Mistake in chronicle 3

[Shadowferal]

I think that it needs to be emphasized that what is true "now," is only true until the next retcon.

"Mistakes" would imply a consistent coherent stable storyline...a timeline to follow. We don't have that.

[StationaryHawk]

There's a reason why I didn't say it was written to be accurate but consistent to the developers understanding at the time.

This is a nonsense statement. Blizzard made it clear what the intention of Chronicle was, so there's no room for interpretations of how it was written.

[huth]

I said what I said. The idea of fallacies even existing in the Physical Universe is carried out by the Titans and their drive for order. That way, because fallacies exist, that means arguments must be provided with evidence, etc in order to make total sense. Without fallacies and their existence, debates wouldn't work the way they do in reality. Get what I mean? The Titans carried out the constructs of Order into reality. Fallacies and weak arguments are, as a result, constructs of order, since they're the cause of what happens when your arguments or debates with others lack structure, sound reasoning, etc.

I think you need to look up what fallacies are. What you're saying is complete nonsense.

Fallacies are a simple result of logic existing. There's no need to actively ensure their existence.

[TheFirstOnes]

I think you need to look up what fallacies are. What you're saying is complete nonsense.

Fallacies are a simple result of logic existing. There's no need to actively ensure their existence.

There are multiple definitions, but I'll just use the logic one: "a failure in reasoning which renders an argument invalid."

Just means Order caused logic to exist, as well as other rules which govern the physical Universe, whereas Disorder counterbalances it, and even affects pieces of order itself, therefore logic. Hence why fallacies are a thing. It's a mix of Order and Disorder. Faulty logic.

[darkoms]

well...lets just say it always ends the same way: just like it did right now^^

anyway back on topic

I was not banned because of you.
But back to our topic. Can you finally give a normal proof that the Lich King is much stronger than Mannoroth, and Xuen will eat Cenarius? How did you determine these strength levels?
It doesn't matter that you are a fan of NerZhul and not Arthas. You are a fan of the Lich King and the Scourge and you have demonstrated this several times already. Maybe you will finally understand that you simply do not know lore as well as I do and stop arguing something without the opportunity to prove it? But of course, if you have proof of your claims about the Lich King and Mannoroth, and Xuen and Cenarius, I would be glad to see them. Or just add IMHO next time.

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it make no sense that cenarius is stronger than the Lich king

Why? And funny, a lot of people also talked about Lei Shen same before the tweet.

[TheFirstOnes]

Yeah, we really don't know the true power of Xuen compared to the other Wild Gods outside of the fact that he got slammed by Lei'shen's power in the Chronicle.

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Also, why the fuck is Lei'shen so fucking huge in the Chronicle? Man's legs are bigger than entire fuckin temples and towns.

[Aucald]

Also, why the fuck is Lei'shen so fucking huge in the Chronicle? Man's legs are bigger than entire fuckin temples and towns.

I think that's just artistic perspective and/or license.

[TheFirstOnes]

I think that's just artistic perspective and/or license.

Or it's just their actual size. Makes sense, cause if the Titans could manipulate their size, there's no reason creations of the Titans (Or, at the very least, beings empowered by them in a way) can't do the same. Even beings of Chaos and shit like that can manipulate their size. I mean, look at Kil'jaeden.

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Archimonde was also gigantic in WC3, and the Chronicle. He at the very least was about half the height of Nordrassil. Meanwhile, in WoD, the guy's like...not even half the size of Nordrassil. He's bigger than us by a ton, sure, but in game Nordrassil is fuckin huge.

[Aucald]

Or it's just their actual size. Makes sense, cause if the Titans could manipulate their size, there's no reason creations of the Titans (Or, at the very least, beings empowered by them in a way) can't do the same. Even beings of Chaos and shit like that can manipulate their size. I mean, look at Kil'jaeden.

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Archimonde was also gigantic in WC3, and the Chronicle. He at the very least was about half the height of Nordrassil. Meanwhile, in WoD, the guy's like...not even half the size of Nordrassil. He's bigger than us by a ton, sure, but in game Nordrassil is fuckin huge.

Possibly, we do know the August Celestials were able to take on different forms - such as when Yu'lon takes the appearance of a young Pandaren girl. Archimonde and presumably Kil'jaeden were definitely capable of altering their size at will, as Archimonde does so in the War of the Ancients trilogy to attack and ultimately kill Malorne at Hyjal.

[TheFirstOnes]

Possibly, we do know the August Celestials were able to take on different forms - such as when Yu'lon takes the appearance of a young Pandaren girl. Archimonde and presumably Kil'jaeden were definitely capable of altering their size at will, as Archimonde does so in the War of the Ancients trilogy to attack and ultimately kill Malorne at Hyjal.

Yep. Also, presumably Kil'jaeden? I mean, I would imagine he could definitely change his size. He was MUCH bigger at the Sunwell, as well as Niskara compared to when we face him at full power at the Twisting Nether on his command ship.

[Aucald]

Yep. Also, presumably Kil'jaeden? I mean, I would imagine he could definitely change his size. He was MUCH bigger at the Sunwell, as well as Niskara compared to when we face him at full power at the Twisting Nether on his command ship.

We've never seen him actually do it, but I assume he could because Archimonde could and Kil'jaeden was often considered the more personally powerful of the two Eredar generals of Sargeras. At Niskara and the Black Temple he appears as a projection, in which he could be as large as he wanted because he wasn't physically present - and his size at the Sunwell wasn't really that much larger than he appeared during his fight in the Legion raid. That being said, I'm pretty confident he could alter his size if he wanted to.

[TheFirstOnes]

We've never seen him actually do it, but I assume he could because Archimonde could and Kil'jaeden was often considered the more personally powerful of the two Eredar generals of Sargeras. At Niskara and the Black Temple he appears as a projection, in which he could be as large as he wanted because he wasn't physically present - and his size at the Sunwell wasn't really that much larger than he appeared during his fight in the Legion raid. That being said, I'm pretty confident he could alter his size if he wanted to.

He wasn't a projection. He was actually at Niskara there. The only time he's a projection is during the Demon Hunter's encounter with him at the Fel Hammer. He himself was present at Niskara so that he could be amused by our final battle with the duo of stupid ass demon hunters whose names I legit just forgot about.

Also, whatcha mean regarding the Sunwell? KJ was moreso comparable to Archimonde in height when we fought him at the Sunwell, and he's a lil smaller now, in Legion (Likely because he wanted to fight us on fair grounds and equal footing at his command ship).

I know we never actually saw KJ change height, but we also never saw the Titans change height either, yet the Seat of the Pantheon and the Titan spirits were moreso the size of Keepers when we went there. And Sargeras' size scaled to that of the Seat itself during his imprisonment. I daresay he's the only time we actually see a Titan change size in game.

Which makes me wonder, do ALL Cosmic Pantheons wield that ability to change height? If so, could Denathrius, or the Archon be as big as their respective realm, or at the very least be planet sized like a Titan? or?

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Maybe not like a Titan, since Titan's are physical manifestations of the cosmos itself that originated from the Realm of Order.

[darkoms]

Let me explain to you gentlemen that you are both right.
When asked on Twitter if the size of Xuen and Lei Shen shown on the Chronicle art was real or an exaggeration, one of the Chronicle artists said it was both. Also, the Titan Keepers can actually change their size. In Dawn of the Aspects, Malygos noticed Tyr growing larger during their meeting in the cave.

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Yeah, we really don't know the true power of Xuen compared to the other Wild Gods outside of the fact that he got slammed by Lei'shen's power in the Chronicle.

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Also, why the fuck is Lei'shen so fucking huge in the Chronicle? Man's legs are bigger than entire fuckin temples and towns.

Exactly, we have no idea how strong he is compared to Cenarius and yet this guy says that Xuen will eat Cenarius. Why did he say that? Because he wants his favorite character, The Lich King, to appear stronger. I hate it when subjectivity and favoritism makes people distort or invent lore.

[TheFirstOnes]

Yeah, kinda doesn't help that a Nightmare empowered Cenarius (Still Cenarius, however) was capable of challenging the Heroes of Azeroth with the Artifacts plus Malfurion during the Emerald Nightmare raid. Meanwhile, Xuen can barely handle the Thunder King, who the champions of the Alliance and the Horde defeat as soon as he was about to return to his original prime power (He likely wasn't at FP at the ToT raid, but he was still pretty tough). We also best the August Celestials collectives during the trials at the Timeless Isle.

So, in regards to stuff in game, I'd argue Cenarius is more powerful (Despite his Old God buffs). Especially considering he's the spawn of Malorne and Elune, as well as the lord of the forests.

Cenarius is also stated to be among the most powerful Wild Gods (Like Goldrinn, etc), while Xuen...isn't stated to be near that level of power at all.

[darkoms]

Yeah, kinda doesn't help that a Nightmare empowered Cenarius (Still Cenarius, however) was capable of challenging the Heroes of Azeroth with the Artifacts plus Malfurion during the Emerald Nightmare raid. Meanwhile, Xuen can barely handle the Thunder King, who the champions of the Alliance and the Horde defeat as soon as he was about to return to his original prime power (He likely wasn't at FP at the ToT raid, but he was still pretty tough). We also best the August Celestials collectives during the trials at the Timeless Isle.

So, in regards to stuff in game, I'd argue Cenarius is more powerful (Despite his Old God buffs). Especially considering he's the spawn of Malorne and Elune, as well as the lord of the forests.

Cenarius is also stated to be among the most powerful Wild Gods (Like Goldrinn, etc), while Xuen...isn't stated to be near that level of power at all.

Xuen has grown stronger since his last battle with Lei Shen. And I am absolutely sure that Lei Shen was not at his full strength during the meeting with the raid. Didn't he lose the soul of Aman'Thul after his first death?

Again, I don't know where you got this from. Xuen is named one of the greatest wild gods in the Chronicles, as is Cenarius. In fact, I believe Xuen is the second most powerful wild god after Malorne. I just don't think Xuen can easily defeat Cenarius, rather it will be a long and hard battle.

[Aleksej89]

LK had the power to control and create undead and other necromantic things the dreadlords originally developed.
In terms of direct combat LK is nothing special - actually in WOTLK every time LK came out to personally fight he lost and had to retreat or was killed.
People thinking LKing was good at direct combat are just using fanfiction and fanboyism.

Cenarius was below titan keepers (Ra, odyn etc) in power and we have seen titan keepers get overwhelmed and defeated by lesser beings.
What made Cenarius formidable was that he was surrounded by nature that he could manipulate and had tons of allies that would support each other.
Chronicle was probably written with intent to hype up WODraenor or perhaps the people writing it just took some "artistic liberties".

[TheFirstOnes]

Xuen has grown stronger since his last battle with Lei Shen. And I am absolutely sure that Lei Shen was not at his full strength during the meeting with the raid. Didn't he lose the soul of Aman'Thul after his first death?

Again, I don't know where you got this from. Xuen is named one of the greatest wild gods in the Chronicles, as is Cenarius. In fact, I believe Xuen is the second most powerful wild god after Malorne. I just don't think Xuen can easily defeat Cenarius, rather it will be a long and hard battle.

Pretty sure the Chronicles mentioned he lost it, yeah. But even if it were still intact, he was weaker in the Throne of Thunder. Hell, the whole point of the raid was for us to stop him before he grew back into FP.

Also, really? Nothing mentions he's second to Malorne, but it does mention he was also among the greats, yeah.

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LK had the power to control and create undead and other necromantic things the dreadlords originally developed.
In terms of direct combat LK is nothing special - actually in WOTLK every time LK came out to personally fight he lost and had to retreat or was killed.
People thinking LKing was good at direct combat are just using fanfiction and fanboyism.

Cenarius was below titan keepers (Ra, odyn etc) in power and we have seen titan keepers get overwhelmed and defeated by lesser beings.
What made Cenarius formidable was that he was surrounded by nature that he could manipulate and had tons of allies that would support each other.
Chronicle was probably written with intent to hype up WODraenor or perhaps the people writing it just took some "artistic liberties".

The Titan Keepers were mostly fucked over by Yogg'Saron's deceptive whispers. We only defeated most of them because they were extremely weak by the time we got to them.

"In terms of direct combat LK is nothing special - actually in WOTLK every time LK came out to personally fight he lost and had to retreat or was killed." There were like...2 where he tried to face us alone. Once in ICC, with the Ashbringer. And the second one being before that...WITH THE ASHBRINGER! Not trying to hype up the LK or anything...

But the Ashbringer is pretty lit.

[darkoms]

Pretty sure the Chronicles mentioned he lost it, yeah. But even if it were still intact, he was weaker in the Throne of Thunder. Hell, the whole point of the raid was for us to stop him before he grew back into FP.

Also, really? Nothing mentions he's second to Malorne, but it does mention he was also among the greats, yeah.

This is not mentioned in the Chronicles, it would just be strange if he did not lose his soul after death. Um, turned into what? I don't think the raid mentions anything about the return of his power. Also in the raid, he is not even fully focused on fighting the heroes. He constantly runs up to the generators and charges them with his power. It essentially acts as a battery for the rest of the palace.

I said that I BELIEVE that he is second after Malorne. I THINK. I GUESS. It's my PERSONAL OPINION.

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The Titan Keepers were mostly fucked over by Yogg'Saron's deceptive whispers. We only defeated most of them because they were extremely weak by the time we got to them.

"In terms of direct combat LK is nothing special - actually in WOTLK every time LK came out to personally fight he lost and had to retreat or was killed." There were like...2 where he tried to face us alone. Once in ICC, with the Ashbringer. And the second one being before that...WITH THE ASHBRINGER! Not trying to hype up the LK or anything...

But the Ashbringer is pretty lit.

The Titan Keepers were not weakened by Yogg-Saron. They lost most of their power after the ordering of Azeroth. When Tyr encountered two C'Thraxxi, it was stated that he only had a shadow of his original strength.

[TheFirstOnes]

This is not mentioned in the Chronicles, it would just be strange if he did not lose his soul after death. Um, turned into what? I don't think the raid mentions anything about the return of his power. Also in the raid, he is not even fully focused on fighting the heroes. He constantly runs up to the generators and charges them with his power. It essentially acts as a battery for the rest of the palace.

I said that I BELIEVE that he is second after Malorne. I THINK. I GUESS. It's my PERSONAL OPINION.

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The Titan Keepers were not weakened by Yogg-Saron. They lost most of their power after the ordering of Azeroth. When Tyr encountered two C'Thraxxi, it was stated that he only had a shadow of his original strength.

Yeah, that's why I said even IF it were the case. Also, he was focused on us, but he was basically run as a power source himself, basically charging the citadel up so that the citadel's defenses would be used against us. So, maybe he was at FP there? Idk, the fight was cool asf tho in MoP.

Regarding the Keepers, sure? That's a good argument. Makes me wonder if Odyn was weakened when we fought him. I don't think so? Could be wrong though.

[Aucald]

He wasn't a projection. He was actually at Niskara there. The only time he's a projection is during the Demon Hunter's encounter with him at the Fel Hammer. He himself was present at Niskara so that he could be amused by our final battle with the duo of stupid ass demon hunters whose names I legit just forgot about.

I don't recall ever seeing him there aside from the projection, but it was some time ago and I can't keep all the Order Hall campaigns straight in my head. Which campaign does he physically show up in?

Also, whatcha mean regarding the Sunwell? KJ was moreso comparable to Archimonde in height when we fought him at the Sunwell, and he's a lil smaller now, in Legion (Likely because he wanted to fight us on fair grounds and equal footing at his command ship).

The Eredar generals are always quite massive, but I mean the sizes between the fight in Sunwell and at the end of the Tomb of Sargeras raids are pretty close. Archimonde at the close of WC3: RoC was the size of a tall building as he grappled with Nordrassil in his attempt to drain it (as compared to his size in the Hyjal raid during TBC).

I know we never actually saw KJ change height, but we also never saw the Titans change height either, yet the Seat of the Pantheon and the Titan spirits were moreso the size of Keepers when we went there. And Sargeras' size scaled to that of the Seat itself during his imprisonment. I daresay he's the only time we actually see a Titan change size in game.

There's similar consternation with Titans as concerns their size and their ability to change it - mostly hinging on the reason that the Titans didn't directly contend with the Old Gods is because they were too massive to do so (according to Chronicle Vol. 1). Yet if they could alter their sizes at will they could've taken the fight directly to them the same way the Keepers later do. So that leaves open the question as to whether the Titans can alter their size, or if they lost their massiveness as a result of their original deaths, or if the reduction in size is some kind of property of the Seat of the Pantheon.