blizzard force raiders into pvp... again...

[Kharadin]

I feel this thread mostly exists because people don't know what 'force' means.

[ClassicPeon]

Hes not wrong. You can easily clear heroic and normal without pvp gear. Casual raiding- You hit your head on a nail long enough, eventually it'll go in.

Thats the same with mythic raiding my man.
Kinda missing the point

Also did you just give up on your other argument? :P

[Ealyssa]

This kind of comment always baffled me a little.
Its like people think gear doesnt matter if you only raid hc or normal. Like there somehow isnt a progression lesser skilled players need to go through to clear the content their skill level is matched for.

like gear wouldnt help them progress further?

But the coutent you are talking about IS GIVING YOU GEAR...

That's what you can't grasp apparently. The normal path of progression is filled with gear that will help said progression.
You want to outgear your content, that's your problem.

Why the best player in the world "need" to do everything ? Because the content they do won't provide meaningfull equipement by itself, because they are going too fast. Gearing obviously isn't designed to be done in 1-2 weekly lockout. So to maximise their ilvl, Limit, echo, method and all the others need every single piece of gear they can grab to get a competitive advantage (or more accurately just to not be behind the other guilds doing the exact same).

You will be way more geared than limit when you reach Denathrius MM, no mather if you do PVP or not. That's litteraly a non issue for the non top world players.

[ClassicPeon]

But the coutent you are talking about IS GIVING YOU GEAR...

That's what you can't grasp apparently. The normal path of progression is filled with gear that will help said progression.
You want to outgear your content, that's your problem.

Why the best player in the world "need" to do everything ? Because the content they do won't provide meaningfull equipement by itself, because they are going too fast. Gearing obviously isn't designed to be done in 1-2 weekly lockout. So to maximise their ilvl, Limit, echo, method and all the others need every single piece of gear they can grab to get a competitive advantage (or more accurately just to not be behind the other guilds doing the exact same).

You will be way more geared than limit when you reach Denathrius MM, no mather if you do PVP or not. That's litteraly a non issue for the non top world players.

Yes obviously there is a difference between the top 10 guilds in the world and the rest in terms of that. But the only one talking about those guilds are you.
For the rest of us, gearing up asap is still a valid concern as it helps us progress faster.

You are making a logical fallacy and being rude about it

[parasight]

Some people have free will. Others are under extreme oppression and Blizzard sends people to your house to force you to do content you dont want to do. Blizzard also forced me to use Stellar Flare. When I tried to refuse they changed their mind and forced me to only pug raids. As feral.

[Marrilaife]

1400 whether you hate PvP or not is actually free, and it makes little sense that it awards end of raid normal Castle Nathria levels for the amount of 'skill' you need to put into the game. While 1800 isn't super obtainable to the majority of the player base, it's actually a reachable goal, and it currently rewarding end of raid heroic Castle Nathria iLvL seems way off when comparing skill levels currently. Ask yourself, does deterministic gear for every single slot in the game at 220 iLvL for 1800 rating, link up with killing Stone Generals and Sire Denathrius on heroic (which only offer several slots at best, and at best you'll see 3 items drop from each boss on a weekly lockout?)

That's the problem, you kill a boss in a raid and you have only 15% chance to receive loot (down from 25% in bfa), meanwhile pvp gives guaranteed loot. It's not only about ilvl, it's about how much you can farm it and how reliable it is to get loot. The same debacle as with m+ - if m+ is endlessly farmable, and pvp is weekly capped but always gives an item, raiding is the worst of the 3 because it's neither.

[Warning]

That's the problem, you kill a boss in a raid and you have only 15% chance to receive loot (down from 25% in bfa), meanwhile pvp gives guaranteed loot. It's not only about ilvl, it's about how much you can farm it and how reliable it is to get loot. The same debacle as with m+ - if m+ is endlessly farmable, and pvp is weekly capped but always gives an item, raiding is the worst of the 3 because it's neither.

Yeah except there's multiple bosses, meaning on average you get more items than PVP grants you, since you no longer get random loot from PVP either just the 550 conquest points, which isn't enough for major items like trinkets, chests, helms legs weapons so it takes multiple weeks to save for an item. Raiding and M+ also grants you far more conduits than PVP does atm, which is another nice benefit.

Shadowlands item distribution is hands down the best this game has ever had and people are complaining because people doing different content are also being rewarded now. And yes 1800 is roughly equivalent to clearing Heroic Nathria or maybe a bit harder depending on your class. Roughly 2% of the 260.000 people on the EU ladder are above 2100 and getting Mythic Itemlevel gear. That seems fine to me.

[dacoolist]

m+15 - 210ivl
spammable cancer pvp - 216
spammable cancer lowrank pvp - 213

nice balance... if you like to do m+ - then go to cancer pvp to get gear for m+... why blizzard lost every single person who develop wow but this animal who force pvp to pve'rs is still alive...
Infracted

If you want to be mad at blizz, you should be more mad about the insane amount of 226 BOE's you can get with your great grandmothers credit card. Vers isn't going to help you get sire down in mythic... If you're unhappy about the gearing I get you, but the best most people on here can do is get 213 weapons right now.. most people can't even obtain 1800 to even get 220, and on top of that it's not like you can just BUY A WHOLE SET of pvp gear anywhere it's only purchasable from the vendor its not just dropping 2 pieces of loot from each end chest.

If you're top end and already clearing 15's then this isn't an issue, if you're clearing heroic this also isn't an issue.. if you're in mythic raids getting tons of 226 loot already this is completely pointless.

It's like telling people they are mad because they can't obtain anything because they dont have the skill to get to that level

[Rinaul]

I raid and I haven't touched pvp. Not since MoP legendary cloak. When will I be forced to do it?

- - - Updated - - -

when in game about equiping your character there is 2 ways:
1. 216ivl every 5mins = 12x216ivl/hour
2. 210ivl every 40min per 5ppl = 0.3x210ilvl/hour
it's called exactly FORCED

But why? Why do you feel forced to do this? Are you in one of the WF race guilds?

- - - Updated - - -

I love this argument. "Nobody is forcing you into it"

Which shows a fundamental misunderstanding of how mythic raiding works. Or how competing for a mythic raid spot works. Of course "nobody is forcing us to raid mythic" Nobody is forcing us to play wow, or forcing us to continue breathing. It's simply the requisite step to do the next thing. It's a shit argument, because it's a non argument. Stop using it as if you have some modicum of intelligence.

PvP is dead jim, accept it. Should have taken it out of the game a long time ago, rather than continuing to inconvenience the real game. See, that's a shit argument too. but it's what we're doing now apparently.

Mythic like pvp is niche. Not everyone is doing it. Very small portion of the community. Unless you're trying to push WF I don't see why this is a requirement. You either get recruited for your class /person you are or you joined the wrong guild

[svetlio]

m+15 - 210ivl
spammable cancer pvp - 216
spammable cancer lowrank pvp - 213

nice balance... if you like to do m+ - then go to cancer pvp to get gear for m+... why blizzard lost every single person who develop wow but this animal who force pvp to pve'rs is still alive...
Infracted

Good to know trolls like you exist
PS there is no bigger cancer in this game then m+
4 easy no skill 15+ and you can choose from 2 mityc livels items lolz that

[intenz]

Except PvP is the niche portion of this game. Not PvE. It's a vastly bigger inconvenience to PvE'ers. Thankfully after 2-3 weeks we'll never have to touch the shithole that is pvP again

PvP was the dominant point of the game for most of its peak years. Are you seriously claiming that M+ is more popular than arena? Do you have any clue how ridiculous that statement is? M+ is fringe content with MDI viewer numbers only a tiny fraction of what arena had before twitch even existed. FAR more people do arena than M+, even now.

Just get that straight for the pve carebears on here. When pve gear is banned in arena then we can talk about saving carebears from being embarrassed in arena.

And no M+15 isn't some massive achievement, it was a few weeks ago maybe but it's probably easier to do a +15 than hit 1800 with a non-meta spec.

[ymirsson]

PvP was the dominant point of the game for most of its peak years.

Would you please be so kind and share the drugs you're consuming?

[prwraith]

PvP was the dominant point of the game for most of its peak years. Are you seriously claiming that M+ is more popular than arena? Do you have any clue how ridiculous that statement is? M+ is fringe content with MDI viewer numbers only a tiny fraction of what arena had before twitch even existed. FAR more people do arena than M+, even now.

Just get that straight for the pve carebears on here. When pve gear is banned in arena then we can talk about saving carebears from being embarrassed in arena.

And no M+15 isn't some massive achievement, it was a few weeks ago maybe but it's probably easier to do a +15 than hit 1800 with a non-meta spec.

I'm not even going to start disecting this. Holy jesus.

[Lynkeus]

I'm not even going to start disecting this. Holy jesus.

He is clearly onto something. Just ignore.

So Raiders cried and screwed with Mythic+ loots and now its PvP's turn? I see a pattern here.

[Gaidax]

Blizzard really dropped the ball with loot. And it's not PvP loot fault, blaming PvP vendor is like old man yelling at clouds. The problem is not with PvP loot, problem is that PvE loot system is royally fucked and in my opinion the biggest issue is actually in raiding where you by definition have a very finite amount of attempts at loot per week.

With Bonus Rolls eliminated and loot being reduced to 3 pieces per 20 people, while it being complete unrestrained RNG when it comes to awards - it leads to absolutely ridiculous cases where you have 2 equally contributing raid members have vastly different rewards to show for that. In anecdotal case of our guild we have player A having 5 drops from ~10 mythic boss kills and player B having 0 drops from about the same.

How does this even make sense? That's literally 6 average ilvl gap right there and neither Player B, nor the guild can't even do shit about it to help because there is no Master Looter and there is 0 player agency in this but to pray for better RNG.

And it's not even that player's A fault, she literally felt bad for others this last kill when she got yet another piece which she can't even trade to help less lucky blokes out. It's fucked up.


In BFA, aside from higher loot amount, you had Bonus Rolls - so at least you were personally guaranteed to eventually get something off the raid, even if RNG boss drops completely fucked you. Because coins had bad luck protection at least and you could choose where to roll them too.

Now? We get less loot and no BLP either. So you have shit like this.

[Jastall]

Blizzard really dropped the ball with loot. And it's not PvP loot fault, blaming PvP vendor is like old man yelling at clouds. The problem is not with PvP loot, problem is that PvE loot system is royally fucked and in my opinion the biggest issue is actually in raiding where you by definition have a very finite amount of attempts at loot per week.

With Bonus Rolls eliminated and loot being reduced to 3 pieces per 20 people, while it being complete unrestrained RNG when it comes to awards - it leads to absolutely ridiculous cases where you have 2 equally contributing raid members have vastly different rewards to show for that. In anecdotal case of our guild we have player A having 5 drops from ~10 mythic boss kills and player B having 0 drops from about the same.

How does this even make sense? That's literally 6 average ilvl gap right there and neither Player B, nor the guild can't even do shit about it to help because there is no Master Looter and there is 0 player agency in this but to pray for better RNG.

And it's not even that player's A fault, she literally felt bad for others this last kill when she got yet another piece which she can't even trade to help less lucky blokes out. It's fucked up.


In BFA, aside from higher loot amount, you had Bonus Rolls - so at least you were personally guaranteed to eventually get something off the raid, even if RNG boss drops completely fucked you. Because coins had bad luck protection at least and you could choose where to roll them too.

Now? We get less loot and no BLP either. So you have shit like this.

Yeah, raids are far too unrewarding, especially for the lower difficulties considering how CN is a bit harder than the average raid. In two weeks of Normal clears and three Heroic bosses I've gotten... 2 items. One bad cloak and one useful belt. M+ has been my main source of gear, and I feel it is globally fine, not too rewarding but it still gives pieces for your time.

IDGAF if PvP is the fastest gear source, I refuse to do it anyway. But at the very least raids shouldn't feel like such a waste of time.

[begemoc]

Based on raider.io I have completed 23 over +10 keys and because of this amazing loot system I was totally forced into PVP to replace my 171 weapons.
Currently stuck with 200 conquest weapon and 184 honour weapon still waiting for ANY weapon to drop from any of m+ keys

https://raider.io/characters/us/barthilas/Cptsnuggles

[ClassicPeon]

PvP was the dominant point of the game for most of its peak years. Are you seriously claiming that M+ is more popular than arena? Do you have any clue how ridiculous that statement is? M+ is fringe content with MDI viewer numbers only a tiny fraction of what arena had before twitch even existed. FAR more people do arena than M+, even now.

Just get that straight for the pve carebears on here. When pve gear is banned in arena then we can talk about saving carebears from being embarrassed in arena.

And no M+15 isn't some massive achievement, it was a few weeks ago maybe but it's probably easier to do a +15 than hit 1800 with a non-meta spec.

PvP was always, always a tatiary thing in wow. Much like fishing.

People try it a little each expansion to see if its changed. Some people do it because they feel they have to. Most people ignore it

[david0925]

PvP was the dominant point of the game for most of its peak years. Are you seriously claiming that M+ is more popular than arena? Do you have any clue how ridiculous that statement is? M+ is fringe content with MDI viewer numbers only a tiny fraction of what arena had before twitch even existed. FAR more people do arena than M+, even now.

Just get that straight for the pve carebears on here. When pve gear is banned in arena then we can talk about saving carebears from being embarrassed in arena.

And no M+15 isn't some massive achievement, it was a few weeks ago maybe but it's probably easier to do a +15 than hit 1800 with a non-meta spec.

No, PvP has always been a niche aspect of the game as PvE has always covered pretty much everything from solo content to 5 man to raiding. I don't think that fact needs to be tied to better or worse rewards, as that is a separate argument, but let's not twist the facts just because you personally probably like pvp more

The primary issue right now is PvP has a much better gear progression route, which is actually a good thing, but not in PvE because Blizzard went overboard with nerfing loot acquisition on top of getting rid of excessive RNG elements like TF (again, this is a good thing imo). Since PvP gearing was not nerfed compared to PvE (you can even it is buffed in comparison), the path of least resistance for gearing becomes doing pvp at least in low rating. Whether this is "forced" is something debatable as the concept of "forced" has always been.

As far as separating pvp and pve gear, as much as I think that makes sense, it's really a no win situation for Blizzard.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

The problem with this is how mind numbing the getting to 1800ish point is. It's like.. game on.. here is the convoke and mind games hit.. which side did it work out for.. reque for like 80% of the games. Sure around that point gear starts to balance out a bit better and skill of players starts to improve. But right now the whole lower brackets is just glass cannon conny ability spam games that I wouldn't even call PvP. More like pull the lever to see who wins RNG fest.