Shadowlands Pathfinder not to include rep

[StillMcfuu]

Not all of those dates had major patches.5.1 and 6.1 were not major patches. In legion Blizzard split the patches in half to time gate. Blizzard has probably decided already that only even patches are major patches and we'll be waiting 9 to 10 months. They cannot be trusted until it is actually released.

- - - Updated - - -



No one has said that 9.1 will be a major patch. Have you forgotten MoP and WoD? Did you forget blizzard deciding to split major patches up in legion for gating purposes?

What does it matter? Flying doesn't need a major patch to be unlocked.

[munkeyinorbit]

What does it matter? Flying doesn't need a major patch to be unlocked.

Except that it looks like it does. Read the OP again.

[huth]

You do know that Renown grinding is exactly the same as rep grinding though, right?

You do realise that's completely wrong, right?

First, Renown can only be "ground" in any real sense if you're behind. Otherwise, you're limited to two levels per week that are trivial to obtain.
Second, unlike the vast majority of reputations, including most of those involved in Pathfinder in the past, Renown is a primary gameplay goal.

Sigh...No one is complaining about Renown. This is about PATHFINDER. And in all the practical ways, in Pathfinder, Renown fills the same roll as reputation.

No, it does not. Mostly because of how it is different from reputation. Anybody who won't have the Renown requirement by the time Pathfinder allows flying isn't likely to be actively playing, and thus wouldn't have any use for flying anyway.

As for the driving analogy, I could just as easily claim that you're in an echo chamber. Clearly not everyone agrees on the flying topic. Which is why I keep my arguments in favor of both flying and non-flying people getting a better situation. If you think this is a one-sided crusade by me being the only person who dislikes Pathfinder, then you haven't done your research.

Then i'd suggest you go and actually count your co-crusaders, or what's left of them. And stop pretending to be even-handed, you're not.

[JessicaJones]

I never got BFA flying, because I outgeared the mechagon quests in the first week so I never went there to do any dailies there was no point at all. I'm still neutral across all characters.

Gating flying isn't a big deal other than to the group members that have to summon you because you can't get somewhere fast enough lol.

[Lucetia]

You do realise that's completely wrong, right?

It isn't completely wrong and if you can't see it as such then one can't change your mind.

First, Renown can only be "ground" in any real sense if you're behind. Otherwise, you're limited to two levels per week that are trivial to obtain.

Next, that isn't correct either.

Weeks 1, 4, 6 have caps of 4
Weeks 2, 3, 5, 11 have caps of 3
Weeks 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15 have caps of 2
Week 16 has a cap of 1

Renown has caps on what you can earn each week so most people probably won't be capping each week. When you are behind then you get a lot more options added to the pool on how to grind. Renown is only earned by doing chapter work for your covenant and 2 different weekly quests. Once you are grinding you get emissaries/dungeons/pvp/raids added to the mix.

Second, unlike the vast majority of reputations, including most of those involved in Pathfinder in the past, Renown is a primary gameplay goal.

Depends on your playstyle. Most of the player base will likely ignore Renown and just get what they get passively (like reputation). The people who will try to min/max will be pushing it just like they did with reps for the gear early on where applicable. Then you also had people with profession who grinded the reps.

Renown is mostly cosmetic (just like reputation) with the exception being soulbind unlocks and pvp gear rank upgrades.

No, it does not. Mostly because of how it is different from reputation.

You want to believe it is different so you'll think it is different. It is very much like reputation is practically every way with the exception of it has an ongoing power upgrade attached to it instead of one you can outgrow (gear you can buy with rep).

Anybody who won't have the Renown requirement by the time Pathfinder allows flying isn't likely to be actively playing, and thus wouldn't have any use for flying anyway.

Guess what the exact same thing applies to reputation. If you played the game you would have it practically exalted without much effort. Doing story lines alone would get you to about revered or just short of it. Emissaries required very little work and most of the reputations could be "farmed" by afk playing the table.

Then i'd suggest you go and actually count your co-crusaders, or what's left of them. And stop pretending to be even-handed, you're not.

So because you disagree with someone means you know what point of view they are trying to display?

Gating flying isn't a big deal other than to the group members that have to summon you because you can't get somewhere fast enough lol.

That's not what flying did. Having people summon you just meant you were lazy in general, regardless. Most of the dungeons have a FP pretty close to them so there isn't an argument for "I need flying to get there." That's just trying to deflect the laziness onto something else.

Thinking more about it the only two dungeons I don't think that have a FP close by is ToS and UR.

[Eurhetemec]

Ah...the rallying cry of a person with no arguments left to make: Dismissing all points by calling it a rant.

Welp...I guess you told me. Clearly I have been defeated by such detailed and resoundingly powerful points.

How can I argue with someone who isn't making an rational points, and just engaging in lazy ad hominems (which push the boundaries of the rules of this site, btw) at perceived "enemies"?

It's ludicrous. If you had a rational argument, I'd engage with it, as I did previously. But you literally don't have one in that post. You're not even claiming you do! You're just really angry that people are happy the game has been improved for them, because the devs haven't 100% capitulated to what you want.

Your posts here are absolutely emblematic of the axiom that, however much Blizzard give WoW players, some players will act as if they've been given insulted or even shit on by the improvements, because they're not exactly and precisely what they wanted.

- - - Updated - - -

Guess what the exact same thing applies to reputation. If you played the game you would have it practically exalted without much effort. Doing story lines alone would get you to about revered or just short of it. Emissaries required very little work and most of the reputations could be "farmed" by afk playing the table.

This is where you're showing how you don't understand the way a lot of people play the game, including some people who are experienced and good at the game, but have limited leisure time. This is where reputation and Renown differ significantly.

With BfA, you had to get 7 reputations to Revered to get Pathfinder parts 1 & 2.

Your claim that, just by doing the zones, you get to just before Revered is arguable at best. With no buffs, doing the main quests in the zones didn't get you that close. With the War Campaign, doing the main quests for that did get you pretty close, possibly even past it so it would be true there. With Magni's lot, you could do every quest available up to an including 8.2 and you'd be barely honoured if that (IIRC). And you say the Emissaries are low effort and the whole thing could be "AFK'd", except that shows you don't understand at all. Most people don't engage heavily with the mission table, and the rep rewards from it are pretty tiny and completely unreliable in BfA. Many people log in irregularly, and don't do the Emissaries strategically, let alone systematically, so don't get all that rep.

On top of that there's the issue of alts, and the issue that as you only needed to do two zones to hit max level (and maybe a tiny bit of a third) in 8.X, many people had their rep spread around - again especially more casual players. And this is just for Pathfinder part 1. Yeah, anyone who stuck to a single character, and was systematic, got PF part 1 pretty reasonably through normal play. So it was doable, but if you were a bit of an altoholic, it was painful and potentially meant re-doing entire zones of quests, and logging on regularly to check the Emissaries and do them if relevant - a lot of people don't log on or even necessarily think about WoW every day, even if they play quite a lot some days.

And we've haven't even started on Pathfinder part 2. That was a much bigger block. Getting to Revered with either faction (and you needed both) takes focused effort, sustained over a fair bit of time. Logging in day after day and doing a bunch of WQs and praying for Emissaries, and doing it in content rewards that are not necessarily very desirable to you. Anyone coming back in 8.3, if they skipped some or all of 8.2, was looking a hell of a lot of work to get Pathfinder part 2. The praying for Emissaries bit sucked particularly hard, because to get 1500 rep from normal WQs was a lot of boredom when it was generally 75 rep/shot (i.e. 20 WQs to get 1500 rep).

Now, I dunno if you're going to just dismiss me, a guy who has played WoW since NA open beta, and who used to be a progression raider (up into Cataclysm) as a "worthless casual with worthless casual friends", but what we're looking at in SL is dramatically different from this perspective. The big changes are:

1) There's only one "number" you need to increase - Renown.

This is huge. I think the amount you play WoW (which isn't excessive, to be clear, but it must pretty regular/constant) is blinding you to this. For you, it was just like breathing/playing naturally to get 7 different reps to Revered, because you play regularly and strategically. For people who don't, it wasn't.

2) Renown has a catch-up mechanism.

This is also huge. Reputations had no catch-up mechanism. If you didn't grind them steadily, especially if you hopped around on alts and took long breaks and so on (I'm 42, with a job, and a wife - luckily she also plays and plays well but has an even more demanding job - and so on - so breaks are inevitable). Whereas Renown, to judge from the information we have, has a pretty strong catch-up mechanism. Whatever the number we need for flying, even if it requires pretty regular play to have that the day 9.1 hits, it's likely that the catch up mechanism will ensure you rapidly get to that number a few weeks or a couple of months later if you play even a bit.

3) Renown can be ground reliably and without praying for Emissaries.

Not as important as the other issues, perhaps, but still big. Because there's only one thing. Like a lot of stuff in SL, this takes the perceived RNG out of it, and reduces the factor where you need to think about WoW when not even playing (i.e. to keep table going or to see if Emissaries you need are up).

Even if they beef up the achievements needed, that's stuff you can approach much more easily as a more casual player, because it's a fixed thing. You're not relying on RNG (generally speaking - I doubt they'll include any achievement that does). So if you have to take a few months off, then come back, you're not going to get stymied because you keep getting the wrong Emissaries, and can't face logging on to do every single WQ, no matter how worthless, for a faction, every day, for weeks.

So it's a pretty big change for people like me. I get that you want more, but this is a big deal, and that you can't see it doesn't mean it isn't.

TLDR - The changes are huge for people who don't play constantly or systematically.

[SirCowdog]

Then i'd suggest you go and actually count your co-crusaders, or what's left of them. And stop pretending to be even-handed, you're not.

I have consistently asked for, suggested, and discussed several different ways for everyone to get what they what in the form of a real compromise. And every time one of the Blizzard cultists comes out of the woodwork and says some form of "Pathfinder is fine" or "don't be lazy" or "stop crying".

And I never claimed to be "even-handed". I claimed to be arguing for a better solution than pathfinder where both sides get what they want. I'm FAR from even-handed, as illustrated by my complete and total lack of regret or hesitation in calling pathfinder exactly what it is: Trash. And the only reason so many people still think it's good is because they're getting what they want out of the "compromise", and are utterly unable to muster the mental fortitude or agility to see anything other than their own narrow point of view.

But to get back on the topic of Renown. Yes, it absolutely fills the exact same role as reputations. The fact that renown is itself a slightly better system than reputation doesn't change the role that it's filling in the Pathfinder system. On it's own, separate from pathfinder, I have no problems with Renown being a way to unlock various things. It's the context of Pathfinder, and the very specific role Renown serves in the unlock of flight, that's unmitigated ass.

Flying under pathfinder should not be something to grind for. It's not a reward. It's a relief. An escape from the design that makes people go: "oh thank fuck I don't have to deal with speedbumps and hurdles literally every 2 seconds anymore". It is literally Blizzard holding something players want hostage in order to coerce them into doing things in the game they wouldn't otherwise do.

Now...MAYBE renown alleviates that somewhat. I have serious doubts based on Blizzard's past behavior in regard to flight, however. Implying that some form of "Renown fixes everything and makes pathfinder fine" is some of the most delusional apologistic crap I've ever seen in this game.

If this post comes across as just a tad bit acidic, it's because I've so very VERY sick of people making excuses for this trash-fire of a system. I have no filter or tolerance for it anymore.

EDIT: I want to thank @Lucetia for being about a bazillion times more diplomatic about it than I am.

[JessicaJones]

That's not what flying did. Having people summon you just meant you were lazy in general, regardless. Most of the dungeons have a FP pretty close to them so there isn't an argument for "I need flying to get there." That's just trying to deflect the laziness onto something else.

Thinking more about it the only two dungeons I don't think that have a FP close by is ToS and UR.

My point is Im not going to do dailies to get flying if the dailies aren't giving me any reward. The only person the lack of flying really effects are my group members because I'm stuck on the ground. Also it's not complete laziness. There are bugs with the campaign - I xfer my dk from ally to horde and there's nothing in Zulduzar and I have to do the whole campaign from Uldir again with no option to skip.

Blizz keep ramming useless quests down our throats over and over again, when all I want to do is M+, arena and raid. I don't need to do content that honourbuddy should be doing for me - MULTIPLE times.

[Lucetia]

How can I argue with someone who isn't making an rational points

Heh, I've made plenty of points that you just dismissed as basically "It's not rep".

You're just really angry that people are happy the game has been improved for them, because the devs haven't 100% capitulated to what you want.

As you did with the other poster, clearly you aren't reading the posts. Never once did I say I was angry or upset at the devs. All I said is people are falling for the "No reputation grinds this time we promise! Oh here's renown that is really a rep grind". There was one interview even where the dev was slipping up and calling it reputation. There's really no point in trying to explain the rest of the post or anything as you've really have your mind up that Renown is in no way close to Reputation and you have a fixated idea of what my opinion is despite never once saying anything close.

[ClassicPeon]

This entire thread mostly talks about people who will naturally get behind on reps because they arent playing the game that much/that way right?

Its safe to assume that the people where this counts(including probably myself) will have access to the dungeon bonuses and such.

With that in mind it does differ from just rep grinding in several ways.

1. Catchup
2. Different approaches
3. Its going to take less time each day to get renown then it would to do world quests in zones for rep.

There is the fact that this comes in the first major patch of Shadowlands instead of the last.

You wouldnt have exalted as a casual player in the first patch of bfa if you wherent going for it. Lets be honest.

[Eurhetemec]

Heh, I've made plenty of points that you just dismissed as basically "It's not rep".

As you did with the other poster, clearly you aren't reading the posts. Never once did I say I was angry or upset at the devs. All I said is people are falling for the "No reputation grinds this time we promise! Oh here's renown that is really a rep grind". There was one interview even where the dev was slipping up and calling it reputation. There's really no point in trying to explain the rest of the post or anything as you've really have your mind up that Renown is in no way close to Reputation and you have a fixated idea of what my opinion is despite never once saying anything close.

I feel like this is a pretty massively hypocritical post, Lucretia. You claim I haven't read your post, and then all your responses are to a post I didn't make to you, but to another poster - I didn't suggest you were angry, did I? Why say "Never once I did I say I was angry or upset at the devs." - Yeah I don't think you are - Cowdog is - and he's mad at us too, and calling us all "stupid" for disagreeing with him, which is a pretty bad look.

My points 1-3 at the bottom show very clearly that, for a lot of players, this is massively different from Reputation. You and Cowdog have made no effort to refute this or disagree.

Let me make it even more simple for you - even we go on your ground, and say, "Renown is a reputation", then my points 1-3 remain - 1) There's only one reputation, 2) It's a got a strong catch-up mechanism, 3) You can grind if (if necessary) reliably, and without praying for Emissaries, or doing soul-destroying numbers of WQs.

That's a huge difference.

[SirCowdog]

You're just really angry that people are happy the game has been improved for them, because the devs haven't 100% capitulated to what you want.

And why wouldn't I be angry about that? When "the people that are happy the game has been improved for them" are getting what they want at the DIRECT cost of sacrificing part of what made the game great in the first place, and what a damn hell of a lot of people enjoyed for many years before the abomination of WoD's "experiment" to remove flying backfired.

And let me go ahead and repeat the fact, AGAIN, that I've been arguing for an improved system that gives BOTH flying and non-flying players what they want. But literally every time, someone like yourself comes along and starts arguing from a single point of view(usually ground-only, although to be fair there have been some pro-flight people who are just as bad).

Do you know how that comes across to me? When I say some form of "Hey, maybe Blizzard should be making a better system where everyone can be happy with the result" and the reply is "No, only grounded players are worth making happy". Do you not see that's how you wrote your argument? "Why can't you be happy the game is improved for people who are shitting on the playstyle you like?"

Come off it, man. Why should I give those types of arguments any credence or respect? I've tried that in the past. I tried being respectful and honest and fair. And every time some Blizzard cultist comes out from under a rock and says "stop crying" or "You just want EZ mode lazy skip everything". Which is completely false. (EDIT: No I didn't mean you specifically. You're just caught in the crossfire, so to speak)

Your posts here are absolutely emblematic of the axiom that, however much Blizzard give WoW players, some players will act as if they've been given insulted or even shit on by the improvements, because they're not exactly and precisely what they wanted.

Gosh...maybe it's because blizzard has completely ignored player desires and "overwhelming feedback" for years. I mean, at this point even some of the hardcore Blizzard fans are getting sick of pathfinder. And this isn't about getting "precisely what I wanted". It's about getting ANYTHING better than Pathfinder.

And btw, to call anything involving pathfinder an "improvement" is a sad joke filled with borderline Pavlovian connotations. Like I said before: Polishing a turd doesn't mean it isn't still a turd.

This is where you're showing how you don't understand the way a lot of people play the game,

ROFL! I love how when someone more diplomatic than me presents cogent and well-written points, your first instinct is to tell them they don't understand how people play.

Whatever credibility you might have had just evaporated. Good job. That right there is EXACTLY why I post the way I do in response to these things.

- - - Updated - - -

he's mad at us too, and calling us all "stupid" for disagreeing with him, which is a pretty bad look.

1) I am not "mad" at anyone. You have not seen me post mad yet. What you're seeing now is disdain, disappointment, and acidic sarcasm.
2) I didn't say people were stupid for disagreeing with me. I said they're stupid for thinking Pathfinder is good.
3) I don't care if it looks bad. Blizzard and their tribe probably need some bad to check the echo-chamber now and then. And I've tried the "polite and respectful" approach for a long time. I get EXACTLY the same garbage from Pathfinder supporters regardless of the tone of my posts. So why shouldn't I get some catharsis out of calling it like I see it? If I get too far out of hand, the mods will tag me with an infraction, and I'll cool off for a bit. I'm ok with that, and would rather speak my mind than curb it out of some unappreciated effort at civility towards people who have no intention of returning the favor.

[ClassicPeon]

ROFL! I love how when someone more diplomatic than me presents cogent and well-written points, your first instinct is to tell them they don't understand how people play.

I'm not gonna get into this discussion - i just saw this and had to comment.

Cant tell you how much i disagree with you on the bolded point in this case. And that says a lot ^^

[crusadernero]

Good. Does it also mean that if I complete Kyrian covenant campaign on my Paladin I get flying on every character or just those with Kyrian covenant?

Great improvement getting flying in the first major patch too. I can live with that. It sucked having to wait until the last patch to get flying, for no other reason than .... ?

[ClassicPeon]

Good. Does it also mean that if I complete Kyrian covenant campaign on my Paladin I get flying on every character or just those with Kyrian covenant?

Its been this way since its introduction at least. So i'd wager a yes on that one

[SirCowdog]

I'm not gonna get into this discussion - i just saw this and had to comment.

Cant tell you how much i disagree with you on the bolded point in this case. And that says a lot ^^

So you're saying you don't think Lucetia is pulling her punches more than me? Or that she's not making reasonable points?

[ClassicPeon]

So you're saying you don't think Lucetia is pulling her punches more than me? Or that she's not making reasonable points?

I'm saying i dont agree that she is more diplomatic then you And i am saying - that says a lot.

[Eurhetemec]

And why wouldn't I be angry about that? When "the people that are happy the game has been improved for them" are getting what they want at the DIRECT cost of sacrificing part of what made the game great in the first place, and what a damn hell of a lot of people enjoyed for many years before the abomination of WoD's "experiment" to remove flying backfired.

And let me go ahead and repeat the fact, AGAIN, that I've been arguing for an improved system that gives BOTH flying and non-flying players what they want. But literally every time, someone like yourself comes along and starts arguing from a single point of view(usually ground-only, although to be fair there have been some pro-flight people who are just as bad).

Do you know how that comes across to me? When I say some form of "Hey, maybe Blizzard should be making a better system where everyone can be happy with the result" and the reply is "No, only grounded players are worth making happy". Do you not see that's how you wrote your argument? "Why can't you be happy the game is improved for people who are shitting on the playstyle you like?"

Come off it, man. Why should I give those types of arguments any credence or respect? I've tried that in the past. I tried being respectful and honest and fair. And every time some Blizzard cultist comes out from under a rock and says "stop crying" or "You just want EZ mode lazy skip everything". Which is completely false. (EDIT: No I didn't mean you specifically. You're just caught in the crossfire, so to speak)

Caught in the crossfire is right

You're not responding to any of my points, my actual arguments. I've both numbered them and simplified them now! You're mad about something I don't really care about either way.

As for "why shouldn't you be"? Well, I don't it's worth being mad about. Being mad won't help you, it won't cause the game to change, and will hurt you, because it's causing you to say stuff like everyone who disagrees with you is stupid. I'll be honest Cowdog, outside flying, and sometimes even about flying, I've enjoyed your posts here quite a lot, but when you're doing stuff like calling me "stupid" for have a different opinion, for seeing a different side to something, I guess I feel like "Shouldn't I just put this guy on ignore?". I'm sure many have. I don't want to, because like I said, I've enjoyed a lot of your posters, but this anger isn't helping you.

Gosh...maybe it's because blizzard has completely ignored player desires and "overwhelming feedback" for years. I mean, at this point even some of the hardcore Blizzard fans are getting sick of pathfinder. And this isn't about getting "precisely what I wanted". It's about getting ANYTHING better than Pathfinder.

And btw, to call anything involving pathfinder an "improvement" is a sad joke filled with borderline Pavlovian connotations. Like I said before: Polishing a turd doesn't mean it isn't still a turd.

I guess my point is, this is better than the Legion/BfA Pathfinder system... even just flying in 9.1 or 9.1.5 as seems likely would be a huge move. And it's in the right direction given your concerns. Indeed, at this rate, I'd be unsurprised if they made 10.0 a "flying from day 1" expansion (perhaps with some "no fly" areas with an actual lore reason for it). As for pavlovian, well, maybe, but it's significantly less oriented to that than the previous approach due to the single number and catch-up mechanism.

ROFL! I love how when someone more diplomatic than me presents cogent and well-written points, your first instinct is to tell them they don't understand how people play.

Neither you nor Lucretia has responded to any of my points. It's nice that she's not calling everyone "stupid", unlike you, but if she doesn't respond to my points, just like you, then that "diplomacy" (which, so far, has consisted solely of "not openly abusing people" and ignoring actual arguments) is rather irrelevant.

[crusadernero]

Its been this way since its introduction at least. So i'd wager a yes on that one

Yeah, its probably a yes. That said - this is tied to covenant campaign. lets hope they include all your chars, no matter the covenant they have and how far they are in the campaign there.

[Relapses]

Yeah, its probably a yes. That said - this is tied to covenant campaign. lets hope they include all your chars, no matter the covenant they have and how far they are in the campaign there.

Flying has always been account-wide. (In fact, in the past you've been able to get Part 1 & 2 on separate characters.) I don't see any reason why they wouldn't continue this tradition in SL.