Outland greens vs lvl60 epics.

[RobertMugabe]

Even tier 2.5 will propably last till heroics, but anything below that will get replaced atleast by nagrand.

Nah that won't be the case at all. Even T3 gear is comparable in stats (minus stamina) with the first TBC greens. The only thing that "saves" T3 gear are some of the set bonuses, but all of this is gonna be largely useless at lvl70.

The only reason people raided with high end vanilla gear early in TBC was because the itemisation at that point was very bad, however blizz has massively buffed every item in TBC (while nerfing vanilla items and straight up disabling many effects past lvl61). We will with a 99% likelyhood get the buffed TBC items from the start, which will render pretty much all vanilla items useless at lvl70, except for a few select items.

[Belloc]

people cleared kara in T3, you won't replace things until you start getting tier bonuses.

They cleared it with Tier 3 gear because they were racing and they were still capable of clearing it in Tier 3 gear.. If they were wearing level 65+ dungeon blues, they'd have cleared it even faster. If they were wearing heroic dungeon gear, the content would've been a joke.

You can compare the gear yourself, if you want.

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Nah that won't be the case at all. Even T3 gear is comparable in stats (minus stamina) with the first TBC greens. The only thing that "saves" T3 gear are some of the set bonuses, but all of this is gonna be largely useless at lvl70.

The only reason people raided with high end vanilla gear early in TBC was because the itemisation at that point was very bad, however blizz has massively buffed every item in TBC (while nerfing vanilla items and straight up disabling many effects past lvl61). We will with a 99% likelyhood get the buffed TBC items from the start, which will render pretty much all vanilla items useless at lvl70, except for a few select items.

I can't remember with certainty, but the funny thing about this is that the gear they updated was Tier 4 gear and heroic epics. I don't remember them adjusting blues at all, which means that they were automatically better than Tier 3 once they hit a certain ilvl (which was pre-level 70).

[Sombrero]

How far did you go with tier3?

I don't remember, honestly. But I assume it wasn't long after that you replaced T3 piece by piece by other Karazhan items?! Not sure if I waited for T4 to replace T3 but I don't think so.

[ztkraptor]

They cleared it with Tier 3 gear because they were racing and they were still capable of clearing it in Tier 3 gear.. If they were wearing level 65+ dungeon blues, they'd have cleared it even faster. If they were wearing heroic dungeon gear, the content would've been a joke.

You can compare the gear yourself, if you want.

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I can't remember with certainty, but the funny thing about this is that the gear they updated was Tier 4 gear and heroic epics. I don't remember them adjusting blues at all, which means that they were automatically better than Tier 3 once they hit a certain ilvl (which was pre-level 70).

My guild cleared most of Kara in T3, not because we were racing at all, but because the Set bonuses made it better. We geared our tanks in some higher Stam gear and that was it. THere was no reason to go crazy until you grabbed T4. Plenty of other guilds did the same thing. Between not wanting to get rid of the gear we worked for and really things not being "that much" of an upgrade from a DPS and healer perspective.

[RobertMugabe]

I can't remember with certainty, but the funny thing about this is that the gear they updated was Tier 4 gear and heroic epics. I don't remember them adjusting blues at all, which means that they were automatically better than Tier 3 once they hit a certain ilvl (which was pre-level 70).

They did change it across the board AFAIK, however yeah the early greens and blues were good already. Dunno about heroic epics, but Karazhan gear + T4 is being well remembered for being shit early on as it was actually worse than heroic gear (you needed to do heroics to unlock kara and T4 in the first place, so that was a bit ironical).

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My guild cleared most of Kara in T3, not because we were racing at all, but because the Set bonuses made it better. We geared our tanks in some higher Stam gear and that was it. THere was no reason to go crazy until you grabbed T4. Plenty of other guilds did the same thing. Between not wanting to get rid of the gear we worked for and really things not being "that much" of an upgrade from a DPS and healer perspective.

Yeah but WHEN did you do it? You might've cleared Kara in T3 gear during the early days of 2.0 TBC, but they've made some very significant changes to the items in I believe 2.1 (because some vanilla items were still OP in Black Temple, so something had to be done) and even before that, which made T3 useless. I also remember it very well that they've also disabled many "special" item effects entirely or level restricted them (works until lvl61 stuff).

We're (almost) definitely getting the spells, talents, items, aura changes etc. from patch 2.4 so keep that in mind.

[Akibaboy]

Wasnt it that major problem naxx raiders talked about? People changed some epics for greenies back in the days, it pissed the most raiders off for real "I DIDNT RAID FOR CHANGE IT IN A SEC AFTER NEXT XPAC RELEASED!1". Afair people always change stuff after 5-6 levels, atleast It always felt that way
But I believe there are some weapons you use even after lvl 70, Thunderfury If i recall? Maybe T3 bonuses, I dont know tbh.

I think it was a shock to a lot of players because...
1) WoW's explosive growth meant this was their first MMO and that this was the first time they'd experienced an expansion release.
2) Itemization was pretty horrible in Vanilla and they'd addressed that in Vanilla's later patches and definitely TBC, but an overwhelming majority of players didn't touch AQ40 or Naxx and were in the introductory terribly itemized gear. A similar effect to when Diablo 3 was retooled and upon login random gear drops were obliterating the stuff people had spent actual money on.
3) In order to not need to tune TBC's content for a wide range of gear, the quest & dungeon stuff needed to close the gap between Vanilla's have or have-nots otherwise you would have a fragmented playerbase where either half of them had no reason to do content that gave bad gear, or half had no hope of surviving the content.

So while everyone cried foul, it really was the best thing to do for the health of the game to invalidate a large chunk of Vanilla's gear almost immediately. I think this a good reason for them to preserve Vanilla-only servers so that those who want to keep their cutting edge power for all time can.

[pinkz]

So as the title says, are lvl57-60 outland greens comparable to any lvl60 epics?

no. the old starter BC green/blue will replace your van wow raids epics and especially tier sets with set bonuses is the biggest lie ever told.

the only truth on 57-60 greens, was...if you were late in van wow, there was no point in raiding BWL, AQ, NAXX due to time investment, the 57-60 greens were way more powerful than van wow 60 greens, blues, boe epics, and crafted.

many of the self made van wow and BC experts you see youtubing/streaming have admitted, mostly started van wow late. were still in catch up in BC, and really went full bore in WOTLK. you don't have to have started in WOTLK to be a wrath baby. they have also admitted they went to van wow private servers in BC or after WOTLK because they never got to fully play or finish it.

[Cracked]

As the most extreme comparison:

Atiesh, the arguably most valuable item from Naxx as far as power goes:
https://tbc-twinhead.twinstar.cz/?item=22630

Best obtainable caster weapon from TBC QUESTS:
https://tbc-twinhead.twinstar.cz/?item=30011

First available caster staff from raids, (Curator, kara):
https://tbc-twinhead.twinstar.cz/?item=28633

So as you can see, the quest staff doesn't compare to Atiesh, but as soon as you get a raid piece drop, you will replace even the most valuable piece from Naxx (disclaimer, you might play Atiesh for a little bit because of the party-wide buff). The raw stats alone are a huge boost (double the amount of stam & int).



In case you are thinking "yeah, but that's just the weapon", here's a similar comparison for a dps warrior chest:

Naxx BiS:
https://tbc-twinhead.twinstar.cz/?item=23226

Quest BiS:
https://tbc-twinhead.twinstar.cz/?item=31548

Heroic Dungeon piece:
https://tbc-twinhead.twinstar.cz/?item=27906

... it only gets better with ANY raid gear.


TL;DR: Naxx gear can be good until you get a piece of gear at level 70.

[Kathandira]

As the most extreme comparison:

Atiesh, the arguably most valuable item from Naxx as far as power goes:
https://tbc-twinhead.twinstar.cz/?item=22630

Best obtainable caster weapon from TBC QUESTS:
https://tbc-twinhead.twinstar.cz/?item=30011

First available caster staff from raids, (Curator, kara):
https://tbc-twinhead.twinstar.cz/?item=28633

So as you can see, the quest staff doesn't compare to Atiesh, but as soon as you get a raid piece drop, you will replace even the most valuable piece from Naxx (disclaimer, you might play Atiesh for a little bit because of the party-wide buff). The raw stats alone are a huge boost (double the amount of stam & int).



In case you are thinking "yeah, but that's just the weapon", here's a similar comparison for a dps warrior chest:

Naxx BiS:
https://tbc-twinhead.twinstar.cz/?item=23226

Quest BiS:
https://tbc-twinhead.twinstar.cz/?item=31548

Heroic Dungeon piece:
https://tbc-twinhead.twinstar.cz/?item=27906

... it only gets better with ANY raid gear.


TL;DR: Naxx gear can be good until you get a piece of gear at level 70.

Since I don't have the time. What does it look like when you do such a break down of AQ40 geared players? Last I checked, the amount of Classic players who are completing Naxx is still pretty low. I believe there is a larger amount of players who got as far as completing AQ40.

[dwightyo39]

Isn't it amazing how many posters here had full tier 3 before TBC launched?

[Kathandira]

Isn't it amazing how many posters here had full tier 3 before TBC launched?

Back in Vanilla, we were working on Naxx before TBC dropped. Had a couple pieces. I was a Resto Druid, so I had little competition for drops. I was on the Medivh server, which had quite a few hardcore raiding guilds.

[Zero Wing]

The inferiority of lvl 60 raiding epics to early Outland greens is somewhat overstated. Example: the Crystalfire Staff off of Omor the Unscarred in Normal Hellfire Ramparts is strictly inferior to the Shadow Wing Focus Staff off of Firemaw in Blackwing Lair.

[Machismo]

The HFP stuff is better than most of the MC and BWL gear. There's things like trinkets that still last a while.

As for the Naxx gear, very few people had much Naxx gear when TBC dropped. But most of that lasted a while, and depending on the piece, was viable in T4.

[rogoth]

assuming blizz does to TBC servers what they did previously and has the end of game patch applied with all the QoL updates and changes in place from the getgo you will be replacing all your gear from quest greens/blues and any dungeon drop blues almost instantly if you care about stats, the only weapons that have some staying power from classic content i would say are the 2h dps weapons for warrior/paladin (might of menethil for example), and thunderfury for tanks because of just how good it was for threat generation and aoe tanking especially on warrior that couldn't really aoe tank, aside from those outliers most items have a quest reward or dungeon drop that can be used to replace it.

[khazmodan]

I remember grinding for weeks to get the grand marshal castor staff at the end of Vanilla and replacing it so fast in BC that I have ever since looked at long grinds like that for one item as just another heartbreaking morale crusher. Better to have fun while getting decent stuff and leave the long grinds to the younger players that have yet to learn the meaninglessness of the highest achievements in a video game.

[lozza]

I recall having most my T2 gear during HFP but was replacing them with Blue rewards from quests, then greens might have replaced the rest in the blades edge/netherstorm areas. Never did Naxx myself back during vanilla so cant speak for those who had T3 gear but i imagine it will stick around for most the questing of TBC

[Bigbazz]

Naxx weapons are comparable with level70/heroic dungeon blues. A few items scattered throughout Vanilla raids have lasting value as pre-raid and some slightly beyond that but the majority will be replaced. Some examples for you from a DPS Warrior outlook.


Slayer's crest - trinket from Sapphiron is genuinely something you could realistically still have equipped going into Black Temple, it's comparable with Hourglass of the Unraveller which many people still had equipped when they killed Illidan. Drake Fang Talisman is also not terrible, and for Rogues probably still really decent.

Nerubian Slavemaker - as a pure stat stick for Fury Warriors is comparable to some of the ranged weapons from Karazhan or even the Gladiator S1 weapon, but it's still worse than a green quest item from Netherstorm, you also have crafted felsteel knifes, thrallmar exalted bow, Prince Malchezaar bow or if you're feeling like spending gold, the Doomwalker BOE. So there isn't really any reason you would use it.

Band of Unnatural Forces - From Loatheb is comparable with Badge vendor/Karazhan drops, not unreasonable to expect you still have that on through T5.

Onslaught Girdle - (from Molten Core) is comparable with questing or crafting belts you'd have otherwise equipped for pre-raid.

Girdle of the Mentor - Razuvious belt is comparable with the Sethekk Halls blue or the Epic Leather belt from Chess in Karazhan.

Gauntlets of Annihilation - from Cthun are comparable with the D3 gloves from Heroic Blood Furnace, better than Gladiator S1 gloves in pure dps stats, though Ragesteel and Fel Leather crafted blues are far better, but also consider that it's pretty normal to clear T5 with either Fel Leather or Ragesteel equipped, they are stronger than T4 even.

[Belloc]

no. the old starter BC green/blue will replace your van wow raids epics and especially tier sets with set bonuses is the biggest lie ever told.

Starter BC greens and blues absolutely replaced tier 1 and tier 2 epics, no questions asked. The early-level socket pieces replaced tier 3 epics. Level 70 blues were absolutely better than any items available in Vanilla, period. None of this is a lie.

[gaymer77]

The Chinese guild who got region first Illidan was still in mostly T3 when they got the kill so that should tell you when you'd be replacing T3...

[Cracked]

The Chinese guild who got region first Illidan was still in mostly T3 when they got the kill so that should tell you when you'd be replacing T3...

This is such an uniformed post, my eyes hurt.