officially confirmerd do 50% less damage then even worst damage dealers...

[AntenoraDK]

Nope! DH was designed to work the way they do. They were designed and tuned to work with the borrowed power. Hunters/Mages/Pallys/DK did more damage than DHs. Just look at any of the MDI runs.....if DH were ZOMG FOTM META it would have been 1 tank 1 healer and 3 DHs. Look at the top 200 leader board for PvP ......there is only like 2 DHs even on it. Demon Hunter isn't the boogie man that the scrubs make them out to be.

DH was FOTM for the entirity of Legion and BFA.

if DH were ZOMG FOTM META it would have been 1 tank 1 healer and 3 DHs.

Fact that DH, especially Havoc was in high demand for all forms of content is enough to consider them "Meta".

[Xaide]

I'm sorry but this is dumb and wrong. Just because you play with a bunch of people worse than you doesn't mean your spec is good.

Watching casuals on mmo discuss class balance is always sad and rarely entertaining. This thread is a shit show of idiots, Havoc is bad rn. Havoc wasn't OP in raid for all or any of BfA really. Those are facts. Move along.

Not comparing myself to other people, per se. I like how you say casual, but the chance of you actually ever hitting a rank anywhere compared to me is very unlikely. Walk away, son.

When you go into a dungeon with m+ higher than lvl 5 and you face a problem of "prioritizing a target" then you will feel how ST dmg is lackluster for Havoc.
Prioritize Hound(hunt?)master in Halls of Atonement? W/E - you are doing your normal rotation and hoping it will die, because you don't have any strong ST-Specific skills.
Prioritize Priests or Hexxers in De Other Side? Same story
Oh wait, maybe prioritize the chain mob in Halls of Atonement, or Mending guy in Halls of Ascension? No, the same story.

I'm not saying aoe dmg is weak. But I would like us to deal significantly more dmg when we decide to spend our fury on Chaos Strikes, which are supposed to be our go-to ST spells, instead of using the fury resource for AOE skills. Shouldn't it be this way? Dump fury on ST - deal more ST dmg. Dump fury on AOE - deal more aoe. Right now this part simply doesn't work since Chaos Strike scaling is pathetic. It barely deals more dmg than demons bite - this should tell you something. Our rotation is basically the same for AOE and ST. This is the problem.

You have a different problem than what everyone else is crying about. Everyone else is crying that Havoc just sucks. Yes, we are getting a 5% buff. Yes, our damage isn't the very best. No, Havoc isn't useless. I have no problems in my M+ 5s or higher, but we also don't depend on the AoE/Cleave spec to burst the focus.

[holywhiskers]

Not comparing myself to other people, per se. I like how you say casual, but the chance of you actually ever hitting a rank anywhere compared to me is very unlikely. Walk away, son.



You have a different problem than what everyone else is crying about. Everyone else is crying that Havoc just sucks. Yes, we are getting a 5% buff. Yes, our damage isn't the very best. No, Havoc isn't useless. I have no problems in my M+ 5s or higher, but we also don't depend on the AoE/Cleave spec to burst the focus.

I know I'm nowhere close to the best, or even that amazing, but my guild was US163 for Nya and making a real shot at HoF this tier with a much better roster. But yeah. You talking about your +5s? I've timed at least a 10 of everything already. And if you're talking about PvP then I just have to say lol.

[Lindon]

Fact that DH, especially Havoc was in high demand for all forms of content is enough to consider them "Meta".

You do know that there were basically only 1 DH in most raids? The only reason for that was chaos brand. DH contributed very little to raids, their damage was not spectacular nor was their raid utility.

The only spot where DH was good was m+ (but worse than some other classes).

[Xaide]

Congrats on doing +10s. I’ll say it again and go more in detail on how I feel. I don’t see much issue in Havoc. As far as single target, it’s decent. It’s not trash, just decent. I do see/have an issue with it, though. I have played with different routes and pathways of upgrades (mostly in SimC) and the investment needed to get your ST going well is kind of high, in my opinion. It will also cause other areas of ours to drop, which is not good.

I never said Havoc didn’t need some changes. I only said that I can basically hold my own and be fine. There are problems that need to be addressed and I see it becoming more apparent in the future. I think Havoc being under the category of being 1 to raid is fine. We are melee and that already hurts. If you bring a DH tank, then the requirement is filled, unfortunately. As far as M+, I’m just not getting the feeling of Havoc is complete trash. On every pull, whether ST, Cleave, or AoE, I’m competing or topping in terms of DPS. I’m in a group where all of us are ex top 20 US raiders. Not to say we are in a spot I would say is perfect, just confused on why there is a ton of crying over Havoc being trash when it’s just outright not true. Can’t be the best at everything when you are a hybrid with 1 dps and 1 tank spec.

[Allseye]

Congrats on doing +10s. I’ll say it again and go more in detail on how I feel. I don’t see much issue in Havoc. As far as single target, it’s decent. It’s not trash, just decent. I do see/have an issue with it, though. I have played with different routes and pathways of upgrades (mostly in SimC) and the investment needed to get your ST going well is kind of high, in my opinion. It will also cause other areas of ours to drop, which is not good.

I never said Havoc didn’t need some changes. I only said that I can basically hold my own and be fine. There are problems that need to be addressed and I see it becoming more apparent in the future. I think Havoc being under the category of being 1 to raid is fine. We are melee and that already hurts. If you bring a DH tank, then the requirement is filled, unfortunately. As far as M+, I’m just not getting the feeling of Havoc is complete trash. On every pull, whether ST, Cleave, or AoE, I’m competing or topping in terms of DPS. I’m in a group where all of us are ex top 20 US raiders. Not to say we are in a spot I would say is perfect, just confused on why there is a ton of crying over Havoc being trash when it’s just outright not true. Can’t be the best at everything when you are a hybrid with 1 dps and 1 tank spec.

Could you share some logs of your raid experiences? I'd like to see if I'm doing something wrong, but its pretty hard to compete with other DD's. If you have some logs of your m+ it's fine too. I like to have a look in pure single target fights (nekrotic wake endboss).

In my experience (im absolutely casual) Havoc cleave seems not bad. Pure single target feels somehow bad.

[unlockedz]

Congrats on doing +10s. I’ll say it again and go more in detail on how I feel. I don’t see much issue in Havoc. As far as single target, it’s decent. It’s not trash, just decent. I do see/have an issue with it, though. I have played with different routes and pathways of upgrades (mostly in SimC) and the investment needed to get your ST going well is kind of high, in my opinion. It will also cause other areas of ours to drop, which is not good.

I never said Havoc didn’t need some changes. I only said that I can basically hold my own and be fine. There are problems that need to be addressed and I see it becoming more apparent in the future. I think Havoc being under the category of being 1 to raid is fine. We are melee and that already hurts. If you bring a DH tank, then the requirement is filled, unfortunately. As far as M+, I’m just not getting the feeling of Havoc is complete trash. On every pull, whether ST, Cleave, or AoE, I’m competing or topping in terms of DPS. I’m in a group where all of us are ex top 20 US raiders. Not to say we are in a spot I would say is perfect, just confused on why there is a ton of crying over Havoc being trash when it’s just outright not true. Can’t be the best at everything when you are a hybrid with 1 dps and 1 tank spec.

My only issue with it is that it's not good for particularly anything.
On bfa i rarely got outcleaved and i was doing above average ST.
Cleave? bring dk/fire/hunter/rogue
ST? bring a rogue/boomie...
My issue is we don't fit, when a melee doesn't fit the odds of getting invited in m+ drops like a rock. I would have liked to be decent at something.
I lose maybe 1k overall if i play vengeance, why would anyone pick havoc?
I always enjoyed having high prio ST dps. Monk on Draenor and havoc after.
Currently i'm tanking, cause in the world of pugs it feels that bad.
But overall it's not that bad unless you try to pug the "limit" of pugs.
Like how in march when i quit people were doing 19/20 in pugs, nobody would want a havoc in one of those cause it's a liability.
I'd like to be wrong

[Sarevokcz]

Could you share some logs of your raid experiences? I'd like to see if I'm doing something wrong, but its pretty hard to compete with other DD's. If you have some logs of your m+ it's fine too. I like to have a look in pure single target fights (nekrotic wake endboss).

In my experience (im absolutely casual) Havoc cleave seems not bad. Pure single target feels somehow bad.

one look at warcraftlogs shows how utter garbage DH ST damage is, Chaos Strike is extremely weak for being the only pure ST ability we have and needs atleast like 30-40% damage increase considering how small part of ST damage it actually is and might actually make talents on first blood row more appealing instead of one being trash and the other meh.

[Lodreh]

INFRATION

WTH is an infration? Did you mean infraction?

[kosajk]

DH currently has 8 buttons in the rotation of the highest simming spec (9 if you include 1 min cd covenant). Namely Felblade , Chaos Strike, Blade Dance , Glaive Tempest , Immolation Aura, Eye Beam , Fel Rush , Vengeful Retreat. It AoE situations the best legendary (Fel Bombardment) adds Glaive Toss in the rotation. Now, how many buttons does your class have ?

playing enh, are you sure you want to go this route?

[ipkonfig]

Weren't you guys FOTM throughout the entire legion and BFA?

You, are NOT bright at all. DH was the LEAST played in BFA. How you were THAT blind to this is beyond me. Mages, Rouges, Warriors, ect were still the most played classes in the game. Please stop being ignorant.

[hulkgor]

You, are NOT bright at all. DH was the LEAST played in BFA. How you were THAT blind to this is beyond me.

How can you say this with a straight face.

[kosajk]

How can you say this with a straight face.

maybe he is playing on private still in mop dunno where his experience come from but from my observations in bfa rogue, druid, monk/dk, DH, mage/warlock/hunter was ben most typical setup for medium/high m+

[sunxsera]

DH was FOTM for the entirity of Legion and BFA.

DH wasn`t fotm in Legion lol. Warlock / Warrior / Rogue was the go to.
In BfA DH was fotm in m+ season 1+3 while rogue, for example, was fotm the whole expansion.
Also the only thing that made DH viable in nyalotha was infinite stars corruption.

If that is "fotm for 2 expansions" then warlocks, rogues, mages, hunter, druid & warriors were also fotm for 2 expansions.

[kosajk]

DH wasn`t fotm in Legion lol. Warlock / Warrior / Rogue was the go to.
In BfA DH was fotm in m+ season 1+3 while rogue, for example, was fotm the whole expansion.
Also the only thing that made DH viable in nyalotha was infinite stars corruption.

If that is "fotm for 2 expansions" then warlocks, rogues, mages, hunter, druid & warriors were also fotm for 2 expansions.

well their were but for a bit different utility each bring with it

[facefist]

DH wasn`t fotm in Legion lol. Warlock / Warrior / Rogue was the go to.
In BfA DH was fotm in m+ season 1+3 while rogue, for example, was fotm the whole expansion.
Also the only thing that made DH viable in nyalotha was infinite stars corruption.

If that is "fotm for 2 expansions" then warlocks, rogues, mages, hunter, druid & warriors were also fotm for 2 expansions.

DH was fotm except in high-end groups for much more than that though. People have this misconception that DH's were overpowered because they dominated low/mid -tier groups. The reason wasn't them being op though, it was because they were so much easier to play than most other classes that even players with low skill could play them to high optimality. When you entered groups which had competitive people, then DH's were on par with others, because other people knew what to do with their classes.

Those people saying "hurrdurr eye-beam go brr op class" are just people who never played with high-end players. High-end players of other classes didn't get destroyed by DH's but low/mid-tier players did for sure.

[sunxsera]

DH was fotm except in high-end groups for much more than that though. People have this misconception that DH's were overpowered because they dominated low/mid -tier groups. The reason wasn't them being op though, it was because they were so much easier to play than most other classes that even players with low skill could play them to high optimality. When you entered groups which had competitive people, then DH's were on par with others, because other people knew what to do with their classes.

Those people saying "hurrdurr eye-beam go brr op class" are just people who never played with high-end players. High-end players of other classes didn't get destroyed by DH's but low/mid-tier players did for sure.

That`s what i wanted to say with my post. People allways see the high burst dmg in low level content and think it´s op. In reality it was never op in high keys / raid. The utility made DH good. But yeah, i totally agree with your post.

[Cracked]

That`s what i wanted to say with my post. People allways see the high burst dmg in low level content and think it´s op. In reality it was never op in high keys / raid. The utility made DH good. But yeah, i totally agree with your post.

Well because the reality is that it is OP for low tier content. Now DH kinda lost even that, but outside of raid I think DH is empirically doing just fine, lots of people rerolled away though, which is not really a bad thing.

[sunxsera]

Well because the reality is that it is OP for low tier content. Now DH kinda lost even that, but outside of raid I think DH is empirically doing just fine, lots of people rerolled away though, which is not really a bad thing.

Still playing my DH, too. It`s fine in M+ .. of course i don`t do 30-40k DPS on big pulls like hunters or mages ... but DH is really not that bad in M+. And i `m pretty sure Hunter`s wild spirits will get nerfed in the next patch.
If anything needs a buff it`s pure ST damage atm. The legendary helps but i don`t think it´s enough. Outside of meta phases the ST is just ... meh.

[Karlz0rz]

I just checked warcraftlogs, and you are still doing better in the top rankings than for example enha shaman :P. So it can't be that bad!