House and Brexit is reality and not a political satire...

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

If they were your bestie mates, after 60 years of trying, don't you think they would have done a trade deal by now with the US? Should be easy right? You don't find out who your true friends are until you stop giving them handouts.

The USA wanted the EU to give up its member states' sovereignty. The EU said "no". Not hard to understand.

[Slant]

If you are from the US and and are a LOT more pro-EU I hope you understand it's a one way street. All they want you for is your expensive military facilities and equipment to keep them safe so they don't have to pay for their own. It's a massive competitive advantage to them, have you thought about paying for their healthcare needs too?

If they were your bestie mates, after 60 years of trying, don't you think they would have done a trade deal by now with the US? Should be easy right? You don't find out who your true friends are until you stop giving them handouts.

The only reason the US are anti-brexit is because the in general pro-US British people have left the EU and an unfortunate side effect of that is that the EU inevitably becomes more anti-US.



The EU are threatening to starve and blockade the UK no? OK then we will need all our fishes, from Britains favourite newspaper senior cabinet minister George Eustice says:-

If the EU want a Cod War, we'll give them a Cod War!

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-trawlers.html

I don't think, despite the EU's best efforts, we will go hungry.

Oh, my dear sweet child... this time you fucked up.

Do you not know that the US considers itself the midwife of the EU? They always supported the idea of a pan-European institution for oh so many reasons. Stability in Europe means more trade and more money for them. It also means they don't have to come over here and rescue the planet from Germany anymore. And it means they have an equal partner in all things international. A strong global partner is what they want.

Oh man, this is embarassing to you, I'm sure... You got it completely backwards, my man. You seem to listen to Trump too much. Every (!) US President was a big supporter of the EU and future Presidents are going to support the EU even more. This is bipartisan, by the way. Did you not listen to the Republican senator telling the UK in no uncertain terms that they can forget about a trade deal with the US if GFA is endangered? They're not buying into your propaganda piece that the EU is to blame for that. They know exactly what is going on. Did you not listen to him saying multiple times, explicitely that this is very much bipartisan and shared among all of Congress? Are you not paying attention to what's going on?

The US and the EU have deep and healthy relations. Despite Trump.

How could you get this so wrong? Oh, because you made this shit up in your head and just looked for any idiotic article that remotely mentions something in line with your crazy ideas.

See, the problem is, you seem to think a trade deal is necessary to be friends. That is not the case. The US wants something the EU isn't willing to give, that's why we walked away. And that's okay, the US is fine with it. The EU is not anti-US. Not in a million years. The EU is anti-Trump. And everyone in the US understands that. Why don't you?

You have no true friends at the moment. You are isolating yourself. Nobody speaks about a Cod War, that's all you, mate. Only you and your crazy Brexit friends are dividing the world up in friends and enemies, talking about wars, blockades and all that funky stuff that is fermenting in your head. You are embarassing yourself and everyone in Britain with that idiotic drivel.

And lastly, the reason the US is anti-Brexit is because of the GFA that is about to be shattered by you forcing the EU to put up borders. Pro-US British people leaving the US? Wtf? That doesn't make the EU more or less pro or anti US. Do you REALLY think that there are enough British people to change the overall stance of the EU with it's 500 million citizens? Do you REALLY overestimate the importance of Britain that much? That's pathetic, I pity you and everyone who has to suffer your existance directly...

[dribbles]

Oh, my dear sweet child... this time you fucked up.

Do you not know that the US considers itself the midwife of the EU? They always supported the idea of a pan-European institution for oh so many reasons. Stability in Europe means more trade and more money for them. It also means they don't have to come over here and rescue the planet from Germany anymore. And it means they have an equal partner in all things international. A strong global partner is what they want.

Oh man, this is embarassing to you, I'm sure... You got it completely backwards, my man. You seem to listen to Trump too much. Every (!) US President was a big supporter of the EU and future Presidents are going to support the EU even more. This is bipartisan, by the way. Did you not listen to the Republican senator telling the UK in no uncertain terms that they can forget about a trade deal with the US if GFA is endangered? They're not buying into your propaganda piece that the EU is to blame for that. They know exactly what is going on. Did you not listen to him saying multiple times, explicitely that this is very much bipartisan and shared among all of Congress? Are you not paying attention to what's going on?

The US and the EU have deep and healthy relations. Despite Trump.

How could you get this so wrong? Oh, because you made this shit up in your head and just looked for any idiotic article that remotely mentions something in line with your crazy ideas.

See, the problem is, you seem to think a trade deal is necessary to be friends. That is not the case. The US wants something the EU isn't willing to give, that's why we walked away. And that's okay, the US is fine with it. The EU is not anti-US. Not in a million years. The EU is anti-Trump. And everyone in the US understands that. Why don't you?

You have no true friends at the moment. You are isolating yourself. Nobody speaks about a Cod War, that's all you, mate. Only you and your crazy Brexit friends are dividing the world up in friends and enemies, talking about wars, blockades and all that funky stuff that is fermenting in your head. You are embarassing yourself and everyone in Britain with that idiotic drivel.

And lastly, the reason the US is anti-Brexit is because of the GFA that is about to be shattered by you forcing the EU to put up borders. Pro-US British people leaving the US? Wtf? That doesn't make the EU more or less pro or anti US. Do you REALLY think that there are enough British people to change the overall stance of the EU with it's 500 million citizens? Do you REALLY overestimate the importance of Britain that much? That's pathetic, I pity you and everyone who has to suffer your existance directly...

Most people require the services of a midwife for a few hours/days at most, not 50-60 years like the EU. Comparing the US as the EU's midwife is ridiculous, time to get off the US bosom slanty and stop sucking on that teet. Don't you feel any sense of shame at the EU still being so attached and needy to it after all this time? It would be like me still suckling on my Grandma...

The US president might be outwardly supportive of the EU, but he must have a mind to the people he represents. Those very same people whose tax dollars are paying for and subsidising very expensive EU defences when they should now be doing it, no US bosom required, for themselves.

The EU has a pretend deep and healthy relationship with the US only for as long as they are in receipt of US paid for benefits. It is very one sided, almost the same sort of abusive relationship the UK had with the EU prior to brexit when we were members. Everything is rosy as long as the EU are in receipt of foreign aid from generous nation benefactors, take that away and the facade and false friendship crumbles. Oh and don't worry about a UK/US trade deal, even though the EU have had a 60 year head start and still failed, I bet we achieve it first.

Of course Britain leaving the EU cabal makes the EU overall more Ameri-sceptic, look, compared to the UK at these EU member states US approval ratings. This is why many in the US oppose brexit, the UK was their one and only reliable English speaking pal dining at the EU table, nothing to do with the GFA that the EU will break in January, not the UK. These figures are barely unchanged from the Obama years, nothing to do with Trump, you cannot be more wrong.

[Gorsameth]

Its almost as if the US pulled the EU into a war it didn't really want (afghanistan) and while that was still going on into yet another war the EU really didn't want (Iraq) that would lead to a less favourable view of the US. And that's not even accounting for christian fundamentalists, lack of public education or social security.
And then there are the global recessions that originated from the US, ect ect.

[Omega10]

If you are from the US and and are a LOT more pro-EU I hope you understand it's a one way street. All they want you for is your expensive military facilities and equipment to keep them safe so they don't have to pay for their own. It's a massive competitive advantage to them, have you thought about paying for their healthcare needs too?

If they were your bestie mates, after 60 years of trying, don't you think they would have done a trade deal by now with the US? Should be easy right? You don't find out who your true friends are until you stop giving them handouts.

The only reason the US are anti-brexit is because the in general pro-US British people have left the EU and an unfortunate side effect of that is that the EU inevitably becomes more anti-US.

Up until recently, the UK was our "special friend", and our most valued ally. Less than 20 years ago we called French Fries "Freedom Fries", and called the French "Cheese Eating Surrender Monkeys". Up until recently, we viewed the rest of continental Europe as less than us.

Moving closer to EU is a relatively new thing happening in the US. This is changing steadily and actually rather quickly.

The US is declining rapidly. There will come a time, probably in a decade, when it will not be possible to hide the fact that EU is above the US, and that this will be the new order of things for a while. China will be there to be a counter balance - and visa versa. As long as there are two super powers I think the world will be ok. The UK will be one entity we deal with, and so will EU. Our relationship with EU will be much more important than our deals with the UK. Orders of magnitude more important.

This is World Politics and Power Games 101.

[Huehuecoyotl]

Oh and don't worry about a UK/US trade deal, even though the EU have had a 60 year head start and still failed, I bet we achieve it first.

On the assumption that Boris doesn't break the GFA, that is a no-brainer. Of course the UK will get a trade deal with the US first, because the US side of the negotiations will consist of "drop your trousers, bend over the table, brace yourself". While the UK side at best will consist of "can we have a small amount of lube first?". It's easy to make a deal on that basis; the reason the EU/US deal hasn't happened yet is because the US thinks they can still do that with the EU, and they can't.

For proof, look at the details that have started to come out of the Japan deal. We got royally screwed on that one, and the disparity in power was nowhere near as pronounced. If you think we're getting a good deal with the US you're......well, you're you, so of course you think we will. But we really won't.

[Blayze]

On the assumption that Boris doesn't break the GFA, that is a no-brainer. Of course the UK will get a trade deal with the US first, because the US side of the negotiations will consist of "drop your trousers, bend over the table, brace yourself". While the UK side at best will consist of "can we have a small amount of lube first?". It's easy to make a deal on that basis; the reason the EU/US deal hasn't happened yet is because the US thinks they can still do that with the EU, and they can't.

For proof, look at the details that have started to come out of the Japan deal. We got royally screwed on that one, and the disparity in power was nowhere near as pronounced. If you think we're getting a good deal with the US you're......well, you're you, so of course you think we will. But we really won't.

Exactly. I can see precisely what's going to happen:

1) The UK, which hasn't produced enough food to feed its population since at least World War 2, desperately wants the US 'deal' to go ahead.

2) The US, being the far stronger partner in the negotiations, is incentivised to string the UK along until it capitulates on everything.

3) Country of Origin labelling is abolished* as "anti-American" and "anti-free trade," because the US is so proud of its 'food' it doesn't want you to know where it came from or what's in it. Other food standards are likewise crippled, cutting the UK off from the EU even more.

* But only in the UK; the US will not reciprocate.

4) The US food industry floods the UK market en masse, seeking to undercut local suppliers and force them out of business.

5) Any remaining local suppliers are bought out, bribed, terrorised or 'disappeared.' The Tory party looks the other way, in exchange for fat stacks of cash.

6) With the UK's food industry crippled, US suppliers raise their prices, safe in the knowledge that the UK has no option but to pay.

Result: Utter economic domination.

[zealo]

As if anyone actually believes such an obvious shitposter.

You'd hopefully think so, but a lot of events over the past couple of years has me convinced there are plenty of people that do buy into the Dribbles brand of bullshit out there.

[Kallisto]

As if anyone actually believes such an obvious shitposter.

That's the problem. All you have to do is talk to your average brexiteer and you'll see Dribbles is just like them. They are delusional, some even more so than he is. They need to be argued down, even belittled if necessary so that their cancerous views don't spread.

If dribbles is a troll then as a troll he's still parroting every single delusional brexiteer argument over and over. He's not making stuff up out of his own brain but the brains of the mass.

[Omega10]

That's the problem. All you have to do is talk to your average brexiteer and you'll see Dribbles is just like them. They are delusional, some even more so than he is. They need to be argued down, even belittled if necessary so that their cancerous views don't spread.

If dribbles is a troll then as a troll he's still parroting every single delusional brexiteer argument over and over. He's not making stuff up out of his own brain but the brains of the mass.

That's why he is so useful here. He parrots his arguments. And then his arguments get the full treatment - what is wrong about them, what is ok, and what is actually accurate.

This is at least close to a real political debate. It's much better than what passes for political debate in the US. I've learned a lot from the responses to his posts.

And some of the things he posts are also quite illuminating. His graph about "favorable views of the US" and "favorable views of Trump" by country is ... interesting???

I figured Trump's numbers would be low (I did not expect them to be THAT low), but the numbers for the US were also quite low, even for the UK and Japan.

13 Country Median:

34% of the people have a favorable view of the US (ouch).
16% of the people have a favorable view of Trump (double or maybe even triple ouch).